Those of you who give Cartrophen...

milliepops

milliepops

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posting in here for traffic ;)

if you give your horse cartrophen without having had a lameness issue or diagnosis, i.e. as a preventative/maintenance...
and if you are insured

How have you opened the conversation with your insurers? Had a chat with vets today and we have agreed it's a good time to start but not sure how to approach insurance! I'm obviously expecting to pay for the treatment but don't want to end up in a position where they think something is wrong! Vet is prepared to speak with them if need be. Just thought I'd see if anyone has any experience of this?
 
Well the idea was that I'd be paying so no claim form 😕 We've decided to leave it for now anyway 😂 but thanks :)
 
If I was going to give cartrophen as a preventative, I think I would expect the insurer to reject any further lameness claims on the joints on the basis the medication would not have been started without some inkling that the horse was beginning to have problems.

I've never heard of preventative cartrophen before, what's making you want to do it MP?
 
Other people with horses at high levels have mentioned giving it as a maintenance measure.
Horse in question is 100% sound but work stepping up a level again this year, being realistic about the demands placed on her and looking at ways to help keep her in tip top condition for as long as possible. Simple as that really :)
 
You need to make sure that the discusion about cartrophen is not going to be recorded on her vet notes... If it is, you may as well go and inject her, and be prepared for difficulties at renewal time.

I've known of older horses who've had a routine but negative ACTH test for Cushing's as part of the annual MOT being subsequently refused cover for anything to do with Cushing's or laminitis, etc. One of the many reasons why I now self insure.
 
It would be unethical for the vet not to record the prescription of a drug for the horse, TP. I'm guessing also illegal, since cartrophen is a prescription only drug.


milliepops said:
Other people with horses at high levels have mentioned giving it as a maintenance measure.
Horse in question is 100% sound but work stepping up a level again this year, being realistic about the demands placed on her and looking at ways to help keep her in tip top condition for as long as possible. Simple as that really :)
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If you were to ask your insurance company about this, I suspect their answer would be:

'you are expecting that increased difficulty of work will cause issues for the horse, which is why you have given it preventative medication. We will no longer therefore cover any risks relating to any issues with bones or joints.'

The fact that you may well stave off a claim isn't relevant to an insurer, it's all about removing risk. I think they will also assume that the horse is actually a tiny bit stiff/lame and that you have either only noticed it subconsciously or aren't telling the truth, because neither are uncommon.

I feel a welcome to the world of the uninsured coming on. With three horses, if you are insuring them all, you should be a lot better off.
 
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I would expect doing this will cause the insurer to exclude lameness .
It’s a shame because I have great results with it.
Another reason I thank the gods I don’t insure.
 
As she's been increased in the class of use covered on the policy I feel confident that the insurers already know that the level of work has increased.
They aren't all insured, no, (I have 4 in total ;) )
But thanks anyway... As i said the vet decided against it anyway so it's quite unimportant now after all :) and should they wish to speak with my vet she will be happy to report that there is no suspicion nor hint of lameness ... long may it continue. 🤞
 
ycbm said:
It would be unethical for the vet not to record the prescription of a drug for the horse, TP. I'm guessing also illegal, since cartrophen is a prescription only drug.
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Oh yes, but MP has only discussed using it and has decided against it. That conversation should have been recorded on her vet notes though, and would be sufficient to alarm many insurers. Nuts, of course, but it's what happens.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Oh yes, but MP has only discussed using it and has decided against it. That conversation should have been recorded on her vet notes though, and would be sufficient to alarm many insurers. Nuts, of course, but it's what happens.
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Completely nuts and what drives me bonkers about insurance. Horse insurance penalises you for taking preventative measures in performance horses , quite likely reducing the likelihood of a claim. It also prevents you treating something with Dr Green for fear you will run out of time to claim later if it doesn’t work.

I was pleasantly surprised with Petplan recently. I got a policy with my kitten and handily forgot to cancel it at renewal. At annual vacc time vet informed me said cat had a heart murmur, nothing dramatic but noticeable. I could do nothing, heart scan or do a blood test for cardiac markers and treat depending on the results of the latter 2 as required.
Personally I would do nothing if uninsured, but figured I may as well scan given I’m paying premiums. I called up PP - I’m on a 12 month rather than life policy, they advised they were happy to authorise doing nothing - and to give me my full 12 months cover at any date in the future if it needed veterinary intervention.
Now that is sensible insurance .... why the hell can horse insurance not follow that?
 
You might want to try boswellia MP. I had great results with cartrophen on M (& his joints are shot to pieces) but he was a nightmare to inject so I didn't continue with it. Since I've been religiously putting 2 scoops of boswellia in his feed I've been able to reduce the bute and he's actually being a bit of a thug to handle - which is a sign he's feeling well and needs to do a bit more!!

IHW - I wish my insurers would follow petplans approach with your cat. I'm fully expecting to have 99% of my horse uninsurable at her next renewal even without claiming off them. Its pushing me to go down the steroid route purely because I need to be able to claim for it before renewal rather than see if rest and rehab works.
 
popsdosh said:
Surely ,or am I missing something it would be illegal to compete using it.
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Cartrophen is FEI legal, so no problem using it in competition horses.

It is deemed to be of assistance to joint health, but with no direct analgesic (pain-killing) effect, although it does seem to have some ant-inflammatory action.
 
SEL said:
You might want to try boswellia MP. I had great results with cartrophen on M (& his joints are shot to pieces) but he was a nightmare to inject so I didn't continue with it. Since I've been religiously putting 2 scoops of boswellia in his feed I've been able to reduce the bute and he's actually being a bit of a thug to handle - which is a sign he's feeling well and needs to do a bit more!!
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Thanks for the suggestion... however she's usually a bit thuggish so don't think I want to encourage that , lol! Isn't that something more to have up your sleeve as signs of wear become apparent or do people also use it as a preventative? I thought it was processed by the liver so probably better not given until needed but happy to be corrected if that's not the case.
 
rara007 said:
Just leave the paperwork to the vets? :p Just sign the form and get the vets to fill it out?
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milliepops said:
posting in here for traffic ;)

if you give your horse cartrophen without having had a lameness issue or diagnosis, i.e. as a preventative/maintenance...
and if you are insured

How have you opened the conversation with your insurers? Had a chat with vets today and we have agreed it's a good time to start but not sure how to approach insurance! I'm obviously expecting to pay for the treatment but don't want to end up in a position where they think something is wrong! Vet is prepared to speak with them if need be. Just thought I'd see if anyone has any experience of this?
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My dog is given Cartophen for elbow arthritis, my vet, who has horses, tells me its not effective for horses, seems to have helped the dog though.
 
This is such a thought provoking thread. I have always given my horses something to try to help support their joints in a preventative way, not because they have a pre-existing condition. It's always been non prescription and I don't insure (just suck up the costs when they occur). I do find the attitude towards some prescription only drugs quite odd. Why should an insurer penalise an owner who, with their own money, tries to protect their horse against arthritis by using cartrophen?Potentially it is saving the insurer money. We protect our horses with invasive vaccinations against flu and tet. A horse that is diagnosed with PPID can compete if it is not given prascend but can't if it is. I don't think that prascend enhances performance in any way but it does make the horse feel normal and helps to prevent it developing laminitis etc. We don't stop a rider with diabetes competing if they have insulin. It just seems muddled thinking.
 
Milliepops.....it could be worth posting your question on an American forum; they are a lot more keen to medicate as a preventative / enhancement than over here. Not sure what the insurance situation is across the pond though.....do people routinely insure there? Don't know.
 
oldie48 said:
T. Why should an insurer penalise an owner who, with their own money, tries to protect their horse against arthritis by using cartrophen?.
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Because they can't tell the difference between genuine prevention as in MPs case, an owner who knows full well that they are asking a horse which isn't built for the job to do too much (this would have been me if I hadn't sold my cob last year), an owner whose subconscious has picked up the beginning of a problem and prodding them to do something about it and someone who knows full well that their horse is stiff and needs help but isn't going to say so because it will invalidate the insurance for later treatment of the issue.

The first is in the Insurance company's interests(as long as befits outweigh side effects), the other three aren't, and they're probably far more common.
 
A vet administering said treatment would be able to assess whether the horse showed clinical signs of a pre existing issue though.
One might think that if a thorough assessment was on file showing nothing suspect or concerning then it would be clear which category it fell into 😐
I've always had to get the vet's input before making a claim.. they don't just take the owners word for it so same principle could apply
 
One of my horses had his hocks injected last April as he had early signs of arthritis on x-ray although he looked sound. To help him I feed him Boswellia but recently ran out and there has been a marked difference in the way he feels although again he looks sound so I have got some more on order. He is working PSG.
 
ycbm said:
Because they can't tell the difference between genuine prevention as in MPs case, an owner who knows full well that they are asking a horse which isn't built for the job to do too much (this would have been me if I hadn't sold my cob last year)
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Umm, no it wouldnt. MPs pony is out competing successfully with no signs of an issue as GP. I'm pretty sure if MP was asking too much the pony would be struggling, instead she is absolutely flying through the grades. Theres a difference between not built for the job and struggling with the job. Catrophen isnt going to help with the latter.
 
tuppy said:
My dog is given Cartophen for elbow arthritis, my vet, who has horses, tells me its not effective for horses, seems to have helped the dog though.
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It definitely works on some horses. I had a great success with it with my ancient pony who has arthritis.
 
ycbm said:
Because they can't tell the difference between genuine prevention as in MPs case, an owner who knows full well that they are asking a horse which isn't built for the job to do too much (this would have been me if I hadn't sold my cob last year)
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Leo Walker said:
Umm, no it wouldnt.
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Excuse me? Are you saying that you know better than me, my trainers and my physio what the likely future of my horse, who you have never met, would have been if I had continued up the grades with him? Or have I misunderstood your point here?


MPs pony is out competing successfully with no signs of an issue as GP. I'm pretty sure if MP was asking too much the pony would be struggling, instead she is absolutely flying through the grades. Theres a difference between not built for the job and struggling with the job. Catrophen isnt going to help with the latter.
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I made it absolutely clear that MPs cob is not having any problems. My cob is built nothing like MP's. If MP gives cartrophen it will be purely preventative. If I gave it, it would have been in the full knowledge that my cob was likely to have hock problems if I carried on increasing the difficulty of the work I was asking him to do.


The problem is that an insurer can't tell the difference between MP and the 'alternative universe' me who made a horse do more than it was capable of. And because of that they will probably always err in their own favour and assume that an owner who gives preventative cartrophen knew trouble was brewing, and exclude lameness claims in future.
 
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Its open to interpretation of FEI and racing rules. Just because it does not show on the prohibited list does not mean its legal to compete using it. It is all in the intent of using it.
Taken from the FEI prohited substance regs.
Please be aware, if a substance has the same chemical structure or biological effect as a substance on the List, it is also prohibited just as if it were on the List.

Cartrophen is a NSAI as is BUTE so beware
 
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[QUOTE="popsdosh

Cartrophen is a NSAI as is BUTE so beware[/QUOTE]

You may be thinking of Carprofen which IS an NSAID.

Cartrophen is Pentosan polysulphate which is NOT an NSAID, and does not appear on the prohibited list under either name.
 
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Cartrophen is Pentosan polysulphate which is NOT an NSAID, and does not appear on the prohibited list under either name.
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Well it's not a steroid and the makers say that it's a strong anti-inflammatory. So although it's not technically in the class of drugs called NSAIDs, it is a non steroidal anti-inflammatory drug.

It should, on that basis, be illegal for competition and if it isn't, it's a mystery why not.
 
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