The rise of individual turnout musings

[SO1]

Bert is on individual turnout for 2 weeks then he will join the gelding herd.

His previous owner has kept him on individual turnout for the last 2 years so this is what he is used to and keeping him in the same routine for a couple of weeks to get used to the yard and everyone before putting him with strange horses and a different routine I felt was best.

Also 14 days is the when the insurance starts covering tendon and ligament injuries etc so if he does get an injury or picks up a virus from another horse then at least it is covered. Thr first 14 days is external injury only but doesn't cover tendons or ligaments.

Hopefully the introduction will go well he is a super friendly chap and unshod so I doubt he will hurt anyone but I worry about him being small and not used to big horses and getting hurt by one of the bigger ones. There is a 14h 5 years old connemara in the group so hopefully they will be buddies.

Homey moved yards 3 times in the 14 years I had him but he was very well socialised having been a forest run stallion. However he did jump out once just after he got put in with the geldings at this yard we think he got cornered by the water trough. At my previous yard he got kicked and ended up with a broken splint bone. When he jumped out in an another field he was then upset as he was on his own. So I hope Bert will be ok. I do think as herd animals that they need friends. Homey enjoyed playing with the other geldings.

Bert will go out in a group of 6 with one other pony and 4 big horses.

 

[exracehorse]

But that is about management, not about individual vs herd turnout.

How would management stop 15 horses in one field kicking off in the winter when it’s one gate in and out and owners are arriving at different times to bring in.

 

[exracehorse]

There are few things more worrying than being on a yard where new horses are added to the herd your horses are in and you have no involvement in it or control over it. You might be told on the day it’s joining or even just see a new horse in the field. You are almost waiting for the call to say that your horse has been injured or that your horse has injured another. I’m not sure which is worse.

Yep. Been there. Dougal got kicked when two new horses arrived one day. No notification. Poor Beau our Arab would stand at the back of the group and you had to wade through the mud to catch him while others hogged the gate. Chester used to barge through and knock you flying. One used to kick.

 

[Caol Ila]

Hah! You find individual turnout in the West of Scotland! I'll give you £100 and a cookie.

Gypsum necessitated it because she was a health hazard to herself and other horses when out in a herd, and it was the bane of my feckin' life. Yard moves made me wonder who I was going to shoot first...her or myself. I stayed at a yard 30 mile away that I hated for eight years because I could find no other individual turnout options which would have been closer and sucked less (even one of those would have been an improvement). So, yes, I guess there is that yard. Also, no. My current two love their horsey friends and have great social skils and would be unhappy about individual turnout anyway. I also have no realistic options for that. LOL.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Mine are always out together but I find Mim needs a break from other horses. If she’s constantly interacted with, she gets grumpy and then there is face-pulling and leg-waving.

If she can take herself off into a far corner then she’s fine but if she’s with a needy horse who follows her around she will break out of the electric-fenced section of the field and go off on her own. She’s very independent so isn’t fazed about not having company - unfortunately her current field mate is less so and yells her head off so rumbles Mim every time.

I now separate them for a few hours a day just to give Mim some space. Once she’s had some space, she’s perfectly happy to socialise again.

 

[shanti]

I have 3 together and if I wasn't so certain that they thrive from being in a herd I would absolutely choose individual turnout, it would make feeding, bringing in, taking out so much easier for me, plus reduce the cuts and grazes they inevitably get from playing. I can see the appeal from an owner perspective, but I can't justify doing it myself just to make my job easier.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Hah! You find individual turnout in the West of Scotland! I'll give you £100 and a cookie.

Gypsum necessitated it because she was a health hazard to herself and other horses when out in a herd, and it was the bane of my feckin' life. Yard moves made me wonder who I was going to shoot first...her or myself. I stayed at a yard 30 mile away that I hated for eight years because I could find no other individual turnout options which would have been closer and sucked less (even one of those would have been an improvement). So, yes, I guess there is that yard. Also, no. My current two love their horsey friends and have great social skils and would be unhappy about individual turnout anyway. I also have no realistic options for that. LOL.

Turnberry, Maccawston, sundrum, westwood, jelliston, woodlands and mine all west … is it £100 per livery or just them all

 

[ycbm]

How would management stop 15 horses in one field kicking off in the winter when it’s one gate in and out and owners are arriving at different times to bring in.

The one nearest to me insists on all the horses being brought in at the same time, for this reason. The liveries then complain that the horses are in too early and that the yard owner is charging them for the service because they can't get there at the time they come in.

At the yard I was at last year a horse whose owner used treats to catch it used to mug me when I tried to get mine and then drive mine away so I couldn't catch him. Group turnout in livery can be a real problem.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There have been various threads in which owners in group turnout situations have reported being terrorised by other horses crowding the gate when they've tried to bring in just their own horse.

These people are often told they are being feeble, but if anyone suggests that they use a stick to crack at the other horses to get them to back off, posters will jump up and threaten all sorts at anyone who dares to chastise their darling thug of a horse .

It's different if they are your own horses, but at livery with owners coming and going at all times group turnout can be pretty hazardous for both humans and horses.

 

[TheMule]

How would management stop 15 horses in one field kicking off in the winter when it’s one gate in and out and owners are arriving at different times to bring in.

You make sure they have enough to eat (4 bales in round bale feeders for that number of horses), you make a good sized corral inside the gate with multiple routes then into the field, and you don’t catch with treats.

 

[blitznbobs]

You make sure they have enough to eat (4 bales in round bale feeders for that number of horses), you make a good sized corral inside the gate with multiple routes then into the field, and you don’t catch with treats.

Sounds good in theory but my big cob would still say he is coming in first… I don’t have an issue cos they are all my horses and I just stick him in his box first but at livery he would be very rude. Once caught he has manners to die for but to other horses he wants his own way on a group turn out livery yard he would be a nightmare

 

[Goldenstar]

My understanding is that the 1st horse should have 2 acres with 1 acre for every additional horse

That’s a recommendation for grass not space and it’s very very old .

 

[Gallop_Away]

There have been various threads in which owners in group turnout situations have reported being terrorised by other horses crowding the gate when they've tried to bring in just their own horse.

These people are often told they are being feeble, but if anyone suggests that they use a stick to crack at the other horses to get them to back off, posters will jump up and threaten all sorts at anyone who dares to chastise their darling thug of a horse .

It's different if they are your own horses, but at livery with owners coming and going at all times group turnout can be pretty hazardous for both humans and horses.

My horses are the most dominant in the herd however they have been taught manners around the gate. They will go back on command, simply by telling them "back" just as when I walk in their stables with their tea. I will not tolerate rude bargy behaviour from my horses. I've not once had to use a whip to achieve this either. Simply telling them to go back firmly and pushing them back with my hand on their chest consistently and firmly and they quickly realised that pushing and barging doesn't get them brought in or their tea put in their stable, but standing back and waiting patiently does.

That being said, I have told other owners that if they are being rude and barging around the gate by all mean give them a firm tap with a whip and roar at them to go back. The only thing I won't tolerate is hitting them across the face, but a firm smack on the chest and a growl is fine. However I'm told by owners on a regular basis how polite my horses are around the gate and not once has anyone needed to give them a wallop.

It's give and take IMO. I want my horses on group turnout so I feel its my responsibility to teach them good manners around the gate and if other owners need to get firm with them to keep themselves safe, then I accept that. Although I like to think I've taught mine well enough that this would not be necessary.

 

[SEL]

You make sure they have enough to eat (4 bales in round bale feeders for that number of horses), you make a good sized corral inside the gate with multiple routes then into the field, and you don’t catch with treats.

^^^^ exactly this and the best managed herd turnout I've been on was this sort of set up.

The worst was irregular haylage delivery in winter, one gateway which was in a dip so full of mud, new horses just thrown out there with no warning and DIY/ RS so horses coming in and out randomly. Saying that I can only think of one serious injury caused by another horse and he was removed from the yard (riggy gelding in a mixed herd). It was 20 acres so as long as the food kept coming the horses just made mini herds and got on with life. In summer with grass through there was never an issue.

When I was horse hunting last year one of my requirements was something that could live in a mixed herd. I knew there were no guarantees but I would have walked away from anything that knowingly couldn't deal with that. The advantage of a 4yo was he was so far down the pecking order that he was easy for the others to remind him of his manners. He was literally made to stand in the naughty corner by my old boy which was hilarious

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I’ve had horses for over 30 years and over the last 5 - 10, individual turnout seems to have become a thing. There are multiple yards near me, and I’d say only around 5% of these offer group turnout, or even pairs. Small paddocks without any form of shelter seem quite normal too.

I’ve had my horse since a yearling and she is 17 now. I’ve moved around over the years and due to this she has been on a variety of different setups. She is a horse who needs company to thrive. Sometimes this has shown itself loudly; resulting in a very stressy horse, other times much more subtle; a little quiet in demeanor, overly pleased to see me, even presenting as itchy - the one year she was so itchy she had a course of Dectomax and antihistamine. Neither stopped the itch but giving her friends did.

Maybe she an old-fashioned horse living in a modern world, maybe she shouts out her needs that bit louder, maybe I’ve had her so long I’m simply attuned to her and understand her language.

I accept some horses need individual turnout. I am however incredibly sad it’s become normalised – the standard approach to keeping a herd animal. I can’t help wondering how many behaviours, subtle or otherwise stem from this. I know there are risks to group turnout, mine has been injured in the past, yet surely mental health matters just as much? From a yard owner / owner perspective I get it, I really do, but it begs the question; whose needs are we meeting?

I would never do individual turnout out, ok some may need it due to injury or its an aggressor with other horses. I would not keep mine on individual turnout unless recovering from injury as they are horses, a herd animal who need their kind around them. Round here there are very few who do individual turnout, prob 1 %. yards then do do small groups or big groups.


Now I went on a big yard, no intro period, horse chucked straight out. The next day 5 piece size hole, trickling blood two days, vet called splint bone shattered in 19 pieces. further kicks on that injury made me box rest her for months till we bought this yard. Now strict INTRO period always in place. New horse in adjacent field for a week, then 1 group added, then next another added till all in together. Very few problems after that (touch wood), would NEVER put a new horse straight in.


Now did not work recent as one group member had vendetta against this poor mare and charged at her continuously and mare tried to jump 6 ft fence and got legs caught, she got them free, and the we tried her in the other group. No problem.

 

[Pebble101]

I have two horses. They are on individual turnout as the older one (26) cannot put up with the younger lads play, I did try but my old horse's needs take priority. I would prefer they were in together as it's far easier for me. They can and do scratch over the fence.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It's not just that it is individual turnout, it's all these fully electric fenced tiny rectangles with no shelter or shade that you see horses imprisoned in. I would never keep a horse in one of those.

Well managed and fenced individual turnout with shelter is IMHO fine as an option. Poorly managed group turnout is a nightmare.

I use electric fence small areas but they are small ponies and lami prone, but...... they have had bran new field shelters last year so they are pampered.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

'Perfect mare in every wait, saint good for children etc etc' - threatening to rear in the ring

I didn't mean to post that in this thread by the way, I've only just noticed... it was meant to be in the Brecon sales thread. Idiot!

 

[olop]

Apart from when I had my old mare and sadly lost her my boy has lived on his own (with others surrounding him) pretty much his whole life. I’m currently on a yard where they turn out in groups of 3-4, mine pretty much doesn’t socialise with the others and I think it’s probably due to his life on his own.

To be honest I don’t think herd turnout works very well, the amount that have had field related injuries since I’ve been here (4 years) is quite alarming and unfortunately we had an incident where one of the old boys fractured his knee in a fight and was sadly pts. It’s getting the balance right of the right horses and good management but sadly it doesn’t always work which is why there are so many yards that only offer individual turnout.

 

[SmartieBean09]

I think there are pros and cons to both and I have used both options.

I was involved in 2 seperate accidents at a gate with herd turnout which required a hospital for me visit both times. This made me incredibly nervous when bringing in and so I moved horse to a field on the same yard which was shared with one other my pony at the time was very anxious and individual turnout wouldnt have suited her.

When she was put down and I eventually bought another, it was small herd turnout (only 3 horses). My new pony was 23 and was being bullied by his field companions and so I moved him to individual turnout at another yard where he was much happier and I could hay his field in the winter to keep him a good weight and warm.

When he was put down, I bought a new pony and kept her at the same yard but individual turnout didnt suit her. She became anxious, spooky and nappy. We eventually moved yards where she could be in a herd and this has suited her perfectly and she is back to her dreamy self. However a new mare did arrive 1 year later and they didnt see eye to eye at all and there was serious fighting. My horse was shod and the other wasnt. My mare came off much worse and vet bill was £2k! That livery has since left and normal service resumed even with a new mare coming in. She is happy and settled.

I think it boils down to horse and owner needs. I like both for different reasons. I like being able to manage my own field ie strip grazing and the freedom of not having to worry about fighting or gate dramas but I also love seeing interaction within the herd, grooming etc (even though my horse cant quite groom others as she has to be muzzled now that we dont have the freedom to strip graze).

The only thing I dont like about individual and herd grazing is when there is no enrichment...no trees, shrubs, hedges etc, just a plain square patch of the same grass day in, day out with naff all to look at. Probably bothers me more than them though ;-)

 

[Jambarissa]

I didn't mean to post that in this thread by the way, I've only just noticed... it was meant to be in the Brecon sales thread. Idiot!

I assumed it was that poor little girl getting decked

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I assumed it was that poor little girl getting decked

It was actually a different one, cremello cob - owner was selling one due to moving out of the country and then was selling another just after it because it had been outgrown. Whole thing was a bit weird!

 

[ycbm]

It's give and take IMO. I want my horses on group turnout so I feel its my responsibility to teach them good manners around the gate and if other owners need to get firm with them to keep themselves safe, then I accept that. Although I like to think I've taught mine well enough that this would not be necessary.

I think the more crucial point for this discussion is that people can't trust all the other owners to train their own horses to have the same manners.
.

 

[Sanversera]

I have two horses. They are on individual turnout as the older one (26) cannot put up with the younger lads play, I did try but my old horse's needs take priority. I would prefer they were in together as it's far easier for me. They can and do scratch over the fence.

my set ups the same

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think the more crucial point for this discussion is that people can't trust all the other owners to train their own horses to have the same manners.
.

Quite and this is there reason group turnout doesn't always work. If it is simply a case a of chuck them all in together and leave it at that, then that is poor management on both owners and YOs. As I say if you want large group turnout, it takes more effort than just simply throwing them all in together and that be the end of it.
I'm grateful to have a responsible YO who appreciates the importance of group turnout but equally puts measures in place to ensure its as safe and harmonious as possible. I've seen someone get asked to leave because their horse was simply too aggressive. Paddocks are not overhorsed and introductions are made safely before introducing a new horse.

 

[ycbm]

I was in a place where they really thought they introduced horses carefully. They spent days in a pen getting to know the others over the fence. That worked well. But there was a pen on the boys side and a pen on the girls side, and every time a new girl was let into the groups of mares she already knew, the geldings kicked shit out of each other when she came up to the shared fence between the boys and girls.
.