thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

[*hic*]

I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint. Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod. The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass. There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then. They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.

From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't. Diets all round are the same. Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps. Works from the TB to the Native ponies. I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?). No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that. They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc. I don't get the hype tbh. The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them. It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!

Exactly!!!

I do think that those of us with plenty of years of experience gained before professional marketing became so influential can't understand why simple feeding and not using shoes unless the horse/pony needs them is such a revelation to some people.
I cannot understand either why any-one would be prepared to pay more to a 'barefoot trimmer' than to a well-qualified farrier to look after their horse's feet.
But then I can't understand why some people continue to employ the farriers who leave their horses' hooves in the messes I can often see local to me and apparently can't see the problems. Although I do know that for some of them cost is a factor. I could become evangelical myself about the fact that paying a good farrier a few pounds more works out cheaper than having to get the vet out after prolonged poor farriery.
Just for the record, when I bought my Draft horse, just over 18 months ago, I was told that the farrier said she wouldn't cope without shoes. She was vastly overweight and being fed a proprietary brand coarse mix. We took off her back shoes to introduce her to our herd and changed her onto our usual high fibre/low sugar feed. She worked with just fronts until recently when we took those off as well. The farrier thinks she will be fine but of course we have the option to call him back to replace the shoes if we feel she needs them. So far she doesn't. Of the others one is unshod and the other is shod all round.
None of this is rocket science imo but sheer common-sense and good horsemanship.
IMO far too many people buy horses without knowing enough about how they should be kept to keep them healthy and happy and without some-one with enough experience to help them - as demonstrated by many posts on this forum. Just because you can afford to buy a horse doesn't mean you should.

Agree with both of these and especially the last paragraph. I think that what a forum like this shows is that there are well-read, gregarious and voluble types who are prepared to research something they feel strongly about and then spread the message loud. Then there are a huge number of people who jump onto the bandwagon and follow them whilst having not understood the basics of horsecare, let alone any refinements whether that be feeding, bitting, rugging, use of a particular item of tack or lunging equipment, trainer and of course the current shod/barefoot issue. These people try to follow blindly but have actually not understood the basics and need their hands held, but are now at the mercy of other new converts who may or may not be at the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" stage at which point the horse suffers through it's owner's best intentions

Commonsense, or horse sense, seems to be in short supply. Some of us oldies still maintain our ponies in the way they were maintained when we were children nearly half a century ago in my case, ie they lived out, had shelter not rugs, were fed only forage and were trimmed and left unshod. We tend to be the ones who don't have ponies with unmanageable behavioural issues or weight issues and laminitis, and whose ponies are rarely ever lame - just like when we were children.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Arizahn, that's lovely can't see it happening though.

 

[YorksG]

Strasser is a vet.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country.

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with "well cared for".

There may not be problems with trimmer training, but there is nothing which states that a trimmer has to be trained, hence my view that protected title is needed.

The horses were ferral, and not all the laminitis was thought to be sugar related, but some were concussion related, with little or no grass, so not quite the same. I absolutely agree about wild not being synonymous with well cared for, as many captive animals have far greater life expectancy than their wild counterparts. I have little or no issue with whether horses have shoes or not , are classed as barefoot or not, but do have an issue with the manner in which the subject is discussed by some people, mind you often these are the posters who also follow other rather evangelical methods of horse care and training and it probably speaks more to their issues than having any actual basis in good horse management

 

[Goldenstar]

Wow, that'd hurt!!
Mine are £65 every 6 weeks .. £55 for refits and I too am North

Yes five horses it was eye watering but now one and one in full work BF and two dipping their toes in to see how we go.and the fifth went to horse heaven nothing to do with his feet a hasten to add.i
It's a little cheaper if you get more than one done at the same time as you pay the travel charge once.

 

[cptrayes]

There may not be problems with trimmer training, but there is nothing which states that a trimmer has to be trained, hence my view that protected title is needed.

I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF, we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!

 

[quirky]

I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF, we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!

Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?

 

[POLLDARK]

I've been here (on this forum) a very long time. That doesn't make me special, or my opinion especially valuable, but it does mean that I have seen some trends and changes over the years.

The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer. I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable
I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)
However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...
wouldn't you?

Well the New Forest started with barefoot last autumn as he only gets road work twice a week, around 6 miles in all, & has always had well balanced, strong feet. He is coping really well, NO special diet, NO special care, he is self trimming because his gait is even so the wear is even. It has made no difference except to my pocket. I have been amazed as I had read about all the extra care & feed they need but not so with him. So not POOR horse at all. Slightly poorer farrier maybe.

 

[Goldenstar]

I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF, we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!

This would be a good solution but I fear all they're interested in is revenues .
They think BF is a fad it will go away personally I think they are wrong.

 

[cptrayes]

Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?

Who would, and why?

It is people whose horses are shod or trimmed by farriers (however ill trained to trim barefoot working horses*) on this forum who are concerned about the trimming, not the people having it done by unregistered trimmers.

The trimming organisations won't want it, it would shut them down.

The farriers don't want it, they can see their revenues for shoeing going through the floor.

I don't need it, I trim my own.

You seem quite disturbed by "the barefoot movement". How about you give it a go?




* it is not covered in the farriery syllabus. An apprentice will only see hardworking horses with no shoes on if the master who he trains with has some on his books. This needs correcting.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?

After the fiasco of the farrier who damaged a horse's hooves, and the vet who was banned for only a year after completely going against all ethos and BHA rules, I can't think these professional associations are anything other than protectionist.
I have found a farrier [by accident] who is happy with me being barefoot, and is also happy to show me how he trims, he is quite interested in my barefoot diet, which is something he has not had any training in, my boy always had good feet, so there is no "before" and "after" scenario.

 

[Megibo]

not read all of the replies..but my thoughts on the matter are:

If it needs shoeing, put shoes on it. If it doesn't, leave it unshod...

both my girls are shod infront and shoeless behind. However when they move back to our private yard soon I will have them completely shoeless. My smaller mare was shoeless for 2 years and fine.

 

[Goldenstar]

The trimming organisations ought to have got their acts together gone to DEFRA I think DEFRA would have been the right place and arranged to base their training around NVQ's .
This would have been a good way forward I don't know why it has not happened that's what they need to do to counter these unlicensed arguments .

 

[laura_nash]

Wow! I went away for a day and look how much has been posted!

I do find the comments about barefoot being a money making thing quite funny. Even including my mail-order minerals and expensive boots, I still think barefoot is about the same cost - after all I was paying for the shoes! Of course I stayed with my farrier for trimming and I know trimmers often charge more, in part because the farrier is already on the yard shoeing so doesn't need to charge for his travel.

If it needs shoeing, put shoes on it. If it doesn't, leave it unshod...

This is the attitude that is common and I find a little annoying. I'm an acknowledged "barefooter" lifestyle choice person. My horse wasn't close to being PTS or anything, nor was he a horse that clearly didn't need shoes. I took him barefoot primarily because I prefer the experience of riding barefoot. Its totally a selfish decision, and yes it means he has to wear a muzzle and have less grass etc to make it work and I spend 10 mins putting his boots on before I ride if he's a bit footy in spring / autumn.

But then if I had decided to show him like some of my fellow riders do he'd need to be washed all the time, and have his tail in a bag, and be stabled before a show etc.

People don't say "if it needs a dressage saddle, buy one. If it doesn't, get a GP". What it needs is some way of making its back comfortable when you ride - how you do that is up to you so long as you don't get a manky old saddle with a broken tree and cripple the poor creature.

After all is said and done I bought him and go through the expense etc of having a horse so I can have my preferences when it comes to horse-care and riding, otherwise I could have carried on borrowing a friends horse when I wanted to ride. If I choose to try to keep my horse barefoot through a special diet and some lifestyle changes, and use boots rather than metal shoes when problems occur, that is my choice.

 

[Amaranta]

Strasser is a vet. Relevant only to people who think every word a vet says is indisputable gospel.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country, based on two successful prosecutions.

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with "well cared for".


I share your concern with the lack of regulation and recently posted a thread proposing that no-one should be able to charge to trim without a licence. I would still like to see that happen, under the auspices of the Farriers Registration Council with proper training of non-shoeing trimmers. Training which is currently sadly lacking from the shoeing apprentices syllabus, and should in my opinion be corrected immediately.

Wow! I went away for a day and look how much has been posted!

I do find the comments about barefoot being a money making thing quite funny. Even including my mail-order minerals and expensive boots, I still think barefoot is about the same cost - after all I was paying for the shoes! Of course I stayed with my farrier for trimming and I know trimmers often charge more, in part because the farrier is already on the yard shoeing so doesn't need to charge for his travel.



This is the attitude that is common and I find a little annoying. I'm an acknowledged "barefooter" lifestyle choice person. My horse wasn't close to being PTS or anything, nor was he a horse that clearly didn't need shoes. I took him barefoot primarily because I prefer the experience of riding barefoot. Its totally a selfish decision, and yes it means he has to wear a muzzle and have less grass etc to make it work and I spend 10 mins putting his boots on before I ride if he's a bit footy in spring / autumn.

But then if I had decided to show him like some of my fellow riders do he'd need to be washed all the time, and have his tail in a bag, and be stabled before a show etc.

People don't say "if it needs a dressage saddle, buy one. If it doesn't, get a GP". What it needs is some way of making its back comfortable when you ride - how you do that is up to you so long as you don't get a manky old saddle with a broken tree and cripple the poor creature.

After all is said and done I bought him and go through the expense etc of having a horse so I can have my preferences when it comes to horse-care and riding, otherwise I could have carried on borrowing a friends horse when I wanted to ride. If I choose to try to keep my horse barefoot through a special diet and some lifestyle changes, and use boots rather than metal shoes when problems occur, that is my choice.

Just as it is the choice of those who shoe their horses to keep them shod. To be honest, I am a little puzzled as to why you would find the 'if it needs shoes, shoe it, if it does not, then don't' take on things annoying. You ask for freedom of choice and then seem to be trying to deny others the same right to make a choice

I am not against the BF movement, although I agree with the previous poster who said that some on here have done it no favours, but I do find it a major concern that it is currently unregulated, until that is sorted out then I am afraid people will always question it. As far as I can see there are no proper published and peer reviewed studies, although I am happy to be corrected on this.

 

[rhino]

I hope you feel better for it. It certainly didn't help the discussion any, so it would be about the only benefit your effort achieved

Again, the sarcasm really doesn't help. If people want to post on the topic, they can and will. Just because you didn't feel the post relevant doesn't mean the same for everyone. It's silly throwaway comments like this that make people feel that any views which don't mirror the BT aren't welcome on the forum, which leads to the 2 'camps' which seem to have been created. I thought you were someone who valued discussion?

On phone now so can't quote, but I was being defensive. Not inflammatory.

Defensive. Inflammatory. Rude. All of the above IMO. It's been pointed out to you on threads before yet you seem completely unable to comprehend the terminology in your own posts

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Commonsense, or horse sense, seems to be in short supply. Some of us oldies still maintain our ponies in the way they were maintained when we were children nearly half a century ago in my case, ie they lived out, had shelter not rugs, were fed only forage and were trimmed and left unshod. We tend to be the ones who don't have ponies with unmanageable behavioural issues or weight issues and laminitis, and whose ponies are rarely ever lame - just like when we were children.

Quite so!

What I really don't get is the 'barefoot lifestyle choice' business. Ours (a mixture as described before) live out 24/7 in Summer, in overnight through Winter to save the land and their legs. If she needs one, the oldie wears a rug in bad weather, they can all wear one in atrocious weather, although we use keeping warm as a means of natural weight control.
Depending on their individual needs, particularly based on weight which is monitored weekly, they get straw chaff/dried grass chaff/soaked grassnuts/Speedibeet/linseed oil/cider vinegar/ aloe vera juice/Brewers' yeast. they all have Himalayan mineral lick available which one spends ages licking, one spends some time licking and the other barely touches.
They come in once a day in Summer to chaff and a look over, unless we are riding.
How does this necessitate me making a life-style choice? Unless of course I choose not to have horses at all - very unlikely.
There is nothing mystical about keeping horses as naturally as possible, whilst maintaining a good relationship with the farrier, and expecting them to behave well.

 

[tallyho!]

So rhino, its ok for other people to be rude but not me?

 

[thatsmygirl]

When I took my lad barefoot it didn't work first time round and this was because his diet was wrong. Since working on this he's coping fine ( tb by the way)
I would rather pay my £40 to my trimmer who goes through so much with me instead off quite trim/hack frogs off and pay please
maybe if more horses are feed suitable diets, shoes could be cut back more.
These bagged feeds have a lot to answer to I feel

 

[rhino]

So rhino, its ok for other people to be rude but not me?

No, but do you honestly think that your replies are not completely over the top and verging on hysterical?

Going back to quirky's post (#229), do you really feel your replies are warranted?

As others have mentioned, it's not the barefoot thing that is irritating, it is the attitude of certain posters on the subject. I have a lot of respect for those that are passionate about the subject and willing to take the time to give information, but it's getting more and more difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion on the subject as it tends to be hijacked by overly emotional posts, and posters.

 

[Arizahn]

Just a thought:

With the price of metal rising, and the economy as it is, do you suppose shoes may become something that is seen as a luxury? Will hoof boots eventually become the normal practice?

Sorry, just wondering

HUGS FOR EVERYONE EVEN THOUGH I CURRENTLY STILL SMELL LIKE SOAKING WET COLLIE

Mwah-ha-ha

 

[TwoStroke]

Lol, you seen the price of hoofboots lately? Extortion!

On another note... Has this post not become a tad absurd, now?

 

[tallyho!]

No, but do you honestly think that your replies are not completely over the top and verging on hysterical?

Going back to quirky's post (#229), do you really feel your replies are warranted?

As others have mentioned, it's not the barefoot thing that is irritating, it is the attitude of certain posters on the subject. I have a lot of respect for those that are passionate about the subject and willing to take the time to give information, but it's getting more and more difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion on the subject as it tends to be hijacked by overly emotional posts, and posters.

Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth. I don't walk around sugarcoating everything like some feel they have to.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.

 

[Arizahn]

Lol, you seen the price of hoofboots lately? Extortion!

On another note... Has this post not become a tad absurd, now?

Please don't remind me! Prices are scary indeed... But can you imagine if metal were to become too costly to use for shoeing? That would be a nightmare - the hoof boots would probably get even more expensive!

Is there a smiley for poster has fainted at the thought of hoof boots going up in price?

 

[rhino]

Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.

What 'rules'? Nobody has told you not to continue posting, but there is nothing rude about saying that someone's posts come across badly in their opinion. I don't feel you make the points you are trying to make because of the attitude behind them. Fair enough, you don't seem able to understand how people are offended by your posting, and I don't think that is likely to change.

Twostroke - absolutely The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does

 

[cptrayes]

The trimming organisations ought to have got their acts together gone to DEFRA I think DEFRA would have been the right place and arranged to base their training around NVQ's .
This would have been a good way forward I don't know why it has not happened that's what they need to do to counter these unlicensed arguments .

The trimming organisation have a full set of National Occupational Standards in place but no-one will step forward to police it because it will cost money. It cannot of course be done by any of the organisations themselves. They negotiated these NOS standards alongside the farriers. They have done their best. They are the good guys. They are providing training. It is not up to them to police people who are perfectly legally trimming with no training.

 

[Ibblebibble]

I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF, we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!

I've often wondered why the FRC/WCF don't see that barefoot isn't going to go away, they're not happy about barefoot trimmers/podiatrists but seem to prefer to stick their heads in the sand rather than step up and include barefoot trimming under their umbrella. if they got it right and made enough noise to get the laws changed so that only qualified trimmers could trim for money then i don't think they would lose money in the long term. it would certainly give the general horse owner peace of mind to know that a trimmer was properly qualified rather than just having watched a dvd and got their anglegrinder out ( not saying all trimmers are like that obviously )

 

[tallyho!]

What 'rules'? Nobody has told you not to continue posting, but there is nothing rude about saying that someone's posts come across badly in their opinion. I don't feel you make the points you are trying to make because of the attitude behind them. Fair enough, you don't seem able to understand how people are offended by your posting, and I don't think that is likely to change.

That is exactly what I have done and I get told I'm hysterical but it's ok for you to do it? I am offended by posts too you know.

Ok, maybe my attitude doesn't help but I am sick of the name-calling on both sides and have tried to express that the people who work their horses unshod are not trying to belittle anyone... which is what quirky insinuated to begin with.

However, I love to argue incessantly about inane things like whether or not I am hysterical, so please, keep entertaining me.

 

[quirky]

Who would, and why?

You seem quite disturbed by "the barefoot movement". How about you give it a go?

I don't know who would approach them and why, it was something you mentioned and I wondered if anything had been done by anybody. It wasn't meant to be snarky .

I am not disturbed in the least about "the barefoot movement". I have seen first hand how a woman had 3 weeks training, set herself up with a swanky website and calls herself professional.

I left Uni and a 4 yr (sandwich course) in engineering. I knew all there was to know about it . Only years of facing different conundrums day in day out made me the decent engineer I ended up.

As said previously, I had my horse unshod before barefoot had been adopted and proselytised. No fancy feeding, no fancy grazing ideas, just old fashioned horse management and a great farrier or two (moved to different part of the country) on the way

 

[Arizahn]

Twostroke - absolutely The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does

Oh dear - when the corporations take all our metal away to build colonies on alien infested worlds, you will really be in trouble!

Sorry, in a daft moodHope you find some that your horse isn't allergic to!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth. I don't walk around sugarcoating everything like some feel they have to.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.

I'm a tad confused. As far as I'm aware I've never made personal remarks about anyone.
My comments are general observations directed at the excesses of the barefoot movement as opposed to having unshod horses trimmed by a farrier.