The rise of individual turnout musings

[Toby_Zaphod]

Many years ago one of my horses was in a herd of 3 in a very large paddock. was the boss in that herd & we never had any issues. Since then we've moved on & had had as many as 3 horses but they have always been in individual paddocks adjacent to each other and they can groom each other over the fence. This they have all been alright with & none have been in situations that they have injured each other. I think buy giving them individual turnout we have probably save a load of cash on vet bills. It seems that most injuries to horses are caused in their turnout paddocks.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I made a point of teaching them to be independent both in paddocks and in the yard. I am a firm believer teaching them to accept being alone for periods of time, doing this helps stop stressy nappy behaviours developing and in my mind, also helps them throughout their lives.

Absolutely this.

While I do routinely keep my 3 turned out together, each one can also be turned out on their own or be the only one in the stables. You never know when it might be necessary in an emergency to keep any one of them on their own.

Even the young RSPCA fosters soon learned to wait on their own as the last in the field to be brought in or the last in the stables to be put out (I will only catch and lead one horse at a time, personal preference after being badly kicked by milling horses as a teenager).

All this fuss we keep hearing about horses not being able to wait 5 minutes on their own in their field til the handler comes back to fetch them in. I couldn't be doing with all that. Or that a horse that can't stay on vet advised box rest because it would be the only one in.

Teaching them to accept being on their own at times is setting them up to succeed.

 

[Dontforgetaboutme]

My yard does individual, paired & single sex turnout. Ideal for me as my two go out together so they have company other than when only one is being ridden but if they get injured it’s not down to anyone else’s horse. Did take a while for my senior to settle as she’s always been in herd turnout but she’s now happy to be out by herself for short period whereas before she’d need to be out with others otherwise would buck & gallop around

Eta I wouldn’t go to yard where only individual turnout was offered but I think some horses are better out on their own but with company over the fence.

 

[ihatework]

I think there is a difference between setting them up to succeed I.E being settled alone (all mine are super well behaved on individual) and expecting them to live alone for the rest of their lives!

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I think there is a difference between setting them up to succeed I.E being settled alone (all mine are super well behaved on individual) and expecting them to live alone for the rest of their lives!

A friend of mine has just posted that she is looking for her next horse. First on her wish list is that horse must live alone

 

[Meredith]

At my yard there is individual turnout for an escapologist and a laminitic asthmatic. Two mares are together.
My pony is in an area with electric fencing on his own. He is the smallest gelding 14.2. The other geldings usually eventers are at least 16.1. Some are 17.3. They are very boisterous.
F’s area is bordered on one side by a patch used for r and r or sold horses, to keep them safe. One side is a hedge and on the other 2 sides are the big boys.
F is perfectly happy. The boys come to talk to him when they’re turned out and they regularly groom over the fence. They’re so big they reach over.
YO said when I first came that she wouldn’t put a livery pony in with the boys as it could be so dangerous.

edit.. I wouldn’t object to F having suitable sized company but he is the only pony gelding.

 

[TPO]

I think there is a difference between setting them up to succeed I.E being settled alone (all mine are super well behaved on individual) and expecting them to live alone for the rest of their lives!

Exactly this

They are HERD animals. Their contact with each other isn't supposed to be over a fence or visual only.

ALL of this is done to make it possible/easier for "us" to keep them.

People keeping horses alone because that's all they want or can afford is a prime example. Human wants over animal needs.

 

[YourValentine]

I think group turn out is best, but it needs a YO/YM who is going to manage it well and pull out any horses that are bullying others or trashing rugs to make it fair and work for everyone else.

Some horses, due to upbringing or perhaps past issues, sadly don't know how to get on in a herd.

 

[TheMule]

So glad I can keep mine how I please, and have a small herd. I do, however, have a very antisocial little gelding (raised properly in a herd, he literally has no reason to be such a spoilt little git) who just lives with one slightly bossier gelding. He would probably have to be on individual turnout if I ever had to move to livery which would be a huge shame for him because he's just a bit of a thug and needs the right pal. They spend hours giving whole-body grooms. I could never deprive a horse of this- they are herd animals, it’s a basic instinct

 

[Tiddlypom]

Some horses, due to upbringing or perhaps past issues, sadly don't know how to get on in a herd.

Agree. One of the horses I knew of who had its leg broken by a kick in the field just didn’t know how to read other horses. It ignored all the warning signs to back off and *bam*, fatal injury.

 

[Birker2020]

What I do hate, and have hopefully now organized a friend for him, is him being alone. I have just spent nearly $40,000 dollars saving his life from pneumonia and yes I am still happy to “risk” him out with another horse, because to me he should be allowed to be a horse first and the risk of injury second.

I guess that's easy to say when you've not stood next to your 6yr old who has a massive open fracture of his tibia and the rest of the herd are being dragged off indoors away from the scene to leave your poor horse who is in agony alone whilst you wait for your vet to end its life (not very professionally either I might add, as it was necessary to shoot him twice).

Nor when your told that it was a good job you'd insisted on an xray of another beloved horses leg after receiving a kick because the advice of the vet was to turn the horse the horse out "which could/would have turned into a catastrophic fracture".

So no, risk away for all your worth but don't berate others for not following your lead because some of us have had dreadful experiences.

 

[dougpeg]

I think there is a difference between setting them up to succeed I.E being settled alone (all mine are super well behaved on individual) and expecting them to live alone for the rest of their lives!

100%.
Op here. This is my mare who doesn't like individual turnout and becomes a stress head.
When her basic needs are meet day to day, she is totally fine having periods on her own. I'm always the last one down and this is a typical picture of her left out on her own waiting patiently for me. She has always hacked out on her own etc. The wheels start to come off with mine when segregation becomes her norm.
Thanks so much everyone for all the contributions. We all have different views on this but what comes through clearly is that no one side fits all. The current trend for tiny segregated paddocks simply doesn't support that.

 

[Upthecreek]

So no, risk away for all your worth but don't berate others for not following your lead because some of us have had dreadful experiences.

How did you take from what Michen wrote that she was berating others for not following her lead? I took it that she was saying that in her situation with her own horse she feels it is worth the risk of injury for him to have the company of another horse. She didn’t say that you or anyone else should do that. Or have I missed something?

 

[View]

I guess that's easy to say when you've not stood next to your 6yr old who has a massive open fracture of his tibia and the rest of the herd are being dragged off indoors away from the scene to leave your poor horse who is in agony alone whilst you wait for your vet to end its life (not very professionally either I might add, as it was necessary to shoot him twice).

Nor when your told that it was a good job you'd insisted on an xray of another beloved horses leg after receiving a kick because the advice of the vet was to turn the horse the horse out "which could/would have turned into a catastrophic fracture".

So no, risk away for all your worth but don't berate others for not following your lead because some of us have had dreadful experiences.

Birker, this is very unkind to Michen. She lost a horse to a fracture that only became apparent when he was getting up from a GA. The fracture, as I recall, was the result of a kick in the field.

So no, I don’t think she finds it easy to take the risk but she is determined to do the best she can for her horse.

 

[tristar]

i would never turnout in a herd with shoes on, seen too much

horses running free over large areas are able to get out of the way, form their own bands, avoid bullies

mine live next to each other, and socialize when i put them in together and keep an eye on them ,they socialize over barriers all night outside their stables

i also have one badly reared who is improving, but has a way to go yet, and an entire who is very hot, but loves to groom over a door, and is all day in full view and next to other horses, previously i had a stallion who ran with his mares, they are all individual

my priority is to meet individual needs for a safe outcome, one mare was a born leader, she could dominate and say `oiy trot on` gently and without aggression and even the most seasoned bully would submit to her and do as she told them

its fascinating watching them interact and none are shod,

 

[Birker2020]

How did you take from what Michen wrote that she was berating others for not following her lead? I took it that she was saying that in her situation with her own horse she feels it is worth the risk of injury for him to have the company of another horse. She didn’t say that you or anyone else should do that. Or have I missed something?

It was the way she said it with the word "risk" and implying that although she'd spent thousands on him it was still better than him being on his own.

How did you take from what Michen wrote that she was berating others for not following her lead? I took it that she was saying that in her situation with her own horse she feels it is worth the risk of injury for him to have the company of another horse. She didn’t say that you or anyone else should do tha Or have I missed something?

Okay so berating might not have been the best word to use but I felt that the implication was that others are selfish for not allowing that 'risk' and it felt like a bit if a criticism.

I am genuinely sorry Michen as I wasn't aware of your loss and it was certainly not anything personal but I stand by what I say based on my horrific experience. And our yard doesn't offer herd turnout anyway so it's a moot point.

And there were many a time due to my work hours and the fact Lari wasn't ridden that he'd be turned out by me by 5pm with nothing nearby or in sight for over an hour, sometimes more and he was quite happy and not at all stressed, unlike Bailey who'd have been unable to cope without anything by her for more than 10 mins. Obviously I watched him like a hawk the first few times to make sure.

I have found the herd situation quite difficult for Lari, hopefully that will iron out now. But it's been interesting to see him interact with others, watch him with much trepidation find a friend and seeing him chilled and happy, especially as I saw him humping a mare on video last week. It came as a total shock to say the least!

I didn't want him to spend his life on his own when he wasn't a ridden horse hence why he went into a herd. But for a ridden horse that can spend time playing over the fence and making friends with the ones in the paddock next door I don't see it as unfair or a disadvantage. I see it as peace of mind.

 

[stangs]

Was pondering this thread further at the yard today.

Individual turnout where horses are able to groom over the fence, stand in close proximity to one another, and mirror each other's behaviour, is a good start. It's certainly preferable to turn out where horses cannot even touch one another.

However:
Grooming - or just touching nose to a conspecific - doesn't just occur along the neck and back, so you're still restricting those behaviours, especially among ponies who might not reach over a fence. Horses turned out together may trail their noses down their herdmate's leg, or even just rest their head by the other's hind, especially when there are flies out: individual turnout always restricts these behaviours.

It goes without saying that play-fighting is heavily restricted too - young males in particular need to do more than bitey face.

Youngstock kept on individual turnout will never fully learn how to respect other horse's space (imo), because the other horse is limited in how much they can escalate their own behaviour to correct the other's. Their neighbour can pin their ears at them, but they can't lunge at them, bite or kick much, and snaking is heavily restricted too. So, when they get turned out in a herd, these young horses won't have learnt to respect the initial warning signs because their old neighbour couldn't follow up. Are youngsters going to understand the importance of moving away from the herd when snaked, or slowly getting closer to the others, if proximity was mostly enforced by a fence and not the other horses' behaviour?

And then there're the normal, mundane behaviours that also get restricted. For example (all these taken from observing horse's herd over the course of just 1hr):
- One horse coming over to inspect the patch of grass that another was grazing on, and then grazing beside the other so close that they were almost touching noses the whole time
- One horse looking at my grooming kit on the ground worriedly and only approaching it when another horse inspected it first
- One horse breaking up a game of bitey face by rubbing her head on one of the gelding's hindquarters
- Gelding pooing on another gelding's poos
- Lots of casual touching of noses, or nose to headquarters or hocks, as one horse walked past the other to the water bucket

I don't know. Forget horse welfare, I think my welfare would suffer too if I didn't get to watch horses be horses.

 

[Bellaboo18]

It's talked about alot on the forum that horses have no concept of time, it's quality over quantity of life etc. in regards pts (which I agree with). So using that same attitude with the risk of herd turnout, I'd never pick individual turnout. Horses are herd animals and they can't move as a herd with fencing between them.

There's the odd individual that it doesn't suit but on large it's a small herd for me.

I will add it's far easier when you have more than one horse so you can manage it yourself.

 

[ycbm]

I get why people do it. I don't think the postage stamps are acceptable, the minimum size should be big enough for a safe canter. But group turnout in a livery stable with a turnover of liveries is a real danger even if they are introduced properly. And there always seems to be a bully who will bite or kick anything.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Mine is on individual turn out but his paddocks are quite a good size with a hedge line and tree shade. He was with my oldie and they were lovely together and I loved seeing them together. I was lucky that they became very good friends because it doesn’t always happen. However he used to absolutely lose the plot if I took my oldie away for a hack even when left in the stable and other horses around. I had to sedate him if I was taking him away in the horsebox when we did veteran showing. I lost my oldie last October and he’s since got used to being out alone. Sometimes he’s got horses immediately adjacent sometimes not. We make sure between us that no horse is left without being able to at least see another at any time.

I’ve still got my extra space and can’t decide whether to get something else due to time and expense. The separation anxiety was a pita but it was also useful to have two horses together as not then worried about one being left out alone.

I think keeping horses is always going to be a compromise in some way and one idealistic thing like group turn-out isn’t necessarily going to make a happy horse. I’ve seen plenty of unhappy horses in group turn-out because the mix of horses isn’t working, there is often inadequate space and not enough to eat. This results in bullying, fence-walking and nasty and sometimes fatal injuries.

 

[Upthecreek]

Large herd turnout should be for the very young or the retired in my opinion, but with the caveat that it must be on a sufficient acreage that the horses have plenty of grazing and loads of space so they can get away from each other. Pairs turnout can be problematic due to the potential for them to bond so closely that separating them is difficult.

There is no perfect solution and there are so many variables, that I don’t think we can generalise that individual turnout is bad and herd turnout is good. I moved mine when a horse was kicked to death by two others (large yard with herd turnout of 3 to 8 per herd where introductions were poorly managed). They are now in good sized individual paddocks with shelter and they groom and play over the fence and have a good old gallop around if something sets them all off. I definitely do not miss worrying about them being kicked or bitten or replacing trashed rugs all the time or having to get other people’s horses in and turn them out with mine. My boys are very settled and the change has not been detrimental to their wellbeing at all.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I guess that's easy to say when you've not stood next to your 6yr old who has a massive open fracture of his tibia and the rest of the herd are being dragged off indoors away from the scene to leave your poor horse who is in agony alone whilst you wait for your vet to end its life (not very professionally either I might add, as it was necessary to shoot him twice).

Nor when your told that it was a good job you'd insisted on an xray of another beloved horses leg after receiving a kick because the advice of the vet was to turn the horse the horse out "which could/would have turned into a catastrophic fracture".

So no, risk away for all your worth but don't berate others for not following your lead because some of us have had dreadful experiences.

You should know by now that ANY discussion always ends up in someone being berated…. Always the same

 

[SEL]

My Appy spent rather too much time on her own. Not because she was a danger to other horses, but because she was a danger to humans going into the field. It was the making of her the first winter I had her when she got chucked out with the polo ponies who were allowed to go feral off season. Predominantly a mare herd (plus my Ardennes and one other gelding) they told her in no uncertain terms that at 5 years old she was at the bottom of the pecking order. Big M might have been slow moving but he was near the top of the hierarchy.

Finding her place in the herd reduced her stress levels and made her generally nicer to be around.

I did have to look the other way when the mares told her off. Big M however was deferred to by the whole herd instantly. I was more worried about him because he couldn't move as quickly but they all just wandered over for a sniff.

It's awful that people have seen catastrophic injuries in group turnout. Have to say that's not been my experience in many countries over many years.

 

[paddy555]

I get why people do it. I don't think the postage stamps are acceptable, the minimum size should be big enough for a safe canter.

there are better ways of fencing. I have one on his own. Instead of fencing a square or rectangle I fenced a strip. So in a 2 acre field which is roughly rectangular 2/3 is fenced for the pair but a strip (about 30ft wide) goes down the full length of the long side and then round the end so the individual has an L shape. So when the pair canter so does he, flat out to the bottom and round the end. I had considered a U shape around the others but he gets tons of movement with just the L.
He travels a good distance like that each day always cantering backwards and forwards. That does his movement more good than a small square paddock and he gets to move with his mates. Very easy to do just different way to arrange the electric tape.

 

[Sossigpoker]

It's not extreme for my horse. She ties herself in knots if left alone and has done since she was a youngster. For her, she would not cope with individual turnout and at 17, I wouldn't expect her to.

Individual turn out doesn't have to and shouldn't mean a horse left on its own. All ours at our yard are individually turned out but can socialise over a fence

 

[scats]

My friend had the option of paired turnout at a yard, but for some reason she got it in her head that she wanted individual turnout, which she got.
Then she moved yards and her gelding is now in a small herd and she says he is the happiest he has ever been. She says she wishes now that she hadn’t kept him on his own because she didn’t realise the impact it was having on him. The reality is he had switched off a bit so although he seemed ‘fine’, albeit grumpy, it wasn’t until he was back with others that she realised he had this whole other personality that came out and he is genuinely a much happier and less grumpy horse.

My girls are both regularly left alone in their stables and are used to it. I sometimes wish I had a small herd of mares they could be with, as I don’t really like how bonded a pair can become.
There’s only 2 other geldings at our yard and we have to keep Polly the tart away from them both or she becomes rampant!

 

[Birker2020]

I'd like to know if the people who are anti individual paddocks and who are saying "I'd never let my horse be on individual turout" have ever actually faced this very issue as I suspect for the most part they have their own land and more than one horse.

But for those of us that don't have that type of set up we don't have a choice. There us nowhere near me for miles that I know if that does herd turnout, so what is a person to do in those circumstances?.

I've been at my yard for 18 years and my horses have thrived whilst there, in their individual turnout.

Each to their own I guess.

 

[stangs]

I'd like to know if the people who are anti individual paddocks and who are saying "I'd never let my horse be on individual turout" have ever actually faced this very issue as I suspect for the most part they have their own land and more than one horse.

But for those of us that don't have that type of set up we don't have a choice. There us nowhere near me for miles that I know if that does herd turnout, so what is a person to do in those circumstances?.

I've been at my yard for 18 years and my horses have thrived whilst there, in their individual turnout.

Each to their own I guess.

Horse is liveried over 2hr from me in order for him to live out 24/7 in company and on suitable grazing. He could be 40min from me if I didn't mind him being on individual turnout, in rye fields and with little turnout in the winter. The commute is the sacrifice I take to ensure his happiness.

If the only suitable yard in my vicinity was individual turnout, I wouldn't have bought a horse.

 

[whirlwind]

Friends, freedom, forage. However with the caveat that I’m very lucky to have my own land so lots of space and no real competition for resources and a stable herd that doesn’t change apart from horses coming out for a couple of hours to be ridden.

 

[Abacus]

I'd like to know if the people who are anti individual paddocks and who are saying "I'd never let my horse be on individual turout" have ever actually faced this very issue as I suspect for the most part they have their own land and more than one horse.

But for those of us that don't have that type of set up we don't have a choice. There us nowhere near me for miles that I know if that does herd turnout, so what is a person to do in those circumstances?.

I've been at my yard for 18 years and my horses have thrived whilst there, in their individual turnout.

Each to their own I guess.

I was one of the people that said this. I do have my own land now, but many years ago was on a yard only offering individual turnout. Three liveries, one acre split into 4, with one part resting at any time. Not big enough, and all three horses were stressy. When i moved to a yard with herd turnout my horse changed dramatically. My reasons for being so adamant about group turnout are based on this experience. And I simply wouldn’t have a horse if keeping one in a way that suited me caused the horse to be stressed. And that includes giving myself peace of mind re: risk and injury, at the expense of his / her welfare.