Mule
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, the more innovations, the better.
Dressage The big debate- top hats vs helmets for fei dressage
- Thread starter shortstuff99
- Start date
TPO
Well-Known Member
I don't understand what point you are making.
You've said "meh" to wearing hats and that they might protect against fractures but not concussion.
If that's your argument surely it's better to "only" increase protection/reduce risk of fractures than nothing at all?
Meanwhile have the gurus working behind the scenes on new technology that does offer greater protection against the effects of concussion.
Over half (possibly more like 75%) of the horse riding planet dont wear helmets for one reason or another and are doing more dangerous things over more dangerous territory on "less schooled" horses and they are surviving BUT if you're offered a way to keep yourself safer why wouldn't you?
I can see both sides. I've ridden without a hat and probably would again if the same opportunities presented themselves. I had my worse fall hatless and had a bad concussion with 2 or 3 days of memory loss then got straight back to it. Theres no accounting for stupidity!
However personal choice aside if you want to play in the FEI's sandpit then you follow their rules. Simple I would have thought?
If you dont like their rules don't play in their sandpit. Their intentions are from a safety POV, not like they are saying everyone has to do the chicken dance before mounting and tutus are the only acceptable riding wear!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
OMG this!! Off topic slightly as it's not a safety issue, but I hate formal traditional riding wear. All others sports have technical performance wear while we truss ourselves up in jackets and stocks/ties, and wear WHITE. When eventing in March in driving rain, waterproofs were not allowed and when eventing in sweltering sun in August, jackets were still compulsory. I'd love to see a move away from poncy clothes to practical, weather proof, performance wear across all equestrian disciplines. But I know others love the dressing up part of it so I am not sure if that would ever happen. I'd get rid of plaiting too. I can see the point for showing but not in competition. It's a PITA, probably hurts when being done and could restrict the horses neck in jumping phases. So why bother with it at all.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Protecting the skull definitely
Protecting the skull definitely isn't meh, so helmet wearing is important, particularly if you consider penetrating injuries, where a shattered skull may penetrate the brain. My point was that as useful as helmets are, they aren't as protective as is commonly thought. It is important to focus on risk management in terms of what we do than rely on helmets to keep us safe.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Helmets aren't designed to prevent concussion, so using that as an argument against making them compulsory is pretty moot.
Being quite heavily involved in sport, equestrian and non, I'm a fan of black and white rules and I dislike choice especially when it comes to safety issues, so I think top hats should be consigned to history. A big fit dressage horse is no easy ride, and it makes no sense to have compulsory safety equipment in sj and xc and a choice for dressage.
Being quite heavily involved in sport, equestrian and non, I'm a fan of black and white rules and I dislike choice especially when it comes to safety issues, so I think top hats should be consigned to history. A big fit dressage horse is no easy ride, and it makes no sense to have compulsory safety equipment in sj and xc and a choice for dressage.
Ownedby4horses
...
We were at Arlington PBR Champtionship in February and yes, we definitely notoced more riders wearing helmets than previous years we've been. ?
Branna
Well-Known Member
I'm disappointed that so many top riders have signed this petition, especially those from the US & UK who are generally more progressive with the issue.
Personally, on a style/tradition note I think top hats look old fashioned and contrast with technical fabrics and more modern riding wear.
Regardless of arguments on how many people have fallen during a GP test/how far helmets protect brain injury etc... at the end of the day Dressage is an Olympic sport, and if we want to keep it there we just can't afford to be so backward thinking when it comes to safety (or perceptions of safety).
Frankly I lost a lot of respect for Isabel Werth when I read somewhere that the German team told Sonke Rothenberger he had to wear a top hat in the team test when he usually rides in a helmet. Anyone for free choice should let their team mates make their own!!
Personally, on a style/tradition note I think top hats look old fashioned and contrast with technical fabrics and more modern riding wear.
Regardless of arguments on how many people have fallen during a GP test/how far helmets protect brain injury etc... at the end of the day Dressage is an Olympic sport, and if we want to keep it there we just can't afford to be so backward thinking when it comes to safety (or perceptions of safety).
Frankly I lost a lot of respect for Isabel Werth when I read somewhere that the German team told Sonke Rothenberger he had to wear a top hat in the team test when he usually rides in a helmet. Anyone for free choice should let their team mates make their own!!
Mule
Well-Known Member
Absolutely
Absolutely agree re the free choice. If someone wants it themselves it makes no sense not to support it for others. Although I can imagine it would be very difficult for a young member of the team to stand up to a legend like Isabel Werth.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I rarely ride with a helmet and think it should absolutely be a personal choice.
Mule
Well-Known Member
I do ride with one but agree it should be a personal choice for adults.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Is there any other international olympic sport that says it's personal choice what protective equipment competitors wear?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Certainly, not everyone wears all of the personal protective equipment there is available. Some is mandatory, some is choice.
Ownedby4horses
...
millikins
Well-Known Member
I would want to see an appropriate risk assessment done before making such a rule change, and surely in an instance like this the statistics are readily available. I have no idea of the actual numbers but if say 2 riders out of 250,000 competitive rides in the last 10 years have sustained a significant H.I. I would consider it a minimal risk and should be up to the individual rider to decide. If it was 50 injuries, then that would be more significant.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Could you tell me which?
TPO
Well-Known Member
I understand your point but even if wearing a hat "only" saved 1 in 10 million is it not worth it for that one?
I still stand by it FEIs game and FEIs rules so if you dont like them dont play.
While I understand some, not all, of the nuances imagine what this will look like to non-riders? Posh, elitist eejits campaigning against something that had the potential to save their life because they want to pounce around on ponies wearing a top hat ?
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
I suppose the obvious one is air jackets ??
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Air jackets in other sports?
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
In non equestrian sports?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Various gloves, cups (for men, in er, the personal area...), knee/elbow pads, etc., etc.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
for which sports?
I was interested in examples of sports rather than generalisations of equipment and thought it was easier to ask if people knew of them from their other experiences than me go down a wormhole about it.
I was interested in examples of sports rather than generalisations of equipment and thought it was easier to ask if people knew of them from their other experiences than me go down a wormhole about it.
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
Ah, OK, sorry - not my personal experience but that of people whom I know: fencing, and most of the downhill slide-y winter sports.
scats
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t really bother me to be honest, but I would probably say that as a sport now with many young followers (which it certainly wasn’t when I was a kid), I think that perhaps the riding hat rule should be enforced. If it becomes the norm to see top level dressage riders wearing helmets, hopefully that will filter down to the more impressionable riders. Heads are quite important, after all.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
So I've done some fencing but always in ppe, what is optional for downhills slidey sports?
millikins
Well-Known Member
No because FEI horse riders are adults who make an assessment of risk every time they have anything to do with a horse. They are not campaigning against it, they are campaigning against the compulsion of adults to comply with health and safety regulations which are not based on any evidence.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Everyone competing in the downhill slidey winter sports has to wear a helmet. Knee and elbow pads are used in some, like slalom and giant slalom, where a skiier might whack a gate with their arm or leg at high speed. Olympic-level GS skiiers can reach speeds up to 80mph! In most sports, it's not that much of a kerfuffle and people just wear them, whether they are competing at high levels or not competitive at all. I personally own a climbing helmet, a ski helmet, a kayaking helmet, a riding helmet, and a cycling helmet. If you ask me why any of those don't double up, the answer is, I'm not sure, other than obvious reasons, like the ski helmet is furry inside and too warm for anything else. I suppose they are rated and shaped for different kinds of impact.
Anyway, I agree with Amber.
I really hated the get-up when I was competing. Wearing a black (or dark blue) long-sleeved jacket and a stock tie in Colorado summers was fecking miserable. And being around horses in *white* trousers always seemed stupid. When I visited my parents a couple years ago, I *almost* took my white trousers back to the UK in case I wanted to show again, but they were so stained and not white that there was no point. Ridiculous. I would love it if equestrian competitions allowed people to wear practical, technical clothing.
Braiding/plaiting also sucks. My first horse I hogged, and then when I got Gypsum, she had her mane trimmed and short, and I braided her for our first year on the dressage circuit it. Hated it. I let her mane grow out so I could do it up as a lattice, which was faster and easier.
I guess I was not a very good DQ.
Anyway, I agree with Amber.
I really hated the get-up when I was competing. Wearing a black (or dark blue) long-sleeved jacket and a stock tie in Colorado summers was fecking miserable. And being around horses in *white* trousers always seemed stupid. When I visited my parents a couple years ago, I *almost* took my white trousers back to the UK in case I wanted to show again, but they were so stained and not white that there was no point. Ridiculous. I would love it if equestrian competitions allowed people to wear practical, technical clothing.
Braiding/plaiting also sucks. My first horse I hogged, and then when I got Gypsum, she had her mane trimmed and short, and I braided her for our first year on the dressage circuit it. Hated it. I let her mane grow out so I could do it up as a lattice, which was faster and easier.
I guess I was not a very good DQ.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'm now pondering what the pro data says on cycling helmets, given that the 'everyone' data would suggest they are a terrible idea (no don't ask me to find it but it does get point at on cycley forums).
Cowpony
Well-Known Member
You'd think skiers would wear helmets wouldn't you, but from my observations I would say it's about 50:50. Snowboarders tend to wear them because they are more likely to do the crazy stuff, but I've heard of people dying from a very innocuous slip at slow speeds. It tends to be compulsory for children in most resorts, but adults make their own choice. I ski with a friend who has never worn a helmet, despite the rest of us in the group wearing them. She's a nurse so probably knows more about the risks than most of us non-medical people.
JulesRules
Well-Known Member
I'm 100% in the @Curly_Feather and @Ambers Echo camp on this one. As an ex-roller derby player I have seen how quickly a sport can change it's culture to be taken more seriously. When I first started playing RD about 10 years ago it was all fishnets and hot pants and face paints akin to wrestling. Now it's technical tops, sports leggings etc and people are increasingly skating under their own names rather than skate names. I think equestrian sports are going in the same direction, albeit much more slowly. One of the reasons I like Quest is because jackets, stocks etc are not required (although even I did succumb for Regionals)
That's not how risk assessments work I'm afraid. If you can put a control measure in place to prevent even 1 injury you should do so as long as it's reasonably practicable (i.e. is the response proportionate to the risk?). In the case of requiring the wearing of a helmet I think it would be hard to argue that sooner of later the wearing of helmets would save lives, and that the implementation of the rule was a proportionate response.
On a personal level, I don't get why anyone would feel the need to get on a horse without a helmet anyway.
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
@mule, I'm sorry but this is absolutely incorrect.
We have many doctors/neurologists/specialists in and around here (USA) who are THRILLED that MIPS finally got to equestrian helmets.
It's been proven to have reduced brain injuries in cycling (the first sport helmets that were able to get it) motor sports, snow sports, rock climbing and in construction uses as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743977/
You can find the various independent study results done by the Virginia Tech Helmet Lab here:
https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/index.html
That lab is about to start an unprecedented study on riding helmets and will be working to eliminate our ASTM pass/fail testing with a new 5* certification system so that we can know as consumers how well a helmet does in safety testing before we buy it. (Currently all we know is that helmets we can buy in the US have passed ASTM's testing methods. We do not know if they were well above the limits or right on the line)
You can read more about this study at www.ehsi.net
There are many US studies and the results have shown that MIPS technology (using a Slip plane) and Wavecel (Currently only in football, bicycle and some other sports helmets, but not equestrian) are both technologies that will help protect your brain in an added way.
The future I expect will give us further versions of ways to ensure that our brains themselves are protected as well as the skull itself.
Full disclosure I had a MIPS helmet on during my freak accident last year and I fully attribute the MIPS tech for helping to save my brain that had 11 concussions already before that day. (Not all horse related)
I run and organize a MIPS information Facebook Group (www.facebook.com/groups/Mipshelmets) And there's a lot of information out there about how MIPS is changing things and how riding helmets with Mips are expected to come into more prevalence.
There's technically 6 companies that have them here in the USA with our (Archaic, and hopefully outgoing) ASTM approval; Champion, Charles Owen, TraumaVoid(Back on Track), OneK, Tipperary and Armis Polo helmets.
As far as the dressage riders petition, I think as someone else said that it's a bit short sighted. A TBI or other serious head injury doesn't just affect the person it happens to. It affects many others in their daily sphere. I can appreciate that grown adults want to have their own choices, but safety shouldn't be something that we are arguing this passionately about, imo. There's risks to organizers as well with liability concerns and if accidents happen on their insurance policies for the events.
Wear the safest helmet you can when you're riding at a competition and show the people who look up to you that you at least sortof pretend to care.
If you wear nothing at home, that's on you and your accidents will be all your own. But don't fight to wear a beaver's butt on your head in front of crowds that should be respecting the inherent danger of our sports.
Em