The 'Grand' National?

[tess1]

Of course they're bred to be slaughtered, eventually. With respect, I'd suggest that rather than lecturing an industry as to their levels of ethics and morality, that you join others and campaign, lobbying our self promoting equine charities, that they affect a change in Government policies and re-open our equine abattoirs, which when licensed and properly administered to will provide owners with a logical and a kindly and a humane end for our horses.

Considering our possibly well intentioned 'Equine Charities', have you considered that without a nurtured need for a 'rescue' (sic) system, they'd be out of business? Be assured of one point; Equine Charities are 'Businesses' all of them!

Alec.

Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.

 

[BigBuck's]

Yes, I agree entirely with all of your comments, but racing is a multi-million pound industry which provides a livelihood for thousands, and entertainment for hundreds of thousands of people - even more for the famous races. If Joe Bloggs falls of his ladder clearing out his roof gutter, there's not much can be done ... in a workplace there are procedures in place to protect employees, or be held accountable if someone is deemed to have taken unnecessary risks with someone else's safety and well being. The racing industry is an industry ... not an individual ... therefore they should (to my mind) be held accountable for the well-being of their "employees" - ie, the horses (a bit anthropomorphic, but hopefully you get the drift). The bottom line is, responsibility for these animals has to stop somewhere. Everyone on here keeps passing the buck like a hot cake - it's the fault of the owners who don't send their horses safely to slaughter, or the numpties who try to help by re-homing a TB, the rabid anti-slaughter brigade, the press whipping up concern to sell newspapers, the animal right extremists, the idiots who try to make the National course easier, the damn randomness of genetics that won't allow you to just breed the perfect horse without making mistakes, and so what if those mistakes are living, feeling creatures that now no one wants... or trying to detract from the argument by saying that something else is worse - yes, it may be "worse", but that does not make racing "better".

I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress. More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example). RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining. The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction. The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too. The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?

 

[Optimissteeq]

I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress. More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example). RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining. The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction. The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too. The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?

Agree with this - positive reinforcement/encouragement can often produce better results than negativity/arguing. More promotion of the good work racing is doing to re-home racehorses would surely result in perpetuation and more people would want to join in maybe?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

The 'outcry' as you put it, and one which was media enhanced, was over the deception and the highly questionable standards of meat hygiene, rather than the fact that we may be eating a horse. If we choose to eat 'horse' then it's no different to any other meat, taste dependent, that is!

Alec.

That is your opinion as to why there was an outcry, and not fact

 

[Alec Swan]

Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.

Two points for you, firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault, as are the established equine charities, and secondly, it isn't the fault horses, but those who would, generally from an unrealistic standpoint, refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep, as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives, and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.

Alec.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.

*like*

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress. More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example). RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining. The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction. The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too. The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?

Thanks for the info BB. It is good to know

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Two points for you, firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault, as are the established equine charities, and secondly, it isn't the fault horses, but those who would, generally from an unrealistic standpoint, refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep, as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives, and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.

This is a typical response from you Alec.

You oversimplify the issue - horses have a different role in our lives than a farm animal who is bred for slaughter. We have a relationship with horses that is far different from animals that are traditionally bred for meat. You also assume that anyone who does not agree with you is ill informed, and although well intentioned is something of an idiot.

I think I probably need to get familiar with "user ignore"

 

[Alec Swan]

This is a typical response from you Alec.

You oversimplify the issue - horses have a different role in our lives than a farm animal who is bred for slaughter.

We have a relationship with horses that is far different from animals that are traditionally bred for meat.

You also assume that anyone who does not agree with you is ill informed, and although well intentioned is something of an idiot.

I think I probably need to get familiar with "user ignore"

Line 1: It seems that you aren't disappointed!

Line 2: Those who 'over-simplify' simply attempt to undo the nonsense of those who would equally 'over-complicate'.

Line 3: 'We'? You may, but others don't, and they're as entitled to their views as you are.

Line 4: At no point have I accused anyone of idiocy. A lack of understanding, certainly.

Line 5: Fine by me, but before you do, would you consider that a horse is any LESS entitled to a compassionate and humane end to its life than a sheep or a steer? Are you really so determined that horses should live out their final days in misery? A pointless question, I accept, as by now you've probably awarded me the undoubted distinction of a welcome UI status!

Alec.

 

[Maesfen]

I want a like Alec button for ^^ that reply.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

I want a like Alec button for ^^ that reply.

Me too.

 

[fburton]

All horses will die at some point. It is what happens to them between birth and death that is important and that death is humane.

Totally agree - and whether or not love or 'love' is professed is immaterial to the horse.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.

DG I'm not sure you are right though - I just don't think its info that is widely known. Its really helpful that BB has provided the info

 

[fburton]

I have never been a racehorse trainer or owner, nor would like to ever go down this avenue but I imagine that trying to find homes for ex racehorses is a total nightmare, due mainly to their breed.

Is it really the breeding more than the training? I brought up a TB from a foal and didn't do much more with him than hacking out, and while he enjoyed his gallops he had a super gentle temperament - biddable, willing and kind.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

DG I'm not sure you are right though - I just don't think its info that is widely known. Its really helpful that BB has provided the info

If you go to any show runnign an exracehors/RoR cass they are massively supported...an increase in the last few years eg. a local show I help run used to have about 3-5 entrants every year, a local trainer donated a prize and in recent years this has become oneof the most entered classes with 20 odd in a class- this is also something I have seen at several other local shows (and its not always the same people)

This is also seen at teh 'higher' end shows eg. county and agricultural, all the big shows I've been to either as a competitor or spectator it has been quite noticeable how popular/strongly supported the RoR challenge/class is. And I'm yet to meet a big time horse at one of these, talking to the owners the vast majority were run once/couple of times and were useless or had the very odd success at low-levels.

 

[tess1]

Two points for you, firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault, as are the established equine charities, and secondly, it isn't the fault horses, but those who would, generally from an unrealistic standpoint, refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep, as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives, and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.

Alec.

I wonder how all the folk who work picking up the pieces for these race horses would feel about your opinion. I don't think anyone has suggested that race horses who no longer race should be left to live out their lives in neglect, or exploited as an income stream, or denied a humane end so I am not sure where you would get any of those ideas from. I am pleased to see however that you acknowledge that the racing industry is, indeed, in a frightful mess - although frankly that mess is of its own doing, as it is very clear that the industry is influenced little, or not at all, by those outside it.

 

[tess1]

It is very gratifying to read of the ways in which some folk are pro-actively trying to address the problem of what to do with race horses that no longer race - although some people seem to be suggesting it's better to just ship them all off to slaughter as they are going to die at some point anyway.

 

[ester]

Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.

It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.

 

[tess1]

It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.

Who knows ... it could even be that some overly-emotional, under-informed numpties have put a little pressure on the racing industry to come up with a way to improve its image with regard to the fate of its racehorses.

 

[MurphysMinder]

There were more than 11 MM (so I was told) many of them taken from our local practices; I know Hampton, Fyrnwy, Nantwich were all well represented plus experienced horse people at every fence and turn, anywhere a horse could (or shouldn't) go ready for any eventuality.
The vet scraping him off comes to me sometimes, she's top class and a really hands on person, he wouldn't have been in better hands.

Yes, she is excellent isn't she. Was out to my Cushings pony only last week, talk about chalk and cheese.

 

[Dobiegirl]

It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.

As I said way back Im on a lot of racing fb groups one of which is where are they now, its wonderful seeing all the people posting photos and an update on their horses, some of these horses were in training and never made it to the race course but the trainers/owners had made sure they went to good homes. Its heart warming to read of people asking about if anyone remembered their horses in training and the amount of stable staff on there who do and provide photos of way back, there are a lot of good people out there doing their best and this needs to be recognised and applauded.


IMO the nub of the matter is syndicates not all of them but the AW horses seem to be the ones who are most at risk, the low end of horse racing if you like, it is being addressed though and a lot of people are involved trying to solve it. IMO Greyhound racing is far worse as there are too few outlets for them when they have finished racing and a date with a bolt gun is very likely.

 

[BigBuck's]

Who knows ... it could even be that some overly-emotional, under-informed numpties have put a little pressure on the racing industry to come up with a way to improve its image with regard to the fate of its racehorses.

You really do seem unable or unwilling in the extreme to allow for the possibility that people within racing may have recognised of their own accord that more needed to be done and acted accordingly. Does it stick in your craw too much to give even a little bit of credit where it's due?

 

[tess1]

Well, I can only go by what I have read on here ... and, to be honest, if the attitude represented by the majority of the pro-racing fraternity on here is indicitive of the attitude in racing overall I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run. Many people have been very blase ... a more 'emotive' person may say 'callous' ... about the prospect of fit, healthy animals being sent off to slaughter because they simply don't fulfil the needs of the owners any longer, or they are surplus to requirements. Not to mention the kind of lives they are subjected to, or the risks that are taken with them, or the injuries they suffer on the race course. So no, it does not 'stick in my craw' at all if it is genuinely the case that there were enough people, with some 'clout' within the industry, who cared enough about the animals to take a pro-active stance ... as opposed to being motivated to do so by pressure being put on from outside by welfare organisations, charities and even the general public as awareness grew of the fate of racehorses once their 'useful' days were over.

 

[BigBuck's]

Well, I can only go by what I have read on here ... and, to be honest, if the attitude represented by the majority of the pro-racing fraternity on here is indicitive of the attitude in racing overall I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run. Many people have been very blase ... a more 'emotive' person may say 'callous' ... about the prospect of fit, healthy animals being sent off to slaughter because they simply don't fulfil the needs of the owners any longer, or they are surplus to requirements. Not to mention the kind of lives they are subjected to, or the risks that are taken with them, or the injuries they suffer on the race course. So no, it does not 'stick in my craw' at all if it is genuinely the case that there were enough people, with some 'clout' within the industry, who cared enough about the animals to take a pro-active stance ... as opposed to being motivated to do so by pressure being put on from outside by welfare organisations, charities and even the general public as awareness grew of the fate of racehorses once their 'useful' days were over.

Fine. A couple of people (hardly "many") have said they feel slaughter is preferable to a downward spiral of decline and neglect, and from that you've extrapolated negative assumptions about every single individual within racing. I don't feel there's any point in continuing a debate with someone as close-minded as that. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Well,I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run. .

I'm glad to say that IME, you are very, very wrong.

 

[tess1]

Fine. A couple of people (hardly "many") have said they feel slaughter is preferable to a downward spiral of decline and neglect, and from that you've extrapolated negative assumptions about every single individual within racing. I don't feel there's any point in continuing a debate with someone as close-minded as that. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

not quite ... the majority (please note my use of the word 'majority' - as it was used in my previous post, still allowing for a 'minority') of the pro-racing people have gone to great lengths to tell me that it is unrealistic or undesirable to retire or re-home ex-racehorses, that they have no problem with seeing them slaughtered, indeed they are born to die, so why not just crack on and get it over with, and that a multi-million pound industry cannot take any sort of responsibility for these animals once they have served out their useful purpose. I have not in any way said that a downward spiral of neglect is preferable to a humane death. What is preferable to an untimely death is a safe, happy retirement, or the potential to retrain for another activity. The majority of pro-race posters on this thread do not seem to belive that is a feasible alternative. I am glad (if what you say is correct) that some folk within the industry were more compassionate and imaginative than many (but clearly not all) on this thread.

 

[tess1]

I'm glad to say that IME, you are very, very wrong.

And I am very, very glad to hear it.

 

[tess1]

I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/

Thanks for posting, it was quite an eye opener. I would be interested to hear the views of those on here who have been clear that racing is supporting its own, or at least starting to, as this seems to be quite the reverse.