There's a land called Overfeeding...

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I feel your pain. Had to reduce amount of hay I feed my youngster as he is getting too fat.

To satifsy my need to feed I'm now looking for a balancer ๐Ÿ˜….
 
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Elno

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I have the perfect solution, you need a poor doer tb as well ๐Ÿ˜ƒ
Mmm yeah... It's an underestimated satisfaction in preparing food for a scrawny Tb ๐Ÿ˜Œ Then you're suddently dabbling with kgs and not grams ๐Ÿ˜

My Tb beastie ate at most ad lib haylage and 2 kgs alfalfa pellets and 1 kg of a low starch muesli ๐Ÿคฉ

Current fatty got 100 g of sugar beet with her minerals yesterday because Im a weak, weak owner ๐Ÿ˜’ The sugary kind... Miss Porky would never sink so low as to eating the unmolassed version.
 

Elno

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I feel your pain. Had to reduce amount of hay I feed my youngster as he is getting too fat.

To satifsy my need to feed I'm now looking for a balancer ๐Ÿ˜….
I'm not even sure we have balancers over here in that sense. We probably do of course from the imported brands. I know of course what it is and that it's feed packed with protein, vitamins and minerals but here our min/vits are in rather concentrated form and are fed as either pellets (a bit of alfalfa, wheat feed and molasses just to make it stick together) or powder. There's no fun in feeding it ๐Ÿ˜’ My fatty gets 80 grams, and I'm actually wondering if she is sensitive to the alfalfa in it, because she goes bonkers if I up the dosage even a tiny bit...
 

Goldenstar

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Itโ€™s really difficult I have three Irish Draughts and a ID / with a Clydesdale .
I have faced up to the fact that being fat is more harmful than being without forage part of the time .
I weigh their haylege and know they will spend part of the night with non .
I do lots of things to slow them down eating but in reality they spend part of the night with nothing .
I do relax it if they stay in all day but still leave them for periods without .
Hunting being stopped means I have lost the nice bit from Christmas to March when they are are at their slimmest and I donโ€™t have to worry so much .
You have be focused on the biggest risk factor for lameness is the horse being fat .
Exercise is vital but in winter that can be difficult to manage .
 

Elno

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Itโ€™s really difficult I have three Irish Draughts and a ID / with a Clydesdale .
I have faced up to the fact that being fat is more harmful than being without forage part of the time .
I weigh their haylege and know they will spend part of the night with non .
I do lots of things to slow them down eating but in reality they spend part of the night with nothing .
I do relax it if they stay in all day but still leave them for periods without .
Hunting being stopped means I have lost the nice bit from Christmas to March when they are are at their slimmest and I donโ€™t have to worry so much .
You have be focused on the biggest risk factor for lameness is the horse being fat .
Exercise is vital but in winter that can be difficult to manage .
I agree completely. Mine gets 6 kgs in a slow feeding haynet in the morning when outside which usually lasts her until 4-6 pm, and 4 kgs overnight in a double slow feeding haynet to slow her down even further. She still most likely stands without forage for several hours during the night, but I have to think what is best for her in the long run.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Aah, interesting! Didn't actually know we had a supplier in Sweden ๐Ÿ˜Š Unfortunatly a bit too far (7.5 hours by car according to Google) to travel just to pick up some chaff. Also looked at the ingredients and found them very similiar to a chaff (and with even less energy!) made by a different company, which I can pick up at my local horse feed supplier ๐Ÿ˜ Just a bit wary of the alfalfa in it, in case that was what was driving her crazy a couple of days back.

... Will maybe pick up a bag and try if my feeding itch get's too unbearable ๐Ÿ™ˆ๐Ÿ˜…


She truly doesn't need chaff! Although, if you must give her some, try to find plain straw chaff, rather than grass or alfalfa chaff.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Mmm yeah... It's an underestimated satisfaction in preparing food for a scrawny Tb ๐Ÿ˜Œ Then you're suddently dabbling with kgs and not grams ๐Ÿ˜

My Tb beastie ate at most ad lib haylage and 2 kgs alfalfa pellets and 1 kg of a low starch muesli ๐Ÿคฉ

Current fatty got 100 g of sugar beet with her minerals yesterday because Im a weak, weak owner ๐Ÿ˜’ The sugary kind... Miss Porky would never sink so low as to eating the unmolassed version.


I'm sorry to say that this is the action of a foolish owner. You are risking the health of your horse for no good reason at all. Do you really want her to develop laminitis and be in horrendous pain on box rest for months, at best? There are few threads on here about laminitis, can I suggest that you do a search and read some of them, to understand why you should not over-feed?
 

Elno

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I'm sorry to say that this is the action of a foolish owner. You are risking the health of your horse for no good reason at all. Do you really want her to develop laminitis and be in horrendous pain on box rest for months, at best? There are few threads on here about laminitis, can I suggest that you do a search and read some of them, to understand why you should not over-feed?
Uum... The sugar beet actually has less sugar in it per kg feed than her haylage does, and less energy than Kwikbeet/Speedibeet and it gives her a whooping 1.1 MJ extra. If it wasn't for the fact that she eats her mineral pellets as they are I would have been forced to hide them in something anyways.

But of course you have a very valid point, since she actually doesn't need the extra feed.

She was a 6.5, maybe even 7 body condition score, but now actually started losing weight being on her current diet so it would be sad to mess it up.
 
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Nicnac

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Aha - the solution is one good doer, an aged shitland and a TB. TB isn't a bad doer but that's because he's fed well and isn't greedy. He eats sparingly . Shitland is same - she'll leave hay when she's full (but if I gave her hard feed she'd wolf it down)

I can give TB a HUGE haynet knowing full well there will be loads left in the morning; shetty gets a small net but again it's not empty in the morning; give the fatty a small net when he comes in around 6pm and then another small one at 11pm - he thinks he's getting more than the others but I know better!!
 

Pearlsasinger

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Uum... The sugar beet actually has less sugar in it per kg feed than her haylage does, and less energy than Kwikbeet/Speedibeet and it gives her a whooping 1.1 MJ extra. If it wasn't for the fact that she eats her mineral pellets as they are I would have been forced to hide them in something anyways.

But of course you have a very valid point, since she actually doesn't need the extra feed.

She was a 6.5, maybe even 7 body condition score, but now actually started losing weight being on her current diet so it would be sad to mess it up.

Well I hope you are not giving her a kilo of dried weight sugar beet! From the horse's pov a kilo of haylage will last a lot longer than a similar weight of any hard feed, so the forage would be more satisfying for the horse. You are right, it would be sad to mess up all the good work at this stage.
 

Elno

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Well I hope you are not giving her a kilo of dried weight sugar beet! From the horse's pov a kilo of haylage will last a lot longer than a similar weight of any hard feed, so the forage would be more satisfying for the horse. You are right, it would be sad to mess up all the good work at this stage.
I didn't imply anywhere that she was fed with 1 kg sugar beet. That would have been really foolish and unnecessary. Rather, I clearly wrote she got 100 g of it, which amounts to 1.1 MJ extra to her total amount of calories consumed daily ๐Ÿ˜Š
 

Pearlsasinger

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I didn't imply anywhere that she was fed with 1 kg sugar beet. That would have been really foolish and unnecessary. Rather, I clearly wrote she got 100 g of it, which amounts to 1.1 MJ extra to her total amount of calories consumed daily ๐Ÿ˜Š
I realise that but you were comparing the amount of sugar in 1kg of each, my point was that it is better for the horse and she would probably prefer, to have the haylage
 

Elno

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I realise that but you were comparing the amount of sugar in 1kg of each, my point was that it is better for the horse and she would probably prefer, to have the haylage
I wholeheartadly agree with you. You should always choose to add extra forage instead of hard feed when given the option, assuming there is room for it energy wise and the horse doesn't lack in something like protein and for instance would benefit more from something with, say, more protein dense feed like alfalfa in equeal amount. In this case a token feed of 100 g sugar beet is less than 1 kg worth of extra haylage when it comes to energy, so unfortunatly she's stuck with only 10 kg forage.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I wholeheartadly agree with you. You should always choose to add extra forage instead of hard feed when given the option, assuming there is room for it energy wise and the horse doesn't lack in something like protein and for instance would benefit more from something with, say, more protein dense feed like alfalfa in equeal amount. In this case a token feed of 100 g sugar beet is less than 1 kg worth of extra haylage when it comes to energy, so unfortunatly she's stuck with only 10 kg forage.
Which brings us back to your OP, there you have your answer - feed nothing that she doesn't actually need!
 

LR

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I have this problem with my husband. He complained tonight that his jacket potato was too small and I said but your stomach is too big. He lost lots of weight just over a year ago but heโ€™s putting it back on. He just needs to exercise, he eats less than me, but I cannot get him to do any ๐Ÿ˜ก. โ€˜Death by teethโ€™ mu MIL calls it. I was chatting to a dog owner with an obese beagle. Itโ€™s only 8 but looks about 12. He said he only gets a scoop of so and so AM and PM. I said I didnโ€™t not mean to be rude but there was no way heโ€™s feeding his dog that amount of food. He stood there looking a bit thoughtful. I told him he must start being honest with himself as his dog is obese! He does still talk to me amazingly!!
 

Pearlsasinger

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So easy and yet... So hard! ๐Ÿ™ˆ

Try to think of it that not only are you doing the horse harm but you are also wasting your money - or turn it the other way round if that makes more sense to you. I'm sure that you don't really want to do your horse harm but that is what feeding her more than necessary is. Stay strong!
 

Elno

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Try to think of it that not only are you doing the horse harm but you are also wasting your money - or turn it the other way round if that makes more sense to you. I'm sure that you don't really want to do your horse harm but that is what feeding her more than necessary is. Stay strong!
I'm too generous of a person to ever feel like I'm wasting my money when it comes to my family, pets and horse unfortunatly ๐Ÿคท๐Ÿผโ€โ™€๏ธ

Maybe I'll just think of it like having to be "cruel to be kind" sorta way. (Over) feeding may feel like the kind and loving thing to do because it sure does feel good seeing her eat and be happy and full, but by it I can be in the long run harming her and shortening her life ๐Ÿ˜”
 
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Elno

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I have this problem with my husband. He complained tonight that his jacket potato was too small and I said but your stomach is too big. He lost lots of weight just over a year ago but heโ€™s putting it back on. He just needs to exercise, he eats less than me, but I cannot get him to do any ๐Ÿ˜ก. โ€˜Death by teethโ€™ mu MIL calls it. I was chatting to a dog owner with an obese beagle. Itโ€™s only 8 but looks about 12. He said he only gets a scoop of so and so AM and PM. I said I didnโ€™t not mean to be rude but there was no way heโ€™s feeding his dog that amount of food. He stood there looking a bit thoughtful. I told him he must start being honest with himself as his dog is obese! He does still talk to me amazingly!!
We are sometimes truly amazing at fooling ourselves. When we boarded at the old yard I had to put my horse's forage rations in four haybags (they were fed morning, lunch, dinner and night). I remember that I practically never stayed true to the actual amounts I told myself I was feeding her. It was very easy to "accidently" slip more haylage in than intended, so those 10 kgs you though you were feeding probably actually was close to 12 or 13 or even 14. I'm happy that I no longer have to weight up her haylage at the new yard as that is the yard owners job. And voila, horsey is losing the much needed weight she piled on ๐Ÿ˜Œ
 

CrimsonDivine

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You should try to keep in mind that obesity leads to serious illnesses and death. Try basing your thoughts on observation via body scoring and weight measuring and rest assured that your horses are fine. Overfeeding is why alot of horses become sick these days. In some situations also underfeeding but in this case I'm pretty sure you're risking overfeeding due to the way you are. Don't get me wrong, your good nature is not a bad thing but it can be bad for the horse so do try to think about what is in the best interest of your horse no matter how eager they are to get that extra bit of grain or treat. Sometimes ad lib hay is more than enough on it's own and if you ask me a cob shouldn't need anything else. My question to you really is; why do you feel a need to feed them hard feed and why is it that you bring them in at night? Ideally they should be out at night, better yet 24/7 unless they have medical reasons for not being able to but even then it is said that horses with medical issues would be better off turned out at night. If you think it's too cold at night consider rugging but bare in mind that over-rugging is a thing too so be mindful about that as well.
 

Elno

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You should try to keep in mind that obesity leads to serious illnesses and death. Try basing your thoughts on observation via body scoring and weight measuring and rest assured that your horses are fine. Overfeeding is why alot of horses become sick these days. In some situations also underfeeding but in this case I'm pretty sure you're risking overfeeding due to the way you are. Don't get me wrong, your good nature is not a bad thing but it can be bad for the horse so do try to think about what is in the best interest of your horse no matter how eager they are to get that extra bit of grain or treat. Sometimes ad lib hay is more than enough on it's own and if you ask me a cob shouldn't need anything else. My question to you really is; why do you feel a need to feed them hard feed and why is it that you bring them in at night? Ideally they should be out at night, better yet 24/7 unless they have medical reasons for not being able to but even then it is said that horses with medical issues would be better off turned out at night. If you think it's too cold at night consider rugging but bare in mind that over-rugging is a thing too so be mindful about that as well.
Well, the reason why she isnt out 24/7 is because the yard that we are boarding at doesn't have the means to facilitate that. The paddocks are too small and also to be able to have a horse out 24/7 in Sweden requires by law that the horses have a shelter to seek cover in if out more than 16 hours a day if the mean daily temperatures are lower than 5 degrees.
We do have places that have the 24/7 turn out option, but unfortunatly the nearest one that isn't full is about a 1.5 hour drive away. I would love to have her out 24/7, but it's not possible at the moment.
I don't overrug. We had - 20 the last couple of days and she's in a 200 g rug.
She's also not a cob- but she is more of a "cobby" type of horse, so probably a good, rather than poor doer.
I also would not be able to give her ad lib hay (unless she is out 24/7, unrugged, with a small hole bale net to slow her down) , she is like a black hole in that departement and when I had her on 14-16 kgs without any hard feed she looked like this. She had fat deposits and it was impossible to see, not to mention, feel a single rib.
 

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Pearlsasinger

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Well, the reason why she isnt out 24/7 is because the yard that we are boarding at doesn't have the means to facilitate that. The paddocks are too small and also to be able to have a horse out 24/7 in Sweden requires by law that the horses have a shelter to seek cover in if out more than 16 hours a day if the mean daily temperatures are lower than 5 degrees.
We do have places that have the 24/7 turn out option, but unfortunatly the nearest one that isn't full is about a 1.5 hour drive away. I would love to have her out 24/7, but it's not possible at the moment.
I don't overrug. We had - 20 the last couple of days and she's in a 200 g rug.
She's also not a cob- but she is more of a "cobby" type of horse, so probably a good, rather than poor doer.
I also would not be able to give her ad lib hay (unless she is out 24/7, unrugged, with a small hole bale net to slow her down) , she is like a black hole in that departement and when I had her on 14-16 kgs without any hard feed she looked like this. She had fat deposits and it was impossible to see, not to mention, feel a single rib.

She was certainly overweight in that photo, so well done for getting to grips with her weightloss. Congratulate yourself that you have recognised the problem and addressed it. She will live a longer, happier life for it.
 

Elno

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She was certainly overweight in that photo, so well done for getting to grips with her weightloss. Congratulate yourself that you have recognised the problem and addressed it. She will live a longer, happier life for it.
THANK YOU! ๐Ÿ˜Š I was a bit afraid that if I posted it people would comment on that she wasn't overweight at all, and then I wouldn't know what to do ๐Ÿ™ˆ๐Ÿ˜…
 

CrimsonDivine

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Well, the reason why she isnt out 24/7 is because the yard that we are boarding at doesn't have the means to facilitate that. The paddocks are too small and also to be able to have a horse out 24/7 in Sweden requires by law that the horses have a shelter to seek cover in if out more than 16 hours a day if the mean daily temperatures are lower than 5 degrees.
We do have places that have the 24/7 turn out option, but unfortunatly the nearest one that isn't full is about a 1.5 hour drive away. I would love to have her out 24/7, but it's not possible at the moment.
I don't overrug. We had - 20 the last couple of days and she's in a 200 g rug.
She's also not a cob- but she is more of a "cobby" type of horse, so probably a good, rather than poor doer.
I also would not be able to give her ad lib hay (unless she is out 24/7, unrugged, with a small hole bale net to slow her down) , she is like a black hole in that departement and when I had her on 14-16 kgs without any hard feed she looked like this. She had fat deposits and it was impossible to see, not to mention, feel a single rib.
Ok first of all I'm not a big fan of those liveries who dictate to owners if and when their horses are turned out. Horses are by nature outdoor animals and it is also considered cruel to lock them in. It can cause them stress and anxiety. I know in your case this can't be helped for reasons out of your control right now but that is my two cense on that subject. Maybe these other places might be worth considering. Some people will travel for the sake of their horses. Heck I moved to be closer to mine so I didn't have to travel so that they could be out 24/7. However, since we're not really discussing that at this moment in time I don't feel it is even up for a debate so I'll leave my thoughts on that there and say no more about it.

As for rug? I don't think she needs 200 g rug all the time, she doesn't look like the kind of horse that needs warmth on a constant basis. Only consider light weight if it's raining, medium if it's snowing. Do not cover if there is no bad weather and there is shelter as you mentioned? She honestly does not need it all the time. Let nature take it's course on a horse such as this. It is within her best interest.

As for ad lib hay? If she's kept in it is your responsability to provide her with as much hay as possible since she is kept in and thus limited on forage and if it is not possible for you to supply it when needed then maybe see if you can come to some sort of arrangement with people at your livery to do so? You should not keep a horse in for several hours without free choice hay. You say she is like a black hole? This could be due to lack of feed source for several hours at certain times of the day if you are not feeding her on a more constant basis. Horses, like most craetures, will gauge if they're not recieving the proper intake of food. They generally do not overeat if fed properly. This does not mean that you should give her large meals however. Little and often is best. Personally I'd advise not using hard feed but if it is required only small meals such as 300-500g per serving. Horses have small stumaches, around the size of a rugby ball. Despite their abiltiy to gauge they will not digest food properly through heavy eating and this can make them sick and also waste your feed due to possible diarrhea reaction. You are on the right track with haynets and net covered bales with small holes as this, as you said, will slow down her eating so she cannot gauge but she must have ad lib available to her on a more constant basis. Even if it means putting hay out 2-3 times a day it is required. So do this wherever possible, even if you can't put it out in her field do so in her stall.
If you feed her like this I can assure you she wouldn't need any hard feed, or very little of it depending on her nutrition intake. It is possible she might need some sort of supplement. I'd advise considering mineral blocks and plenty of water.

Either way I can certainly say she looks great in the photo. Nice glocey coat and good formation in her body. You should be proud of that at least :)
 
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Elno

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Ok first of all I'm not a big fan of those liveries who dictate to owners if and when their horses are turned out. Horses are by nature outdoor animals and it is also considered cruel to lock them in. It can cause them stress and anxiety. I know in your case this can't be helped for reasons out of your control right now but that is my two cense on that subject. Maybe these other places might be worth considering. Some people will travel for the sake of their horses. Heck I moved to be closer to mine so I didn't have to travel so that they could be out 24/7. However, since we're not really discussing that at this moment in time I don't feel it is even up for a debate so I'll leave my thoughts on that there and say no more about it.

As for rug? I don't think she needs 200 g rug all the time, she doesn't look like the kind of horse that needs warmth on a constant basis. Only consider light weight if it's raining, medium if it's snowing. Do not cover if there is no bad weather and there is shelter as you mentioned? She honestly does not need it all the time. Let nature take it's course on a horse such as this. It is within her best interest.

As for ad lib hay? If she's kept in it is your responsability to provide her with as much hay as possible since she is kept in and thus limited on forage and if it is not possible for you to supply it when needed then maybe see if you can come to some sort of arrangement with people at your livery to do so? You should not keep a horse in for several hours without free choice hay. You say she is like a black hole? This could be due to lack of feed source for several hours at certain times of the day if you are not feeding her on a more constant basis. Horses, like most craetures, will gauge if they're not recieving the proper intake of food. They generally do not overeat if fed properly. This does not mean that you should give her large meals however. Little and often is best. Personally I'd advise not using hard feed but if it is required only small meals such as 300-500g per serving. Horses have small stumaches, around the size of a rugby ball. Despite their abiltiy to gauge they will not digest food properly through heavy eating and this can make them sick and also waste your feed due to possible diarrhea reaction. You are on the right track with haynets and net covered bales with small holes as this, as you said, will slow down her eating so she cannot gauge but she must have ad lib available to her on a more constant basis. Even if it means putting hay out 2-3 times a day it is required. So do this wherever possible, even if you can't put it out in her field do so in her stall.
If you feed her like this I can assure you she wouldn't need any hard feed, or very little of it depending on her nutrition intake. It is possible she might need some sort of supplement. I'd advise considering mineral blocks and plenty of water.

Either way I can certainly say she looks great in the photo. Nice glocey coat and good formation in her body. You should be proud of that at least :)
I kind of get the feeling that you read my posts really fast and miss like half of the information in them but still feel the need to lecture me on how to keep a horse? I'm not a newbie horse owner. I haven't asked for advice about feeding, rugging or keeping a horse and further more - your advice about ad lib hay and a mineral block would send my horse into laminitis in a couple of years, if not months time, and at best give her severe mineral deficiencies and obesity over time.
 

Goldenstar

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There are many horses who you cannot give ad-lib forage to even in winter sadly I have four of them.
I admit I got sucked into the whole all day unlimited forage all the time thing but itโ€™s dangerous for many many horse ,what matters is having the correct body score .
Over the last twenty years our eyes have been accustomed to seeing too fat horses and thinking itโ€™s normal .
It is normal but itโ€™s wrong and itโ€™s caused no end of soundness issues and is making vets shed loads of money .
Laminitis is most visible of the health problems but arthritis PSD kissing spines soft tissue injuries in the lower limbs and feet can all be driven by horses being fat .
I have been going through mountains of photos from my parents house they start in the mid sixties boy was I shocked when I saw the ponies and Hunters but they where the correct weight for work .
We work and train too fat horses and thatโ€™s one of the reasons we have so much lameness .
 

PapaverFollis

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Just popped back out to the horses 45 minutes after feeding them. Half Beast's early evening hay gone already. So 2kg in 45 mins after being on the field, head down, all day so not completely deprived. She's so violent with haynets that she breaks them in days so that's just eating hay off the floor. She gets last hay at 10pm, another 4kg. So she'll be done by midnight. With a net it'd maybe be 1am. Adlib she can eat 15kg in a night easily. I know, I've tried. That's over 2% of her body weight just overnight. Not happening as much as I like her to be happy. Even soaked, that amount of hay would be an awful lot.

I completely understand where OP is coming from about how hard it is, psychologically, to limit them. I know how bad the weight is for them and to be fair to myself here none of them have ever been complete puddings on my watch. But they do such a good job of convincing me that they are starved! ๐Ÿ™ˆ

I console myself by giving 3 big scoops of Topchop Zero and bedding on nice clean oat and barley straw so I know she has forage to nibble. Just not hay.

But I have got a 632 on the weight tape this evening from 673 in November.... and they have, out of necessity, been getting hard feed throughout. Keep at it OP.
 

Elno

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There are many horses who you cannot give ad-lib forage to even in winter sadly I have four of them.
I admit I got sucked into the whole all day unlimited forage all the time thing but itโ€™s dangerous for many many horse ,what matters is having the correct body score .
Over the last twenty years our eyes have been accustomed to seeing too fat horses and thinking itโ€™s normal .
It is normal but itโ€™s wrong and itโ€™s caused no end of soundness issues and is making vets shed loads of money .
Laminitis is most visible of the health problems but arthritis PSD kissing spines soft tissue injuries in the lower limbs and feet can all be driven by horses being fat .
I have been going through mountains of photos from my parents house they start in the mid sixties boy was I shocked when I saw the ponies and Hunters but they where the correct weight for work .
We work and train too fat horses and thatโ€™s one of the reasons we have so much lameness .
Just for the fun of it, I quickly counted what ad lib forage would provide for my horse (I have a hay analysis, like stated before). My fatty can EASILY eat around 17-20 kilos of haylage if allowed. 20 kilos would provide her with :

125.1 MJ
731.4 g protein
70.5 g Ca
26.5 g P
19.6 g Mg
209 g K
1123 mg Fe
65.3 mg Cu
1697. 8 mg Mn
613.8 mg Zn

And basically none Ko, Se and I.
According to her weight, type and work she needs around 50-60 MJ and around 300-320 g protein.

Ad lib means literally as much as you can aquire/as much as you wish, and translated to horse feed it means of course so much forage that they never, ever run out. Some horses I have literally seen FALL ASLEEP in their bale of hay, before stop eating. It's an utopia of course, but rarely feasible in real life, unless unrugged, out 24/7 in a really, really big pasture and in hard work. I have had a TB (poor doer like most of them) turned a bona fide fatty on ad lib hay in his pasture. Imagine what it would do to a good doer...
 
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