Elno
Well-Known Member
I clocked my horse once at eating 4 kilos haylage stuffed in a small holed net in under 2.5 hours ??
That's why she now has a double small holed net during the night. You simply cannot win.
There's a land called Overfeeding...
- Thread starter Elno
- Start date
I clocked my horse once at eating 4 kilos haylage stuffed in a small holed net in under 2.5 hours ??
That's why she now has a double small holed net during the night. You simply cannot win.
CrimsonDivine
Well-Known Member
First of all why post about your horse stating that you feel you are "overfeeding" and from what I read I'm assuming it was done out of pitty for her. So yes, clearly you was seaking advice else you wouldn't have posted about your issues and concerns. I hadn't assumed you were a "newbie" but ya want to know something? for all the years I've spoken to people who think they know it all and have had horses longer than I've been out of diapers? in reality they really don't know that much and makes me laugh really when they seak out advice and get defencive when in reality it's them that is the real problem. Mostly from their lack of understanding, lack of knowledge and ignorance and sometimes arrogance.
I don't know where you get the idea that mineral blocks and hay can cause issues with laminitis but sure.. ok, if you say so. No point arguing since your mind is clearly made up. I was only trying to help and I was being sincere when I said your horse looks good either way. So you can put your claws away and simmer down a bit. I meant no offense but if you're going to get funny with me just for being told what I think is best for your horse, and no I'm no newbie either I'll have you know, then I honestly don't see a point in any of this at all.
For the record; it is due to ignorance regarding horses needs vs what people think that causes these illnesses in the first place, Horses have survived for thousands of years without us and no doubt never had such problems otherwise they probably wouldn't have. Infact illneses such as laminitis have become more common as of late and propper grazing is becoming more scarce due to mankind expanding their towns and taking away what little greenland we have left. Anyway, I digress but point being it does make a person wonder "how come alot of horses are sick?" well the apple hasn't fallen too far from the tree to work that one out.
Good luck with your horse. I do hope I won't see other threads by you stating your horse is not well as I do not wish to have to say "I told you so" to yet another horse owner who won't listen to reason. Prevention is the biggest cure as they say and you're going about it the wrong way.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
Causes of lamnitis are excess weight mostly caused by standing at large bales of hay not moving and stuffing their faces or turned onto rich unsuitable grass. Obesity is the scurge of modern horses who are overfed and under exercised from a very early age. Small individual pens add to the problem as the horses do not have the space or incentive to move. A lot of endocrine problems are caused by obesity which then long term cause metabolic issues. Overfeeding is even more cruel than underfeeding but found to be more acceptable. The epidemic of dangerously fat, unfit. behaviourally unstable horses stems from cosseting, over feeding, which often leads to fear of riding so even less exercise. You should always be able to feel the last rib and in finer coated breeds see it on turning. I know from experience it is really hard with good doers and it is easy just to say its a cob or a traditionally fat native. Showing has a huge amount to answer for as blobby, lumps of lard have been winning in the top shows for years
CrimsonDivine
Well-Known Member
Obesity and boredom as well as depression and stress, which can trigger hormones and lead to other illnesses, can also be caused by being constantly locked up without food. Horses graze 80% of the day, unless we take them away from it. Who are we to deprive them of their natural habitat and instinct only to lock them up because we think we know what's best? There isn't even any evidence or claims regarding laminitis that backs up these statements regarding hayy except lami prone shouldn't be on it 24/7.No where in this thread has the OP actually stated their horse had lami, merely that they wish to avoid it where possible. This in itself does not account for their actions. Not to mention that hay is thee lowest in fat or sugar even compared to grass itself. If exercise is a concern then spread the hay around more. We do have feeders for horses which can hold any amount we choose depending on the size of it. It's only lazy and ignorant owners who have themselves to blame if they choose not to. Also being out in pasture means they can run around thus loose weight. Same applies for any living creature even us and we know that. If you keep dogs locked in and only a yard to play on and poop in it's still considered unfair to them. Why is this not unfair to a horse? Two wrongs never make right and taking them from what is natural to them doesn't justify anything.
Last edited:
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Many many horses simply can’t maintain a healthy weight turned out with 24/7 forage unless they are being worked .
In fact with some I would say even if they are worked .
The truth is that the forage and grass in the modern world is more often than rocket fuel when compared to what horses ate in times past .
In nature the horses metabolism was severely challenged every winter not some thing you never hear the preachy 24/7 seven forage people address .
Every winter horses would have faced want , it should come as no surprise why there’s a explosion of horses with EMS many have lived their lives without their metabolism ever being kicked into top gear .
Kept warm all their lives provided with forage they can stand and eat they mature with everything stacked against them .
My horses are really hungry when they come in from a day in the field at this time of year last night two where a bit cold you have to be firm with yourself and say that’s good they can’t work atm ( because of ice ) but their metabolisms will have .
In fact with some I would say even if they are worked .
The truth is that the forage and grass in the modern world is more often than rocket fuel when compared to what horses ate in times past .
In nature the horses metabolism was severely challenged every winter not some thing you never hear the preachy 24/7 seven forage people address .
Every winter horses would have faced want , it should come as no surprise why there’s a explosion of horses with EMS many have lived their lives without their metabolism ever being kicked into top gear .
Kept warm all their lives provided with forage they can stand and eat they mature with everything stacked against them .
My horses are really hungry when they come in from a day in the field at this time of year last night two where a bit cold you have to be firm with yourself and say that’s good they can’t work atm ( because of ice ) but their metabolisms will have .
Last edited:
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
The key for several of mine has been to find something that they don't much like eating, but will if their stomach is empty. Maybe I've been lucky, but plain straw had done it each time.
Ulcers are less likely to be fatal than laminitis, but I wouldn't want a horse to have either.
Ain't that the truth!
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
I think straw might be key for mine too... although they seem to enjoy eating it almost as much as their hay I can at least hope that there are fewer calories in it.... And rooting through there beds for the tasty bits of straw keeps them busy (finding their ? in the resultant keeps me busy too!). But there's plenty people who issue dire warning against feeding straw because of colic risk. There's also dire warning against small holed haynets. Against grazing muzzles. Agaibat soaking hay. Etc etc etc.
Basically if you have a fatty, you can hardly do right for doing wrong according to the Internet. For every weight control measure you might implement there's 10 people telling you it's wrong to do that for another reason.
Basically if you have a fatty, you can hardly do right for doing wrong according to the Internet. For every weight control measure you might implement there's 10 people telling you it's wrong to do that for another reason.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Straw is fine it’s great help if the horse readily eats it however it’s not protective against ulcers if the horses leaves it .
Fatty will have to be choosing ( in his mind ) between death and straw I use it in summer to know when I am driving his diet to hard because that’s always the clue he starts to eat straw .
Managing fat horses is a hard work I would much rather have a poor doer .
Fatty will have to be choosing ( in his mind ) between death and straw I use it in summer to know when I am driving his diet to hard because that’s always the clue he starts to eat straw .
Managing fat horses is a hard work I would much rather have a poor doer .
SheriffTruman
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I meant by balancer: concentrated pellets of vitamins and minerals. My young one only needs some 150 grs so I agree: there's no fun in feeding that! Although he really likes the pellets so it is a bit of a treat. (I had to try several brands because he is picky, he is happy with Vitalbix now).
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I gave my obese Draft horse (I bought her that way) straw to supplement her hay ration and she did get colic. I swapped her to plain oat straw chaff and had her teeth rasped, (they were in need). I didn't soak her hay and fed it from the ground/haybar. I wouldn't risk feeding a horse from a haynet with either small or large holes, that's an accident waiting to happen, imo. The Draft horse was way off the scale on a weight tape when she arrived and down to 690 eventually although I'm sure that she weighed more than that really, she was built like an over-sized Shetland.
SheriffTruman
Well-Known Member
Two horsemen, three opinions (or how goes that saying?) As a new horse owner, it drives me crazy. Am slowly seeking my way through the vast, and tricky Swamps of Opinion.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
That's what I mean. For every weight control measure there's an associated problem that someone has genuinely had. It's not that these issues are made up it's that there's no right answer. So for each horse and each yard and each season there's a different optimum. It can take some messing to find. And it's tiring and hard and there is such huge temptation to give up and just chuck hay at them!
Nothing to do with being lazy and ignorant as implied by a previous poster... more like confused and exhausted!
Nothing to do with being lazy and ignorant as implied by a previous poster... more like confused and exhausted!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It may drive you crazy but it’s the way it is .
Looking after horses well is an exercise in considering completing objectives .
Horses are very easy to look after in text books but every yard is different and every horse so it’s a question of learning lots and feeling your way to a system that works for your situation .
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
A horse constantly locked up without food , what silly emotive language no one has suggested doing that .
Elno
Well-Known Member
It is not natural for horses to have access to hay or haylage 24/7.
It IS on the other hand natural for horse to seek out their forage 16-18 hours per day, and it IS natural for them to basically nearly starve during winter and feast in the summer. Besides, the forage the horse in the wild consumes is no where near when it comes to calories or protein or even sugar that your ordinary hay of medium quality has today.
If you want to talk about natural behavior of a horse it is not having access to good quality hay 24/7.
You argue that grass has more sugar than hay. Yes grass usually has more sugar in it per dry weight. Grass also has roughly 85% water, mening the other 15 per cent is dry weight. Compared to for instance my haylage which has a dry weight of 65.1% and a sugar content of 119.5 g sugar/kg dry weight it means that 1 kg grass (which can have up to 15 % dry weight sugar which equals 150 g sugar/kg dry substance) would actually amount to LESS sugar than 1 kg of my haylage (22 g sugar vs 77 g sugar!). There is a limit of how much forage a horse can consume, and horses usually manage to consume more grass than hay/haylage. Even if my horse would consume 40 kgs of grass each day, and only say 20 kg haylage (her real limit is around 16-18 kgs), she still would consume more sugar eating my haylage than sugar.
Maybe now you can understand how your advice to feed ad lib hay/haylage would make a horse develop laminitis?
And, about mineral blocks :
Horses have no conception of which minerals they are lacking, aside from maybe salt. They also have smooth tongues which means that you cannot even be sure they manage to consume enough salt needed from a salt block, let alone the right amount of the added minerals.
... Which brings us to why I said your advice about mineral blocks would result in mineral imbalance and deficiency in my horse.
So no, I don't think that you gave me sound advice at all. And I'm not lazy or ignorant by any means and it's actually really shitty of you to imply that.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
No and neither am I, try turning a fat horse out on rough grazing no feed no rugs in October until April with no hay, no straw and no feed and you will see the fat melt off it but most people cannot do that, cannot bear to see hat rack horses with every bone showing and nor should they. Horses need to lose as much weight as is possible within reason. Hay is the biggest killer of horses because as Elno says it is far higher in nutrients than grass per kilo and is often presented in a manner that encourages the horse not to move and in winter when horses are designed to get every calorie out of their food. I hate stables but as most livery yard insist on using them and most horses are conditioned to going in them a lot of people have no choice but to overfeed their horses but perhaps if they understood that their horses need as low calorie fibre as possible it might not be such a disaster
Elno
Well-Known Member
Aaaaaand on a happier note here is a freshly taken photo from earlier today of the little starlet herself ? Tape measured to around 480 kgs (vs around 510- 525 kg a while ago in the photo before). Can actually feel (but not see) her ribs now.
Tryyyyyying my darn hardest not to panic and shovel some food in her by the buckets, because the horse now looks almost exactly like she did in spring before turned away on pasture and then overfed some more by me in the autumn/early winter ???
The yard owner and I came to the conclusion that she has managed to shift some well needed fat and that we probably will not want her to lose so much more. Now to only stick to it and not accidently ruin everything by upping her feed now that she actually looks pretty decent. ? I probably will have to give her a little bit more feed though when the weather is better and she starts working again-obviously taking very great care not to go over board and overestimate her work load. Ponyo is, on a side note, preeeeetty fresh having basically been a ornament for a couple of months ?
Tryyyyyying my darn hardest not to panic and shovel some food in her by the buckets, because the horse now looks almost exactly like she did in spring before turned away on pasture and then overfed some more by me in the autumn/early winter ???
The yard owner and I came to the conclusion that she has managed to shift some well needed fat and that we probably will not want her to lose so much more. Now to only stick to it and not accidently ruin everything by upping her feed now that she actually looks pretty decent. ? I probably will have to give her a little bit more feed though when the weather is better and she starts working again-obviously taking very great care not to go over board and overestimate her work load. Ponyo is, on a side note, preeeeetty fresh having basically been a ornament for a couple of months ?
Attachments
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
She looks great, Elno! Well done you.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Yes she does look better, although it is difficult to tell from that photo how much weight she has lost, we can see her last rib because she is turned away. When you re-introduce work, remember the old adage 'feed for the work *done*, not that you are hoping to do. Unless you increase the work a lot, she probably won't need any more food.
Elno
Well-Known Member
No she will be in light work AT MOST I would think. You're probably right in that she will probably not need any extra though... Again my overfeeding tendensies showing their ugly head at half a chance given ??
Here's another photo where its pretty easy to guess that she must have some draft-breed in her. In her case its north swedish draft horse, and even further back even Ardennes and Belgian draft. And a hell lot of ponies ?
Attachments
windand rain
Well-Known Member
She looks perfect now and as said work is upped weeks before upping food
ITPersonnage
Well-Known Member
Aaaw she's a poppet 
Elno
Well-Known Member
Aaaw she's a poppet
She's the Apple of my eye, and also the reason I probably have more grey hairs than I should at my age ?
Oh the joys of owning a young horse ?
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Look at the size of that head! Her head does look very reminiscent of the Westphalian Kaltblut's head, is her muzzle square? I have had much taller horses than the Kaltblut but never one with a bigger head.
CrimsonDivine
Well-Known Member
That's actually an interesting point, something I may need to ponder over. However this does not change my view regarding depriving of food and locking horses in stalls for several hours a day. As I said before two wrongs do not make a right.
I was not necessarily accusing you of being ignorant and lazy but as they say if the cap fits.. As for the attitude? I feel that yours is most certainly as bad. Infact I consider it worse since fact is that you came here stating that you feel that you are overfeeding your horse, or finding it hard not to, and I gave you sound advice in which you obviously did not agree to and thus felt a need to get defensive with me. Frankly I fail to see how you overfeed when you clearly don't want her having the basic essentials. But as I said; you're going about it the wrong way.
Also must I state to watch your use of words as well as your tone?! Not exactly setting a good impression for yourself swearing like that. Then again mum always used to say "swearing is for idiots who can't think of anything better to say". I guess she was right.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
?
CrimsonDivine
Well-Known Member
Oh do grow up and stop soliciting bad behaviour with your own.
Ya know it's people like this who come to people like myself and want to be wrapped in pretty rainbow ribbon and given a pat on the back and told they're doing a great job when fact is they're not and I refuse to be an enabler for these kind of people thus I do not condone their actions and will say so. I grow tired of dealing with idiots with horses who clearly don't wish to listen to reason and simply act childish and rude when told when they are wrong. At least I can be the bigger person and admit when they make some interesting points but it changes very little in the bigger scheme of things.
Elno, can I ask how long have you actually had this horse? Not sure if you said?
windand rain
Well-Known Member
Sorry Crimsondevine I have never read such garbage about feeding fat horses in my life the natural way is to leave out unrugged, unfed and unexercised apart from walking about it is as far from natural for horses to stand at a bag or bale of hay than it is to stable them so get off your high horse and learn from what you have been advised. Horses get fat eating hay they are designed to lose weight in Winter and forage for natural keep is grass, scrub, trees and bark.
Laminitis and obesity are the scurge of horse health anything that gets that weight off in winter is to be congratulated. Horses re also designed to slow metabolism so the scrub they do get keeps them alive if that isnt used it makes them fatter and more at risk. Research any of that and come back with peer reviews to support your premis or deny mine.I feel very sorry for fat horses with owners that stuff them full of hay.
Laminitis and obesity are the scurge of horse health anything that gets that weight off in winter is to be congratulated. Horses re also designed to slow metabolism so the scrub they do get keeps them alive if that isnt used it makes them fatter and more at risk. Research any of that and come back with peer reviews to support your premis or deny mine.I feel very sorry for fat horses with owners that stuff them full of hay.
CrimsonDivine
Well-Known Member
I never said they should stand around hanging over hay bales and I even respect your view on that. However, when it comes to talking garbage you do a fair bit of that yourself. How about educating yourself a bit more before ranting off at me? Fact is these selfish ideals are not within the best interest of the horse and making bogus claims Vs actual evident facts is just utter ludicrous. Horses need to graze constant, FACT. Horses need to be outdoors, FACT. Horses become ill when locked inside and deprived, FACT. Another fact is it's not their fault they are stuck on poor pastures and robbed of their freedom. That is ours and it is also fact that it is our responsibility to remedy that WITHOUT causing further issues otherwise that is to be considered ill keeping, unfair and down right cruel.
So unbelievably ignorant and to think I respected you. You made a good point but you fail to understand the correct way to resolve the matter.
I feel sorry more for those horses suffering from stress and anxiety due to poor treatment by selfish and ignorant people. And I see alot more of that around than any other issue in the horse world.
Also if hay was such a problem then WHY pray tell does every god damn vet or nutritionist insist on ad lib hay UNLESS they have an underlining problem that prohibits them from doing so? Or are you going to tell me some conspiracy BS that they want you to put your horse at risk? Oh and here's a funny thing; hay is made up of grass, which is what they naturally eat. But you want to take all of that away from them and make their lives even more misserable, for shame!
So ok, let's assume that hay does play a part in horses health issues. Are you then to tell me that you agree with keeping them in and depriving them is the answer? How many times must I say it?! TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT. How do you justify this when it only makes matters worse?? And you say I talk garbage? Nay, I simply act on the best interest of the horse and refuse to accept that this load of croc is what is best for them.
So unbelievably ignorant and to think I respected you. You made a good point but you fail to understand the correct way to resolve the matter.
I feel sorry more for those horses suffering from stress and anxiety due to poor treatment by selfish and ignorant people. And I see alot more of that around than any other issue in the horse world.
Also if hay was such a problem then WHY pray tell does every god damn vet or nutritionist insist on ad lib hay UNLESS they have an underlining problem that prohibits them from doing so? Or are you going to tell me some conspiracy BS that they want you to put your horse at risk? Oh and here's a funny thing; hay is made up of grass, which is what they naturally eat. But you want to take all of that away from them and make their lives even more misserable, for shame!
So ok, let's assume that hay does play a part in horses health issues. Are you then to tell me that you agree with keeping them in and depriving them is the answer? How many times must I say it?! TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT. How do you justify this when it only makes matters worse?? And you say I talk garbage? Nay, I simply act on the best interest of the horse and refuse to accept that this load of croc is what is best for them.
Last edited:
Elno
Well-Known Member
Seriously....? You have thus far implied that I'm both lazy, ignorant and now also an idiot. The only one with a bad attitude, tone, and insults has actually been you.
You are really rude, polemic and insulting to not only me, but others in the thread. Please stop.
Last edited: