The nagging feeling that riding horses is just odd

Mrs. Jingle said:
Really? Don't be too sure, you have no way of knowing what thought process I might have. If the horse was old and sick, the chicken young and healthy, well then what would I choose? As equinerebel said that is very much the trolley question. And more about one's own ethical decisions in any given scenario so really not quite the point of the discussion is it?
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It is when you're questioning my level of empathy! If you have to caveat it so that the horse has to be old and sick and the chicken has to be young and healthy then you've answered my question as expected.
 
I’ve definitely changed as I’ve got older. I very much was a “my horses are for riding” person in my teens and twenties. Then I mellowed somewhat in my thirties and now I’m a self-confessed bunny hugger 😅

I bathed Millie tonight as it was too warm to ride and I had great fun washing her and brushing her tail through and making her look lovely. Bathing used to be a necessity, not a task to be enjoyed, so I’ve definitely changed!

I will say that I feel my most at home in a saddle. Everything just fits how it should and I feel that’s where I belong. It’s as normal to me as sitting in a chair (more so, I imagine). I can’t imagine ever giving that feeling up.

I had 12 weeks out of the saddle after my accident and the second I got the go ahead, I was back on board. It was like a craving, I can’t really explain it. My whole body needed to be back up there. Weird.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I don't think anyone has said they'd buy a horse as a pet(?) People do buy horses to ride but a lot of people are now questioning the ethics of doing this so potentially these people will stop riding and not buy future horses therefore less will be bred. So the sport and horses in general will be phased out.

There'd be no mass abandonment, the people that are worrying about the ethics of riding aren't about to dump their horses.

This isn't talking about some sudden change in law, it's talking about what is seen as socially acceptable and change over time.
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Yeah, maybe you're right. I think it'll be a real shame. Another human-animal connection gone and even more of a shame when I have seen horses and ponies actively benefit from ridden work.

Still not convinced that all businesses and individuals will responsibly wind down and phase out horses. Nothing in human nature or business practice gives me confidence that that will be the case.
 
Somewhat Off The Way said:
It is when you're questioning my level of empathy! If you have to caveat it so that the horse has to be old and sick and the chicken has to be young and healthy then you've answered my question as expected.
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But that is my very point, I haven't answered your question and you are making assumptions about other people's decisions based on your own viewpoint. You still do not know would I choose the healthy young chicken or the sick and sorry old horse do you, because I haven't told you what my decision would be.

I have not 'questioned' your level of empathy I have merely commented on it as it relates to my own experience and empathy with sentient beings. You can be wrong you know, as can I and others, or agree to disagree but if you just want to flog a dead horse (pun very much intended) then work away. Just don't expect any intelligent input from others if that is how you want to handle a discussion with opinions that might not match your own.
 
It’s a big, difficult, uncomfortable subject for sure. I think there are horses that DO enjoy the process of being ridden and how working with their rider makes them feel and there are some that do not. There are some horses for whom riding does seem to have positive physical and mental benefits and there are those that this isn’t true for.

On the whole I do not think the Fuzzball has enjoyed ridden work. Whilst he was able to be ridden it was by far the most effective form of exercise for keeping weight off him but I don’t it benefitted his other physical issues overall. I do not think that the very small amount of ridden work he has done is the cause of his problems he has though. I do think we would have ended up where we are now in roughly the same timeframe regardless of him being ridden or not.

The Welsh D I used to have most definitely WAS sounder and mentally happier when in ridden work. The mileage and fast work that we were able to do as part of this helped his metabolic wonkyness / allowed him more and better turnout. When he developed issues that meant being ridden was no longer possible his other problems got worse.

On the whole I think he enjoyed being ridden but yes sometimes there were things he found stressful. He didn’t initially like or enjoy hacking on his own but in order to up the mileage he was doing as part of his hoof rehab it was necessary and it’s something he did eventually enjoy (& obviously working on appropriate surfaces literally did make him sounder and improve his feet so had measurable benefits to him). Again there were elements of some of the adventures I took him on (staying away from his herd for example) that he may have preferred to avoid but I think he did enjoy seeing new scenery and figuring out new puzzles so on balance I still don’t think they were an unreasonable ask, just things that minorly disrupted his life for a few days.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
But that is my very point, I haven't answered your question and you are making assumptions about other people's decisions based on your own viewpoint. You still do not know would I choose the healthy young chicken or the sick and sorry old horse do you, because I haven't told you what my decision would be.

I have not 'questioned' your level of empathy I have merely commented on it as it relates to my own experience and empathy with sentient beings. You can be wrong you know, as can I and others, or agree to disagree but if you just want to flog a dead horse (pun very much intended) then work away. Just don't expect any intelligent input from others if that is how you want to handle a discussion with opinions that might not match your own.
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I'm just responding to having my empathy "commented on" which is extremely personal. If you want a more intelligent discussion then stop making such personal remarks and then getting all uppity when I bite back. Your initial response to my chicken or horse question betrayed you and now you're trying to turn it back on me.

I'd save the horse and I'm not ashamed to say it.
 
Somewhat Off The Way said:
Yeah, maybe you're right. I think it'll be a real shame. Another human-animal connection gone and even more of a shame when I have seen horses and ponies actively benefit from ridden work.
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You must have seen a lot uncomfortable and unhappy horses being ridden as well?
Somewhat Off The Way said:
Still not convinced that all businesses and individuals will responsibly wind down and phase out horses. Nothing in human nature or business practice gives me confidence that that will be the case.
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Today a riding school has 10 people booked in per hour per week. Next year the same riding school notices they only have 8 people booked in per hour. The year after 6 people etc. It would make business sense for them to sell a pony and never replace it. This goes on and on as there's less demand.

They won't know they're phasing out horses but that is what will naturally be happening over time.

As it happens, I'm very anti the 'ethical vegan' belief that we should have nothing to do with other animals. I think we should find a way of living together and I have no concerns in general about the ethics of keeping lots of animals as pets.
 
I'm late 30's if that helps, didn't come from a horsey background and do have some ambitions as yet unachieved but they don't drive me, particularly either. Like 'it'll be cool if that happened but I'd still enjoy myself if it didn't' kind of way.

I've never hidden that I would be very unlikely to buy a horse I couldn't ride from the start. Or at least not with my current circumstances Although a non-ridden horse would cost largely the same a non-ridden one for me, as someone that has to keep their horse at someone rlse's property on some form of livery, it's quite an expense to take on knowing I'll never ride.

Edited to add: I'll keep my current horse for the rest of his natural days, ridden or not (and I'm keeping everything crosssed for a long retirement) but I'm not sure I'd necessarily keep a hypothetical 5 year old I bought that went lame 6 months after purchase retired for the next 20 years either paying £5/600 a month either. I wouldn't pass a lame horse on but I'd potentially make a very sad decision to PTS.

I absolutely love tacking my horse up and heading out into the hills for hours and hours hacking. Being on a horse out in the countryside, cantering along watching the sunrise through hills and the treeline before the rest of the world wakes up and before I have to go to work is magical. It brings me a certain type of peace buy yet is so energising in a way I've yet to find elsewhere.

But, I can only get that by knowing I've done everything I can to ensure my horse is as happy as he can be.

Don't get me wrong, I love kisses and cuddles, sitting in the field with mine and just chilling, grooming etc too. He's a hoot so just being with him isn't a chore.

I absolutely love my horse and my dog but there's no denying my dog is far cheaper to get out and about with, so if I knew I could never have a ridden horse again, I don't think I'd buy one. I'd still be involved in horses but not owning.

However, I've also loved my scenic route in the horse world when I couldn't ride to take in things like reiki, essential oils, meditation session with my horse next to me, playing at horse agility, in-hand walking instead of hacking as I've had so much fun and I think all of those things have made me a better human as well as a better horse person. And it's absolutely changed my relationship with my own horse, how I view interactions with mine and other's to come.

Whether someone chooses to ride or not is each to their own, as long as horse welfare comes first.
 
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Clodagh said:
Animals all earn their keep one way or another, or we wouldn’t buy them. Pleasure in their company/being good for the soul can be a perfect justification. But it’s not for everyone.

I don’t mean this to be nasty… but mainly I’m making the sweeping assumption that the anti riding people in here are maybe older and have many years of happy hacking/schooling/ competing behind them. Many get softer and more empathetic as they mature, I have, although i have no issue with animals having jobs.
I think now to want to maybe put younger people who haven’t had all the fun put in a position where they feel bad for doing so is maybe a bit rude? (Maybe not rude but I can’t think of a better word).
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I'm not especially young (33) but I'm glad you posted this because I've felt it before on similar threads. It feels a bit much to be told by people who've essentially had their fill of riding that now we should be questioning whether we should do it at all, when the childhood dream that remains for many of us is still hanging around (or still in process of being lived!) I don't think that equates to condoning riding unwell/unfit/unhappy horses though.


I don't believe that adrenaline and/or tension automatically mean the horse is stressed/having a negative experience.

I don't fully buy into the consent thing, especially when it's being talked about from a human perspective. That doesn't mean I think forcing horses with fear or pain is okay.

I do think that horses (and pets) have a job even if they do not literally 'earn their keep'. The job might be hacking or show jumping or just existing to be taken care of or for companionship. My definition of job/earning keep is a broad one.

Horses and humans go way back, as we all know. So in a way I think riding is a bit odd but also, very much not because human history is so entwined with horses and riding (or other forms of work).
 
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Bellaboo18 said:
You must have seen a lot uncomfortable and unhappy horses being ridden as well?
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Yes, of course. I can't watch top level dressage or show jumping. From what I've seen eventers and racehorses seem to fare better (not all of them of course). My welfare concerns for them is more their day to day care than their actual ridden work. (Particularly the length of time theyre stabled).

Perhaps the solution is more riding and husbandry education for the younger generations (without a competitive element!). Too many people just don't know what to look for and they want a ready made, push-button horse. When the horse doesn't go as expected they resort to gadgets and aids and pony club kicking and it's all very grim.

I came to riding in my 20s so maybe that makes a difference and I'm just a happy hacker so don't expect too much from my horses.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
Today a riding school has 10 people booked in per hour per week. Next year the same riding school notices they only have 8 people booked in per hour. The year after 6 people etc. It would make business sense for them to sell a pony and never replace it. This goes on and on as there's less demand.

They won't know they're phasing out horses but that is what will naturally be happening over time.
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I worked in a vet lab and the breeding programme for top level TBs is intense. The money involved is immense. I can't see them slowing down without a fight. You might end up with more being exported to countries with lower welfare standards. At the other end there are people who breed indiscriminately, stick a harness or a saddle on them and sell them as quickly as possible. They're unlikely to be effected by the steady decline of responsible riders and then may "suddenly" find themselves with too much stock. So I think that the end of riding wouldn't necessarily be without cost. But maybe I'm too pessimistic.
 
I have come to think of getting on board a member of another species as really a bit odd (I can't say why I feel that specifically, though) but it's a feeling that's compounded by the knowledge that half or more of horses considered sound/pain-free by their owners aren't, and that huge numbers of horses are living really sub-optimal lives for many reasons. In those circumstances, expecting most of them to be ridden as well (particularly as a means of correcting/compensating for areas of their lives that are lacking) is starting to feel like it's adding insult to injury, slightly.
 
Ive also changed how I think about riding and competing OP. Im trying to make it as kind as possible so I have just ordered myself a bitless bridle to try. I know people will moan that they can be just as severe but Im not severe with my hands and I figure surely its preferable from a horses point of view than a bit in its mouth. I have literally thrown away my lunging equipment like bungee's etc. and have been lunging in nothing but a headcollar now for a couple of years. I think its good for us to question our horses welfare and try and do our very best for them. I also struggle to watch competition nowadays and I was a massive competitor for years (eventing and BS). I cant bear to watch top level dressage anymore as it just looks so uncomfortable especially knowing that even the "best" riders in the world do bad stuff behind closed doors, I dont really trust any of them anymore which is sad.
 
I have horses I ride and horses that I don’t ride . I have one that genuinely loves his job and or me … he runs to the gate when he sees me and gets ‘weljel ‘if I talk to another horse … he likes the attention so much that riding is part of that. 16.2 high and similar wide I doubt the monkey sat on his back feels more than a back pack to him … but he will also happily go for a walk in hand … I genuinely think he just likes being with me. I have a mare that doesn’t like people really, she tolerates humans rather than likes them but does
Like her stable and gets pissy if you try to leave her out 24/7… which she is at the moment and is definitely not happy
About it… but her job is minding the babies and they too are out full time at the moment… she sees me and she runs for the gate but I am under no illusion this is about me - it’s about her stable.

To suggest that horses don’t like work is akin to saying they all do like work. To say they don’t have to earn their keep
Is also bogus… we do all have to earn a living and that includes animals — the amount most horses work is minimal and they are treated incredibly well compared to other animals.

Does every human like their job? Do they heck. Does every human like house work … well this one doesn’t. For life to work and for us to be comfortable in our surroundings we all have to do somethings we don’t enjoy.

Equally I doubt wild horses enjoy being hunted by predators or dealing with pain without vet care but that is part of their life… nothing is perfect…

As long as we do our best to attend to our equine’s needs they are doing a whole lot better than many species on the planet because of their special place in human’s lives
 
I should add - and Boulty made me think of it - it is so clear the endorphin rush my horse gets after even just a plod (which is generally what we do under saddle now) and it is glaringly obvious the difference in him before and after. His posture is also much better acter having been worked - whether ridden or ground work or long line.

Frankly I am in the camp that as long as horse is happy, who is to judge. Some will. Some won't. Some can't. The imperative bit is recognizing whether the horse is happy with its job.
 
FWIW, I won’t be buying another for the foreseeable future. There’s many reasons including finances, the never ending stress of livery yards, and my growing concern of how climate change is affecting how we can realistically keep horses. But I’m sure I will still be involved in horses one way or another.

So no, I have no plans to buy a non ridden or ridden horse again. I still love riding, I just don’t know how I can ever be sure the horse is pain free. And that bothers me a great deal.
 
I'm also 31, did grow up riding but had a long break from young teenage years to early twenties. Never competed.

I think my feeling really started after finding my current horse that ended up being my "heart horse". She's my best friend so why would I want to make her do anything she wouldn't naturally do? I want to make her happy and pamper her. It's a hard thing to compete with in my mind as I still want to ride and she does still enjoy it from what I can tell.
 
blitznbobs said:
To say they don’t have to earn their keep
Is also bogus… we do all have to earn a living and that includes animals — the amount most horses work is minimal and they are treated incredibly well compared to other animals.

Does every human like their job? Do they heck. Does every human like house work … well this one doesn’t. For life to work and for us to be comfortable in our surroundings we all have to do somethings we don’t enjoy.

Equally I doubt wild horses enjoy being hunted by predators or dealing with pain without vet care but that is part of their life… nothing is perfect…

As long as we do our best to attend to our equine’s needs they are doing a whole lot better than many species on the planet because of their special place in human’s lives
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'earning keep' is an entirely human construct that has nothing to do with the animals that we bring into our human-constructed society, except that we impose it on them. I think it's entirely bogus to say that an animal should earn its keep and it implies that the animal has a level of understanding of this concept, which is only going to encourage those people who think that because they pay the bills the horse owes them its physical integrity.

Natural stressors that horses have evolved alongside have entirely different impacts on horses mentally and physically than the ones we impose on them in the form of confinement, social isolation/churn, a lack of free choice, repetitive and often dysfunctional movement patterns, biologically inappropriate diets, exposure to pollutants, veterinary treatments, etc.

That the animals that we subject these things too are doing better (in numerical terms?) than other species we're less involved with doesn't reflect well on us. And perhaps horses, if they could understand this, wouldn't mourn a decline in the number of individuals if it meant that they didn't have quite such close attention from people.
 
Burnttoast said:
'earning keep' is an entirely human construct that has nothing to do with the animals that we bring into our human-constructed society, except that we impose it on them. I think it's entirely bogus to say that an animal should earn its keep and it implies that the animal has a level of understanding of this concept, which is only going to encourage those people who think that because they pay the bills the horse owes them its physical integrity.

Natural stressors that horses have evolved alongside have entirely different impacts on horses mentally and physically than the ones we impose on them in the form of confinement, social isolation/churn, a lack of free choice, repetitive and often dysfunctional movement patterns, biologically inappropriate diets, exposure to pollutants, veterinary treatments, etc.

That the animals that we subject these things too are doing better (in numerical terms?) than other species we're less involved with doesn't reflect well on us. And perhaps horses, if they could understand this, wouldn't mourn a decline in the number of individuals if it meant that they didn't have quite such close attention from people.
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Horses would not exist without humans - they would have died out about 11000
Years ago without humans … our histories are so intertwined that like dogs and house spiders they are absolutely symbiotic with us.
 
blitznbobs said:
To suggest that horses don’t like work is akin to saying they all do like work. To say they don’t have to earn their keep
Is also bogus… we do all have to earn a living and that includes animals — the amount most horses work is minimal and they are treated incredibly well compared to other animals.

Does every human like their job? Do they heck. Does every human like house work … well this one doesn’t. For life to work and for us to be comfortable in our surroundings we all have to do somethings we don’t enjoy.
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Horses, like all animals that aren’t human, have no idea what capitalism is. It isn’t fair to say they have to fit into this entirely human construct.

They don’t have to do a job, they don’t have to earn their keep, they don’t owe us anything.

Why should they have to be a part of an entirely different species idea of how to do life? What makes humans right?

If a human doesn’t like their job, most of the time they have options to leave it. If a horse doesn’t like their “job”, in my experience, most of the time the rider will continue on anyway whilst calling them “feisty”, “spicy”, or “sharp” etc etc
 
It would be a great pity if riding were banned. I can think of many disabled people whose lives have been changed beyond belief by the RDA. They are very careful to choose the kind of horse who takes to that kind of work, and train them well, so I would hope that their horses have a happy life too.
 
I have to say, after reading the full thread, and then going away to think about it, has made me question if bringing them back under saddle (bareback pad!) to go for wanders about is the right thing to do. Is it for my benefit, or theirs, or would it be beneficial to all of us? Is it selfish?
 
AutumnDays said:
I have to say, after reading the full thread, and then going away to think about it, has made me question if bringing them back under saddle (bareback pad!) to go for wanders about is the right thing to do. Is it for my benefit, or theirs, or would it be beneficial to all of us? Is it selfish?
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If it’s for your benefit that doesn’t automatically make it a bad thing, so long as the horse is fine with it.

I guess you won’t know until you try it and see how your horse takes to it. The fact you are worried it might not be right just means you are about your horse it doesn’t mean it must be wrong.

I wish we could just ask them!
 
AutumnDays said:
I have to say, after reading the full thread, and then going away to think about it, has made me question if bringing them back under saddle (bareback pad!) to go for wanders about is the right thing to do. Is it for my benefit, or theirs, or would it be beneficial to all of us? Is it selfish?
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Try it and see

It'll be down to your individual horse in the end
 
blitznbobs said:
Horses would not exist without humans - they would have died out about 11000
Years ago without humans … our histories are so intertwined that like dogs and house spiders they are absolutely symbiotic with us.
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Again, says unflattering things about us that any species we can't exploit is doomed to extinction. Exploiting individual animals in often unpleasant ways simply to save their species from extinction doesn't seem to me to be doing them a favour.
 
Burnttoast said:
Again, says unflattering things about us that any species we can't exploit is doomed to extinction. Exploiting individual animals in often unpleasant ways simply to save their species from extinction doesn't seem to me to be doing them a favour.
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commensal domestication kinda refutes that all domestic animals are 'exploited'

Plus there's plenty of us working, albeit often in small ways, to keep going species from which humanity doesn't benefit at all, actually it would arguably benefit us if they were allowed to go extinct
 
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