Clodagh
Well-Known Member
When they are done as pups it must have less long term consequences I’d have thought?
The arguments for and against docking tails
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
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maisie06
Well-Known Member
I would think so, neither are docked very short ,,,the cocker has a third off so his tail sits at his hock, the springer has only really had a few cm off the end, the vet doing his litter did leave them a little long for my taste!
Mule
Well-Known Member
It's banned here in Ireland. However I still see young dogs with docked tails. My friend has a rescue who had it done (prior to her owning the dog) The DIY brigade haven't and no doubt won't stop.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Then their owners should have their dogs removed and be heavily fined.
I am not convinced that the majority of owners would know if their dogs were experiencing phantom pain or not.
Mule
Well-Known Member
These tend to be people who break multiple laws so the more serious crimes are dealt with and others let pass. If that weren't the case they would be imprisoned far more frequently. I don't want to wade in to speaking negatively or using stereotypes about a communitiy but this approach keeps the peace. Needless to say not all members of the community I'm referring to break the law.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I've just looked on the BVA website for their current stance on the routine docking of uninjured puppy tails. They are strongly against it. But still the practice persists, and vets are still found who will perform it.
https://www.bva.co.uk/take-action/our-policies/tail-docking-in-dogs/
'What's our view?
Tail docking should be banned as a procedure for all breeds of dogs, unless it is carried out by a veterinary surgeon for medical reasons (eg injury).
Puppies suffer unnecessary pain as a result of tail docking and are deprived of a vital form of canine expression in later life. Research published in Vet Record found that approximately 500 dogs would need to be docked in order to prevent a single tail injury.
We continue to call for a complete ban on tail docking of puppies for non-therapeutic reasons across the UK.'
Good, some numbers. If that's the BVA view, then I'm with them.
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GinaGeo
Well-Known Member
I used to be anti-dock. But I now have a working cocker. He had a 3/4 dock when he came to me.
And whilst I can’t speak for other breeds, I am now of the opinion that a spaniel is better off with a docked tail.
Their natural tail is very long and very thin. They’re more like a schooling whip than Labrador who’s tail would be like a jumping batton.
They spend most of their time in thick bush with their tail going like helicopter propellor. It’s nothing to do with tail hair getting caught. And all to do with with their whip like tail actually snapping and splitting.
An amputation is very hard on an adult dog and tail injuries are difficult to heal.
YCBM they probably should have been selectively bred for a more suitable tail.
And whilst I can’t speak for other breeds, I am now of the opinion that a spaniel is better off with a docked tail.
Their natural tail is very long and very thin. They’re more like a schooling whip than Labrador who’s tail would be like a jumping batton.
They spend most of their time in thick bush with their tail going like helicopter propellor. It’s nothing to do with tail hair getting caught. And all to do with with their whip like tail actually snapping and splitting.
An amputation is very hard on an adult dog and tail injuries are difficult to heal.
YCBM they probably should have been selectively bred for a more suitable tail.
suebou
Well-Known Member
As part of the campaign to get the law reversed in Scotland to allow docking of working spaniels, we have peer reviewed evidence that it is a vital tool to ensure these dogs well being. The difficulties of tail amputation in adult dogs, particularly spaniels, is well recorded and generally not liked by vets and particularly nurses who know how hard it is to heal a very short dock after the spinal nerve has connected. A sharp nick, with local anesthetic used is minimally invasive, causes minimal distress and prevents what can be horrible, long recovery and repeated major surgery as an adult. I am not advocacting the docking of terriers, boxers, dobes etc but as someone who has working spaniels, I can assure people we will never work another that wasn’t shortened(no more than 1/3) as a pup. The pain, distress and long term impact is far more stressful (imo) than a tiny, pain free, procedure at three days.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Have you ever held pups having their tails cut? It is neither 'tiny' nor stress-free. Nor is it painless.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
My SIL has a Springer who’s had her tail amputated. She’s not a working dog, but It was continually injured because she wagged it so much on walls etc. The reason for docking though was when it accidentally got shut in a car door. IMO the dog would have been saved pain if it had been done at the first sign of injury.
My JRT who is 14 has a docked tail.
I’ve no idea why. Thankfully it’s not too short that she can’t communicate with it.
As a practice it reminds me of a friend who was Jswish and had her baby boy circumcised at a very young age. Why would you put them through it through choice? This was 20 odd years ago but no anaesthetic was used then either.
My JRT who is 14 has a docked tail.
I’ve no idea why. Thankfully it’s not too short that she can’t communicate with it.
As a practice it reminds me of a friend who was Jswish and had her baby boy circumcised at a very young age. Why would you put them through it through choice? This was 20 odd years ago but no anaesthetic was used then either.
Mule
Well-Known Member
They should really use an anaesthetic for circumcision
Hopefully they do now
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
I'm not sure about spaniels but there's very little you can do with a cropped or docked dog from the working group within FCI rules, so that's most showing and sports. I know people in the US who offer to leave Dobe pups 'natural' as a result if exporting.
There are two Boxers working at my club and they look excellent with tails. The Rotts and Dobes look normal to my eye, I'm used to it. My friends who bred OES have stopped breeding and showing but were against the ban for the reason of how much mess it would cause in dogs with full coats ?
There are two Boxers working at my club and they look excellent with tails. The Rotts and Dobes look normal to my eye, I'm used to it. My friends who bred OES have stopped breeding and showing but were against the ban for the reason of how much mess it would cause in dogs with full coats ?
suebou
Well-Known Member
I hold every pup we dock. If the local is done right and the vet is quick, many (most?) do not do more than a tiny yelp which stops as soon as they’re back with mum. It’s healed the next day.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Well I’m glad you’re cool with it; I have never forgiven myself for helping the vet do a litter of Rottie pups. It is a barbaric practise.
druid
Well-Known Member
It's not banned in Ireland, it's restricted to working gundogs breeds, must be done by 5 days of age and documentation must be produced to convince the vet that the bitch and litter are working.
I'm a vet and I work my gundogs. I dock my own pups, one squeak and they are back with mum and it's over. I've had two undocked working dogs, both damaged their tails. Picture attached is my young bitch, did this damage hunting fairly open woodland and rhodedendrons. No briar etc. As she works her tail action means her tail touches either flank as she wags it while hunting.
Attachments
blackcob
🖖
[Edited]
I could maybe, maybe accept it as necessity on the basis of argument about preventing future injury in working dogs (I have seen how hard it can be to heal tails) if there was a better guarantee that docked pups were truly intended for working; however, at the moment there is nothing to prevent a litter being legally docked upon production of the right evidence but then the whole lot sold to pet homes anyway.
Some UK based agility handlers have fallen foul of this when competitions like WAO or EO are held in countries with a docking ban, I think the last one that caused issues was Finland. Otherwise you've got the weird loophole here where docked dogs cannot compete in the show ring where the public have paid to enter (inc. Crufts) but are permitted to compete in agility at the same show, which seems nonsensical. And there is annual debate at the schipperke ring about whether such and such foreign dog(s) really are natural bobtails. ?
I could maybe, maybe accept it as necessity on the basis of argument about preventing future injury in working dogs (I have seen how hard it can be to heal tails) if there was a better guarantee that docked pups were truly intended for working; however, at the moment there is nothing to prevent a litter being legally docked upon production of the right evidence but then the whole lot sold to pet homes anyway.
Some UK based agility handlers have fallen foul of this when competitions like WAO or EO are held in countries with a docking ban, I think the last one that caused issues was Finland. Otherwise you've got the weird loophole here where docked dogs cannot compete in the show ring where the public have paid to enter (inc. Crufts) but are permitted to compete in agility at the same show, which seems nonsensical. And there is annual debate at the schipperke ring about whether such and such foreign dog(s) really are natural bobtails. ?
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Mule
Well-Known Member
My mistake.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
Surely no one is doing it without LA in this day and age?
blackcob
🖖
Edited - with hindsight as a lay person I don't have enough information to make a broad statement.
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Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I really don't think that it matters what breed of dog gets its tail trapped in a car door, it is likely to need amputation. Unless the breeder knows that it's going to a careless owner, no dog is going to have it's tail docked at less than 5 days old to avoid that scenario. And I doubt that Springers are more prone to having careless owners than any other breed.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I quite agree. I get the argument for working dogs. But any vet docking without using a LA needs to be struck off.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Do you use an anaesthetic when docking your pups?
Redders
Well-Known Member
I’m against tail docking.
The rules around it can be found on the RCVS website. But basically, in England, it is legal to dock the tails of working dogs before the puppies eyes open without an anaesthetic, with scissors. It was thought years back that puppies didn’t have a fully developed nervous system, so didn’t feel pain, similar to how babies were thought of. But these days, we know better. In my opinion, we should DO better. I’m sure some vets who dock do use local anaesthetic, but the dose you can give to a puppy would be tiny, so maybe not enough to actually cause anaesthesia, and it adds to the cost of the procedure.
I will never dock a tail or remove dew claws without there being a proven issue, and I will always do it under a general anaesthetic, with a local anaesthetic also to balance the anaesthetic agents used.
It is legal for vets to do it as said before eyes are open, but it’s a personal choice and something I would never do. Maybe an unpopular stance, but it’s my choice
The rules around it can be found on the RCVS website. But basically, in England, it is legal to dock the tails of working dogs before the puppies eyes open without an anaesthetic, with scissors. It was thought years back that puppies didn’t have a fully developed nervous system, so didn’t feel pain, similar to how babies were thought of. But these days, we know better. In my opinion, we should DO better. I’m sure some vets who dock do use local anaesthetic, but the dose you can give to a puppy would be tiny, so maybe not enough to actually cause anaesthesia, and it adds to the cost of the procedure.
I will never dock a tail or remove dew claws without there being a proven issue, and I will always do it under a general anaesthetic, with a local anaesthetic also to balance the anaesthetic agents used.
It is legal for vets to do it as said before eyes are open, but it’s a personal choice and something I would never do. Maybe an unpopular stance, but it’s my choice
AmyMay
Situation normal
Thankyou Redders xx
meleeka
Well-Known Member
My point was that the dog had already had numerous injuries to her tail, because of wagging it. It never really healed from one time to the next. It would have probably been better if she’d have had it docked when it became clear that she didn’t have the sense to avoid banging walls etc with it. I’m anti docking, unless for medical reasons, and in this case I think it would have been justified for medical reasons (even before the car door episode).
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Have we got any breeding experts who could tell us how many generations it would take to breed good working dogs with shorter, tougher tails if it
suddenly became impossible to cut puppies' tails off with a pair of scissors?
.
suddenly became impossible to cut puppies' tails off with a pair of scissors?
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DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
I don't breed, but I would guess that the main problem would be finding existing dogs in the gene pool that will strengthen those characteristics while still passing on other desirable characteristics that make them good working dogs.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
There aren’t any spaniels with short fat tails.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
In general breeding for just one specific thing (ie shorter tail) can be disastrous for a breed as some people will focus on the one thing and ignore other important points. Anyone breeding should look at the overall dog not just one or two particular virtues.
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
And the amount of 'wastage'/extra dogs would be shocking, in the intervening generations.