The dealer that cannot be named

As a society we are becoming very much a blaming society and not taking responsibility for ourselves. It's all very well to say she had a great reputation etc etc but we all know one of the golden rules of buying is go and view. Look back on any post on here about issues with a newly purchased horse and one of the first questions is "did you view before you bought", "did you vet". There are red flags all over it from the off it's wild that it got so out of control.

Did those who sent there horses on sales livery know it could be sent out on 2 weeks trials to multiple homes, again who sends there animal to this kind of environment!
 
jhoward said:
Interesting for anyone that remembers Ricky sawyer...he done something similar to her.
He was Essex her Cambridge those two area are not a million miles apart...
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Hes now moved on to causing physical harm to people giving them dodgy botox injections etc. I ws gob smacked when he popped up on TV being investigated for it. Scammers always going to scam it would seem!
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Fundamentally you shouldn't buy sight unseen unless you are competent enough to cope with whatever comes off the lorry. And take however the horse is described by the seller with a healthy shovelful of salt and be prepared to deal with it not being the perfect unicorn as described.

I do feel sorry for the dealers victims but fundamentally you have to wonder about a seller with so many allegedly absolutely foot perfect saint animals and even the fact that EVERY review is absolutely glowing should ring alarm bells, it doesn't happen in reality
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I did this as a first time owner. I did feel I was taking a risk as sending the horse back to Denmark would have been a very costly affair! Thank goodness she is a delightful horse. Smaller than described, but that’s fairly common in the Icelandic horse world apparently. But the breeder I bought her from, although I wouldn’t say is disreputable, went on to block me on Facebook after she saw that I clipped her (the horse 😆). Only a bib clip. Got a rude message then a block. My horse is healthy and doing very well, but some horse sellers are very strange. Wouldn’t buy from her again obviously.
 
wills_91 said:
As a society we are becoming very much a blaming society and not taking responsibility for ourselves. It's all very well to say she had a great reputation etc etc but we all know one of the golden rules of buying is go and view. Look back on any post on here about issues with a newly purchased horse and one of the first questions is "did you view before you bought", "did you vet". There are red flags all over it from the off it's wild that it got so out of control.

Did those who sent there horses on sales livery know it could be sent out on 2 weeks trials to multiple homes, again who sends there animal to this kind of environment!
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We have to be able to trust people. I've just renovated a house and therefore paid out a lot of deposits, anyone of these trade people *could have* bogged off with my money.

I see no problem buying a horse unseen from a reputable dealer for an experienced rider. Scammers know exactly how to play people. I couldn't possibly judge someone that has been conned out of their money by this woman.
 
I can see how people got suckered in
I nearly did but baulked at the potential transport costs and didn't like the idea of moving a horse i'd not even seen in the flesh and then I got a message via this forum warning me to stay away.

EVERY single review I could find was positive and glowing, not a single bad review anywhere. People praising the 2 week trial option and no quibble returns etc etc.

Unfortunately there are often posts saying that if you buy from a dealer you have more rights and the horse can be returned etc. basically treated like an Amazon package. So it encourages people to buy unseen.

It was a Ponzi scheme but no one knew until now.
 
wills_91 said:
As a society we are becoming very much a blaming society and not taking responsibility for ourselves. It's all very well to say she had a great reputation etc etc but we all know one of the golden rules of buying is go and view. Look back on any post on here about issues with a newly purchased horse and one of the first questions is "did you view before you bought", "did you vet". There are red flags all over it from the off it's wild that it got so out of control.

Did those who sent there horses on sales livery know it could be sent out on 2 weeks trials to multiple homes, again who sends there animal to this kind of environment!
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I disagree.

She is a fraudster and is entirely responsible for her actions and the trail of destruction she leaves in her wake.

Yes, in an ideal world we should all view, vet, then buy, however, even with these things, it may not have prevented a lot of the issues buyers experienced here as not all horses failed vettings, and not all issues would have been discovered at a viewing. It also would not have prevented vast amounts of money not being returned to buyers.

The attractive part of her sales process was being able to buy but also have the no quibble trial period. This in itself is ridiculous as she is a business and consumer rights trumped her terms anyway, but, as I've said before, she talked a very good talk and is an established conwoman.

Buyers thought they were dealing with someone with a good reputation, they had a glossy trial period, horses were open to vettings, no quibble returns etc. It was all great. Until it wasnt.

Let's remember, H&H moderators, admins of groups that have seen it all, sales platforms, and others, have all been taken in by this unscrupulous woman.

Is that because they are stupid? No. Is it because they are inexperienced? No.
It is because they have been manipulated by a calculated fraudster.

I assume from your logic, with a viewing and vetting beforehand, every sale ever has been trouble free and new horse and new human have lived together happily ever after?
 
Bellaboo18 said:
We have to be able to trust people. I've just renovated a house and therefore paid out a lot of deposits, anyone of these trade people *could have* bogged off with my money.

I see no problem buying a horse unseen from a reputable dealer for an experienced rider. Scammers know exactly how to play people. I couldn't possibly judge someone that has been conned out of their money by this woman.
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I am also mid renovation and paid a lot of deposits but I've never paid for something in full up front and I'm not sure we can/should compare a house to an animal?

I also don't see any issue with an experienced rider buying unseen from a reputable dealer but this also isn't the case for the majority of these either.
 
nutjob said:
Certainly do! He's been on the telly. Don't remember him running any kind of horse related Ponzi scheme though.

www.bbc.co.uk

Brazilian butt-lift injector banned from carrying out cosmetic procedures

A BBC investigation found Ricky Sawyer was carrying out dangerous BBLs and handing over medication illegally.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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There was a old thread on FB re a sold horse and it being advertised for sale when he didn't have it
Bit like this dealer ...most things have been removed from online places
 
wills_91 said:
I am also mid renovation and paid a lot of deposits but I've never paid for something in full up front and I'm not sure we can/should compare a house to an animal?

I also don't see any issue with an experienced rider buying unseen from a reputable dealer but this also isn't the case for the majority of these either.
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I think you're missing the point.

This dealer was reputable as far as people could see. Everything about her was censored, everywhere. On every platform, this forum included!

How do you know the majority of buyers were not experienced? The two people I know personally were not inexperienced. A lot of the people posting on the Facebook group do not appear to be inexperienced either.
 
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Apizz2019 said:
I disagree.

She is a fraudster and is entirely responsible for her actions and the trail of destruction she leaves in her wake.

Yes, in an ideal world we should all view, vet, then buy, however, even with these things, it may not have prevented a lot of the issues buyers experienced here as not all horses failed vettings, and not all issues would have been discovered at a viewing. It also would not have prevented vast amounts of money not being returned to buyers.

The attractive part of her sales process was being able to buy but also have the no quibble trial period. This in itself is ridiculous as she is a business and consumer rights trumped her terms anyway, but, as I've said before, she talked a very good talk and is an established conwoman.

Buyers thought they were dealing with someone with a good reputation, they had a glossy trial period, horses were open to vettings, no quibble returns etc. It was all great. Until it wasnt.

Let's remember, H&H moderators, admins of groups that have seen it all, sales platforms, and others, have all been taken in by this unscrupulous woman.

Is that because they are stupid? No. Is it because they are inexperienced? No.
It is because they have been manipulated by a calculated fraudster.

I assume from your logic, with a viewing and vetting beforehand, every sale ever has been trouble free and new horse and new human have lived together happily ever after?
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No that's not my logic I'm just saying it's quite often the first question asked.

You can't honestly tell me that if you lived close enough (or were willing to travel to view) and the dealer made that awkward and then you were told if you view you can't have the trial that alarm bells wouldn't start ringing for the majority of folk?!

As you've said yourself her "attractive sales package" was trumped by consumer rights so it's not really attractive is it.
 
racmun said:
I can see how people got suckered in
I nearly did but baulked at the potential transport costs and didn't like the idea of moving a horse i'd not even seen in the flesh and then I got a message via this forum warning me to stay away.

EVERY single review I could find was positive and glowing, not a single bad review anywhere. People praising the 2 week trial option and no quibble returns etc etc.

Unfortunately there are often posts saying that if you buy from a dealer you have more rights and the horse can be returned etc. basically treated like an Amazon package. So it encourages people to buy unseen.

It was a Ponzi scheme but no one knew until now.
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You know I think this is what makes me so cross about it - that the no quibble returns process like it was an item of clothing that didn't fit or didn't look the same, an animal being sent backwards and forwards at the convenience of the purchaser.

I wouldn't buy unseen personally, I fully accept that many choose to be with great outcomes but it's not for me. I wouldn't sell to anyone not willing to view either, maybe that's why I'm finding it hard to not think that the purchasers need to take some responsibility.
 
wills_91 said:
I am also mid renovation and paid a lot of deposits but I've never paid for something in full up front and I'm not sure we can/should compare a house to an animal?

I also don't see any issue with an experienced rider buying unseen from a reputable dealer but this also isn't the case for the majority of these either.
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But you've basically said the people that have lost their money need to take responsibility for being in this situation. You want them to take the blame. That's ridiculous.

I'm not comparing horses and houses really, I'm comparing two situations where a large amount of money has been paid with trust after the client has done research and read multiple reviews. I've paid money before any materials have arrived.

For me, the blame should be on the dealer fullstop.
 
wills_91 said:
No that's not my logic I'm just saying it's quite often the first question asked.

You can't honestly tell me that if you lived close enough (or were willing to travel to view) and the dealer made that awkward and then you were told if you view you can't have the trial that alarm bells wouldn't start ringing for the majority of folk?!

As you've said yourself her "attractive sales package" was trumped by consumer rights so it's not really attractive is it.
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For me it was a hard no and and as I've already said, I advised a friend not to move forward with his dealer, however, I wasnt buying and had a clear head.

I'd not travelled the length and breadth of the country, or spent hours scanning websites and social media posts to find my next horse, only to then stumble across a selection of horses that ticked all/most of my boxes, and transport could be arranged too. Research done, no problems with the dealer as she has a great reputation. I now have:

  1. A selection of horses to choose from.
  2. Reputable dealer.
  3. Trial period.
  4. No quibble return policy.

See how easy it was to fall for it? I do.

She is responsible. Not the buyers.
 
wills_91 said:
You know I think this is what makes me so cross about it - that the no quibble returns process like it was an item of clothing that didn't fit or didn't look the same, an animal being sent backwards and forwards at the convenience of the purchaser.

I wouldn't buy unseen personally, I fully accept that many choose to be with great outcomes but it's not for me. I wouldn't sell to anyone not willing to view either, maybe that's why I'm finding it hard to not think that the purchasers need to take some responsibility.
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Yeah, I appreciate that it isn't a popular opinion, but I also struggle with feeling unbounded sympathy for people buying a living, breathing, sentient animal because a 2 week trial and no quibble return made it an attractive sales package. The horses are the true victims in this woman's nonsense, and while I feel sympathy for people that were conned, I just can't imagine bringing a horse into my life with the idea in my head from the offset that I will just send it back after a couple of weeks if I'm not happy with my purchase.

I've bought unseen, and from sales etc. but in my mind they were always coming to me to stay, and if for whatever reason they had not been suitable then I absolutely would have given them a proper period of time in my care before moving them on again. Horses carrying the emotional turmoil and burden of a human's mistake just feels really barbaric to me.
 
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Bellaboo18 said:
But you've basically said the people that have lost their money need to take responsibility for being in this situation. You want them to take the blame. That's ridiculous.

I'm not comparing horses and houses really, I'm comparing two situations where a large amount of money has been paid with trust after the client has done research and read multiple reviews. I've paid money before any materials have arrived.

For me, the blame should be on the dealer fullstop.
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Apizz2019 said:
For me it was a hard no and and as I've already said, I advised a friend not to move forward with his dealer, however, I wasnt buying and had a clear head.

I'd not travelled the length and breadth of the country, or spent hours scanning websites and social media posts to find my next horse, only to then stumble across a selection of horses that ticked all/most of my boxes, and transport could be arranged too. Research done, no problems with the dealer as she has a great reputation. I now have:

  1. A selection of horses to choose from.
  2. Reputable dealer.
  3. Trial period.
  4. No quibble return policy.

See how easy it was to fall for it? I do.

She is responsible. Not the buyers.
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No I don't see how easy it is, because I don't believe that animals should be treated like something that can easily be returned & I personally couldn't imagine taking one on I'd never laid eyes on never mind parting with thousands and thousands of pounds in the process.

I don't think the buyers should take all the blame, I do think though that some responsibility lies with them. I appreciate it's not a popular opinion and I'm okay with that. I can't imagine ever purchasing an animal on the basis of "it's an easy return" but appreciate for others that's the attraction. I am sad for those who have lost money/been injured and absolutely the dealer needs to be held accountable but I am mostly sad for the horses who have been passed backwards and forwards it's no way to treat an animal.
 
wills_91 said:
No I don't see how easy it is, because I don't believe that animals should be treated like something that can easily be returned & I personally couldn't imagine taking one on I'd never laid eyes on never mind parting with thousands and thousands of pounds in the process.

I don't think the buyers should take all the blame, I do think though that some responsibility lies with them. I appreciate it's not a popular opinion and I'm okay with that. I can't imagine ever purchasing an animal on the basis of "it's an easy return" but appreciate for others that's the attraction. I am sad for those who have lost money/been injured and absolutely the dealer needs to be held accountable but I am mostly sad for the horses who have been passed backwards and forwards it's no way to treat an animal.
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wills_91 said:
No I don't see how easy it is, because I don't believe that animals should be treated like something that can easily be returned & I personally couldn't imagine taking one on I'd never laid eyes on never mind parting with thousands and thousands of pounds in the process.

I don't think the buyers should take all the blame, I do think though that some responsibility lies with them. I appreciate it's not a popular opinion and I'm okay with that. I can't imagine ever purchasing an animal on the basis of "it's an easy return" but appreciate for others that's the attraction. I am sad for those who have lost money/been injured and absolutely the dealer needs to be held accountable but I am mostly sad for the horses who have been passed backwards and forwards it's no way to treat an animal.
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I think you are making a big assumption here, buyers weren't thinking "it's an easy return", they thought they were going to get a horse that met what they'd been searching for, and saw the return as a safety net, a possibility they didn't really expect to need. The dealer had great feedback, including endorsement from oe of the groups supposedly dedicated to outing dodgy dealers. Many buyers had the horses vetted before taking them. It's only recently become clear that these poor horses were on a merry go round of repeated "trials" A good number of buyers have kept really problematic horses and are doing what it takes to put them in a better place. Many of her human victims are full of guilt and self blame for getting involved, because of the impact on the horses. Shaming people who've been scammed is only helping the scammers, who thrive on victims feeling ashamed, foolish and afraid to share what happened. It's about as helpful as suggesting someone who's been burgled should really consider themselves partly responsible for not upgrading their burglar alarm.
 
Johnny's Star said:
I think you are making a big assumption here, buyers weren't thinking "it's an easy return", they thought they were going to get a horse that met what they'd been searching for, and saw the return as a safety net, a possibility they didn't really expect to need. The dealer had great feedback, including endorsement from oe of the groups supposedly dedicated to outing dodgy dealers. Many buyers had the horses vetted before taking them. It's only recently become clear that these poor horses were on a merry go round of repeated "trials" A good number of buyers have kept really problematic horses and are doing what it takes to put them in a better place. Many of her human victims are full of guilt and self blame for getting involved, because of the impact on the horses. Shaming people who've been scammed is only helping the scammers, who thrive on victims feeling ashamed, foolish and afraid to share what happened. It's about as helpful as suggesting someone who's been burgled should really consider themselves partly responsible for not upgrading their burglar alarm.
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Don't twist my words though I haven't blamed or shamed anyone.
 
Marshpiper said:
I know several proper equine rescues and not one of them relinquish ownership….They do have loaners who basically “steal” the horse by selling them……but thankfully these sort of people are rare…
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Just on this, I know that one reputable local rescue signs ownership over after 6 months and Blue Cross also now sign ownership over although no time frame is specified on their website, I'm fairly sure a few others also do this.
 
So…

Is the whole thing a dishonest money making scheme whereby the person in charge earns money from interest and provides false descriptions of goods which then get repeatedly shipped around the country with the money only arriving back much later? Yes.

Should it be investigated as fraud and something done about it? Also yes. I believe it is being looked at by the proper authorities.

On another note…

Would I advise my child, aunt, neighbours, random person I met to buy unseen and send money over the internet? Uh…no. It’s a big risk. Like all risks, sometimes it pays off. Often it doesn’t. You take a gamble if you have the money to lose. I have taken that gamble but I have paid extremely little (£500 or less) and we can cope with whatever arrives.

Something that struck me with this case though is that over and over people said they were looking for a novice proof horse - so there was a definite aim to target those perhaps more likely to be drawn in by the fraud. Offer the unicorn that realistically is very hard to find - many unicorns to choose from - then only offer a trial. Buyer cannot find one of those anywhere else so takes the risk. Only to find out that actually, people rarely sell those unicorns and the animal that arrives is not what they were told.
 
wills_91 said:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Don't twist my words though I haven't blamed or shamed anyone.
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Again, we will have to agree to disagree.

The buyers have been conned.

You are saying they should bear some of the responsibility for being conned, so you are apportioning some of the blame on the buyers.

When blaming a victim, they naturally feel a sense of shame. Whether you intended to or not, you are blaming and shaming.

Please remember that some of her victims are on this thread.
 
Buying horses is an utter minefield. People lie. All the time. If you’ve spent 12 months search to be lied to over and over, an offering like Lynn’s seems to provide protection. I mean, it’s a business, why would someone risk their business by being dishonest. Combined with the good reviews and fantastic sounding horses, it’s a win win. You cannot judge people “buying” through her based on what we now know. The blame sits firmly with Lynn.
 
DabDab said:
Yeah, I appreciate that it isn't a popular opinion, but I also struggle with feeling unbounded sympathy for people buying a living, breathing, sentient animal because a 2 week trial and no quibble return made it an attractive sales package. The horses are the true victims in this woman's nonsense, and while I feel sympathy for people that were conned, I just can't imagine bringing a horse into my life with the idea in my head from the offset that I will just send it back after a couple of weeks if I'm not happy with my purchase.

I've bought unseen, and from sales etc. but in my mind they were always coming to me to stay, and if for whatever reason they had not been suitable then I absolutely would have given them a proper period of time in my care before moving them on again. Horses carrying the emotional turmoil and burden of a human's mistake just feels really barbaric to me.
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The saying 'You never know until you're in that situation' is very true.

I appreciate it's very off topic but I'll give you an example of this.

Without giving too much away to identify myself, a few years ago someone very close to me was the victim of a horrible assault. We're talking a severe injury.

I did not react or feel how I thought I would, or should. I was calm, reasoned, didn't cry - literally it was like any other normal day. Most of those around me could not understand. Even the police were surprised at how calm I was. A lot of my friends were aghast and some have not spoken to me since.

It didn't mean I didn't care, or wasn't thinking straight. It's just how I reacted at that time.

What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that none of us know how, and what, someone is feeling in any given moment. We don't always react, or behave, how others think we should or even how we imagine we would in a situation. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and judge but until you're in a situation, you can't judge others for what you perceive as good or bad decisions.

Scammers, con artists, whatever we like to call them, are highly accomplished and sophisticated. It does not matter if it's parting with money for investment, a product, an animal or anything else. They know their game well and can fool even the most intelligent, experienced, and aware, individuals.

I think the aggravating factor here is that this was the sale of sentient beings where there is, in my opinion, a higher level of emotional investment than there would otherwise be.
 
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