The coronation carriage, isn't this a bit excessive?

[ponynutz]

Interesting piece about accidents in rotten row in the 1800s.

Rotten Row Accidents in Hyde Park in the 1800s - geriwalton.com

By the 1800s Rotten Row was a well-established spot and because of its popularity there were plenty of horse related accidents reported. Among them were

www.geriwalton.com

There seems to be a lot of broken reins.

'The paper also reported that “this is another instance of the dangerous consequences likely to result from the introduction of blood-horses in harness".'

This is an interesting quote and relevant to above

 

[rabatsa]

With reins you also have to remember that they are the only physical contact that a driver has with the horse, unlike a rider who can use legs and weight aids.

Many years ago I had a beastie that I drove 6 days a week and did 50-60 miles each week. After being so long in each others company we could almost read each others minds. No way was he shut down but he was very obedient and willing to try whatever I asked of him. In return I never knowingly put him in danger or asked beyond his capabilities.

Now I am older and wiser? I doubt that I would manage to build up such a bond again as I did all the driving out on my own. Now I would aim to have someone out with me as legs on the ground in emergencies.

 

[honetpot]

I think it is difficult to compare accidents with horses in the past, because horses were used by anyone with no training and no rules to follow, and there were just so many of them.

A nags man trained the horse and someone else who perhaps didn't really ride much took it out just to look good in the Park. I think the 'modern' equivalent are the hunters that I used to look after, they were looked after like kings Monday to Friday and on Saturday, an overweight man took them hunting who had lots of money but rode badly and cared less once it was back in the stable. The fact they were never lame all season was down to the knowledge of the YM, who made sure they were fit, exercised well, and cared for.

 

[Clodagh]

Imo, you bred from your mare if she was useful, so generally she was sound and would hunt or work.
You bred her to a stallion that was walked by hand around the lanes. He couldn’t be a psychopath.
Nowadays we breed because she’s pretty and I love her and we send her to a well marketed stallion that at 3 can do piaffe.
There was gradual change through things like hunter mares to HIS stallions but nowadays no one seems to want a safe, sound non glam option. Or looking at prices people do want them again now but they are like hens teeth.
I’m so glad I grew up doing stupid things and that my children were able to do them too.

 

[Cortez]

I think it is difficult to compare accidents with horses in the past, because horses were used by anyone with no training and no rules to follow, and there were just so many of them.

A nags man trained the horse and someone else who perhaps didn't really ride much took it out just to look good in the Park. I think the 'modern' equivalent are the hunters that I used to look after, they were looked after like kings Monday to Friday and on Saturday, an overweight man took them hunting who had lots of money but rode badly and cared less once it was back in the stable. The fact they were never lame all season was down to the knowledge of the YM, who made sure they were fit, exercised well, and cared for.

Hmmm, no, don't agree with this. Before the motor car everybody had a basic knowledge of horses, it was just a part of life. Not everybody rode or drove well, just as not everyone is a good driver today, but there was an innate awareness of how to behave around horses and almost everybody did know how to ride or drive and benefitted from the accumulated knowledge passed down through hundreds of generations, it was almost instinctual. That knowledge has been mostly lost and modern horsemanship is now all about learning from scratch, reinventing "horsemanship" (natural or otherwise). In some places of course there was no break and horses are still ridden and trained as they always were, in an uninterrupted tradition. I'm thinking mostly of Spain and Portugal, but there are other countries where horses are still used (and abused) as they always were.

 

[AmyMay]

but there was an innate awareness of how to behave around horses and almost everybody did know how to ride or drive and benefitted from the accumulated knowledge passed down through hundreds of generations,

I’m not sure that’s true at all.

 

[Cortez]

I’m not sure that’s true at all.

Why? I do a lot of historical research and the references to horses and riding are legion; part of daily life for everyone, even poor people. Even ploughmen rode home.....

 

[AmyMay]

Why? I do a lot of historical research and the references to horses and riding are legion; part of daily life for everyone, even poor people. Even ploughmen rode home.....

But not everyone lived in rural villages or had access to or involvement with horses.

 

[Cortez]

But not everyone lived in rural villages or had access to or involvement with horses.

There were horses in towns too (also, which historical period are you referencing? I tend to be a Medievalist, but even my dad grew up with a cart horse in the family, and he lived in Islington - he's in his '90's BTW), all transport involved horses up until the second quarter of the 20th century, there would have been horses everywhere.

 

[tristar]

There were horses in towns too (also, which historical period are you referencing? I tend to be a Medievalist, but even my dad grew up with a cart horse in the family, and he lived in Islington - he's in his '90's BTW), all transport involved horses up until the second quarter of the 20th century, there would have been horses everywhere.

that true, when my family got a car, we still kept the pony and trap, and our milk was delivered by pony and trap

many people kept horses in the towns also

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Why? I do a lot of historical research and the references to horses and riding are legion; part of daily life for everyone, even poor people. Even ploughmen rode home.....

There were plenty of people who neither rode nor drove, either because they had no need to do so, or couldn't afford to do so.

 

[Cortez]

There were plenty of people who neither rode nor drove, either because they had no need to do so, or couldn't afford to do so.

Sources?

Even in the late 19/early 20th c trams were pulled by horses, coal was delivered by wagon, ALL land transportation involved horses in some facility, so even if you didn't ride you were aware of horses and saw them all around you, they were a part of daily life.

 

[equinerebel]

Interesting piece about accidents in rotten row in the 1800s.

Rotten Row Accidents in Hyde Park in the 1800s - geriwalton.com

By the 1800s Rotten Row was a well-established spot and because of its popularity there were plenty of horse related accidents reported. Among them were

www.geriwalton.com

There seems to be a lot of broken reins.

This was really really interesting to read! And then I read several more posts on the website. Wanted to thank you!

 

[honetpot]

Hmmm, no, don't agree with this. Before the motor car everybody had a basic knowledge of horses, it was just a part of life. Not everybody rode or drove well, just as not everyone is a good driver today, but there was an innate awareness of how to behave around horses and almost everybody did know how to ride or drive and benefitted from the accumulated knowledge passed down through hundreds of generations, it was almost instinctual. That knowledge has been mostly lost and modern horsemanship is now all about learning from scratch, reinventing "horsemanship" (natural or otherwise). In some places of course there was no break and horses are still ridden and trained as they always were, in an uninterrupted tradition. I'm thinking mostly of Spain and Portugal, but there are other countries where horses are still used (and abused) as they always were.

I do not think they did, they may have done if they worked with horses and managed themselves, but a lot were just a form of transport managed by servants, that is why a lot of our horse traditions are so labour intensive.
Where I used to ride as child was a farm that had been worked by horses, our tack some of which may have been pre war. The horses had stalls with cobbles and swinging bales for the big horses, and the older farm workers who were still there were never interested in the ones the dealer bought in. An old dealer once told me that as soon as the farm bought a tractor, the horses would be unhitched at the end of the day, and then off on the meat lorry or train. A horse was old at nine, you rarely saw anything over twelve in the dealers yard, they were working animals and if they didn't work they went on the lorry.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Sources?

Even in the late 19/early 20th c trams were pulled by horses, coal was delivered by wagon, ALL land transportation involved horses in some facility, so even if you didn't ride you were aware of horses and saw them all around you, they were a part of daily life.

You have just illustrated my point! People were aware of horses, in the way that people who currently don't drive are aware of cars - they (mostly) make sure that they don't get run over by them. People saw horses and thought of them as part of the scenery but didn't handle them.
Our house was built in 1850, as a weavers' cottage. It was a cottage industry, 2 of the cottages had enough land for a pony/donkey and some sheep, the others were smaller. One man from each of the bigger houses would take a pack animal into a relatively nearby town to the Cloth Hall/market to sell woollen cloth and bring home foodstuffs that wasn't grown at home. The other people who lived in the cottages would stay at home and get on with the work that had to be done here. They neither rode nor drove. They certainly would have more idea about animals in general than many people do nowadays but could hardly be called 'horsemen/women'

 

[criso]

Not sure that using horse transportation and seeing them around would mean you would know much about them anymore than living in modern London qualifies me to drive a double decker bus though i have directed rail replacement drivers when they get lost.

 

[Cortez]

I'm not claiming that everyone was a magnificent horseman in the past, I'm saying that the majority of people were more aware of horses in general than the modern population, that basic knowledge about horses was endemic and natural. There were millions of people involved with the daily care of horses. I can't lay my hand on the numbers, but I recall an enormous figure for the daily tonnage of horse manure that was removed from London streets in the 1860's. Horses were everywhere.

I would not hand my horse to be held by any random passer-by today; there would not be a Medieval person that wouldn't not have known how to handle a horse, how to tack one up, for instance.

 

[Cortez]

People saw horses and thought of them as part of the scenery but didn't handle them.

Do you have a source for this assertion? I can show you literally reams of documentation dealing with the disposition of horses and their handling going back 800 years; it's one of the primary concerns of every journey, military campaign, household accounts and wills, business transactions, etc.

Mrs Beeton's cookbook even has an extensive section on managing the household stables - it's very good, BTW, well worth reading.

 

[AmyMay]

Do you have a source for this assertion? I can show you literally reams of documentation dealing with the disposition of horses and their handling going back 800 years; it's one of the primary concerns of every journey, military campaign, household accounts and wills, business transactions, etc.

Mrs Beeton's cookbook even has an extensive section on managing the household stables - it's very good, BTW, well worth reading.

Ok you win

 

[Cortez]

Ok you win

Not about winning, I'm just curious why people would think that people weren't familiar with horse handling in the past? The evidence shows the opposite.

 

[AmyMay]

Not about winning, I'm just curious why people would think that people weren't familiar with horse handling in the past?

No one has said they weren’t. Just not every Tom, Dick and Harry….

 

[blitznbobs]

I'm not claiming that everyone was a magnificent horseman in the past, I'm saying that the majority of people were more aware of horses in general than the modern population, that basic knowledge about horses was endemic and natural. There were millions of people involved with the daily care of horses. I can't lay my hand on the numbers, but I recall an enormous figure for the daily tonnage of horse manure that was removed from London streets in the 1860's. Horses were everywhere.

I would not hand my horse to be held by any random passer-by today; there would not be a Medieval person that wouldn't not have known how to handle a horse, how to tack one up, for instance.

2.5 million pounds of poo per DAY (that’s roughly about 1 million kilos which is 1000 tonnes per day.)

 

[Cortez]

No one has said they weren’t. Just not every Tom, Dick and Harry….

Umm, again.....evidence shows that Tom, Dick and Harry were probably pretty handy with horses, perhaps not jousting champions, but capable of doing the basics.

 

[Cortez]

2.5 million pounds of poo per DAY (that’s roughly about 1 million kilos which is 1000 tonnes per day.)

Oooh, thanks; I knew it was a monumental amount!

 

[conniegirl]

No one has said they weren’t. Just not every Tom, Dick and Harry….

Going to agree with Cortez. Everyone would have had a basic knowledge of horses. There is masses and masses of evidence to that effect.

 

[criso]

2.5 million pounds of poo per DAY (that’s roughly about 1 million kilos which is 1000 tonnes per day.)

It was a crisis

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

By the late 1800s, large cities all around the world were drowning in horse manure. The London Times predicted in 1894 that in 50 years time, every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure.

www.historic-uk.com

 

[ester]

Friend has historical records for how much hay the farmhouse they live in sent to london each year. I think I hadn't really cottoned on to how much they would actually need shipping in/how far they would ship it, don't know why, it seems obvious now! I find stuff like that really cool.

 

[honetpot]

I'm not claiming that everyone was a magnificent horseman in the past, I'm saying that the majority of people were more aware of horses in general than the modern population, that basic knowledge about horses was endemic and natural. There were millions of people involved with the daily care of horses. I can't lay my hand on the numbers, but I recall an enormous figure for the daily tonnage of horse manure that was removed from London streets in the 1860's. Horses were everywhere.

I would not hand my horse to be held by any random passer-by today; there would not be a Medieval person that wouldn't not have known how to handle a horse, how to tack one up, for instance.

I think horses have always been in the past for the rich, and the rich have staff. To own a working horse you needed money and land, and a lot of plough work was done by oxon. Oxen were also cheaper to keep.
TABLE ~2 Yearly Oats Consumption by Horses and Oxen Region
Cart-horses Plough-horses Oxen
(No of manors) (qrs/animal) (qrs/animal) (qrs/animal)
East Anglia (12) 7.04 3.03 0.87
Home Counties (18) 8.28 2.59 0.46
Kent & Sussex (7) 4.92 3.37 0.06
East Midlands & Lincs (8) 6.11 1.29 0.25
West Midlands & Oxon (10) 6.64 1.29 0.22
Hampshire & Wihs (5) 3.63 0.83 0.32
Devon (6) 1.05 0.70 0.01
The North (11) 1.42 1.13 0.16
National average 13 6.65 2.02 0.34

England's wealth in the middle ages was built on sheep, because they are cheap to keep, live on rough grazing, and could feed and cloth you, a horse for most people would be a luxury and it would eat more than it could produce, unless they had hard land to plough.
When you read Austin or Dickens, horses are driven or ridden by the professional classes and above, unless you got the mail coach or the carters cart.

 

[ester]

Something I watched recently stated that the reason oxen were used for so long and not horses was because the horse collar hadn't been invented/perfected/hadn't worked out how to get them to pull without suffocating (it stood out to me as I didnt think it should have been that complicated!) and that they were less strong but faster. It was a program that was done from denny abbey.

 

[teapot]

The number of horses in London pre 1900 changed the way road surfaces and road structures were looked at as well, given the many many slipping injuries. There's article in the Pall Mall gazette about it from the 1880s.