thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

[cptrayes]

Aargh nutrition winds me up! Why then have I agreed to take up a sponsored place on a nutrition PGD? Madness..

Well the psychologists do say that people gravitate towards careers that they have some kind of problem with

What worries me about it is that there is one course, by Dr Kellon, available online at a price, which is being used as the absolute bible of horse nutrition. I think we share concerns that we may not know as much as we think we do!

 

[sonicgold]

Just come to this thread, and been around horses quite a while, have one shod and one BF. Why the mix? because it suits them. Apart from this bally weather I have, thus far had no hassles. They both get a good varied diet which has not changed to accommodate BF, and as for this, that and the next thing I use my common sense and listen to my horse.
Sorry if I come across as cynical but imo horses are what they eat and were designed to be foragers ranging across old grass, therefore why do most livery yard owners insist on high nitrogen fertilizers which give a quick chemical sugar rich green up but no substance. If you need to fertilize why not use seaweed? A good forage rich diet, balancer for vits and mins, and plenty of turn out on old grass and surely you have half the problems solved.
If a horse is uncomfortable ridden then use boots. I wouldn't take my shoes off and immediately expect to walk miles on soft bare feet. I fasten my hoof boots to my breastplate when we don't need them. Oh and I commit the "cardinal sin", a good trim from an excellent farrier.
Sorry about the soapbox but I get so cross about any "fashion" and how folks jump on the bandwagon regardless of thought or common sense. Talking of which, did anybody see the recent article on Horse mag on BF?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I'd be interested in seeing pics of her feet now, if you have any, Leviathan?

My youngster's feet looked like this when I got him. They resolved pretty easily, though, so I guess it's horses for courses. Now they look like this:

Will post some after the farriers been she is a week overdue. As we are changing farriers

 

[rhino]

Well the psychologists do say that people gravitate towards careers that they have some kind of problem with

What worries me about it is that there is one course, by Dr Kellon, available online at a price, which is being used as the absolute bible of horse nutrition. I think we share concerns that we may not know as much as we think we do!

NRC Plus! Almost wholly based on the NRC 2007 guidelines

As you say, it's a bought 'qualification'

This is a no pressure learning situation. There is no “mandatory attendance” at any time, no grades. The review questions are for your use only. I assume that anyone taking the course is doing so because they want to learn more about equine nutrition. You can read when it is convenient for you to do so. However, if you wish to receive credit for this course an exam will be given towards the end of the course. You will need a 70% to pass. You may take the test more than once.

Note the 'exam' is online so nothing to stop anyone having access to all the course materials, or getting others to help.

As a basic horseowner's course I think it is better than nothing, but am I correct in thinking that this is the only nutritional background required of UKNHCP trainees?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Good feeding is good feeding whether you shoe your horse or not. But people only ask questions about it when they have a problem, and because of the way horses are made, those problems always show in the feet. Just read the threads and ignore the stuff about having no shoes on, it's irrelevant.

Actually it is not true that feeding problems always show in the feet. I used to have a WelshDxTB mare who had terrible digestion problems. We eventually realised that she could not tolerate ANY cereal/molasses (yes we too had fed some commercial feeds), caused, we think by being 'fed up' by a previous owner who found her neglected. Her feet were brilliant all her life, with or without shoes. Her myriad problems were definitely NOT in her feet!

 

[TwoStroke]

Actually it is not true that feeding problems always show in the feet. I used to have a WelshDxTB mare who had terrible digestion problems. We eventually realised that she could not tolerate ANY cereal/molasses (yes we too had fed some commercial feeds), caused, we think by being 'fed up' by a previous owner who found her neglected. Her feet were brilliant all her life, with or without shoes. Her myriad problems were definitely NOT in her feet!

Really? No ripples, flare or separation at all? That's fascinating. Don't suppose you have any pics? *geek alert*

 

[sonicgold]

Just seen CP Trays thread about nutrition. Yes some spring and autumn grass can cause all sorts of problems, but is it the grass per se or the way it is managed? If you have to change from bare "summer fields", to winter fields which have rich grass a foot high and do it overnight surely trouble is waiting to happen? [We wouldn't dream of changing bucket feeds overnight.] Add to that the in at night in the winter therefore bucket feeds and haylage, and I can see why so many problems occur. The reverse happens in the spring, out off mud onto rested fertilized ground 24/7 and the potential for the L word is waiting for you.
I know that is very simplistic, and I know I am very lucky to keep mine where I do.

 

[hoofguy]

Fanatical, evangelical barefootiness etc etc. its such a turn off.

Working unshod horses is not new, but the money making spin is.

Obsessing doesn't make a good owner, neither does blaming a farrier for ruining your horse. Learning to recognise a well balanced and well shod horse is pretty essential for a horse owner.

Horse care is the same for shod and unshod horses. Appropriate diet, fresh air and exercise. No money in that approach though.

I agree.. not many horse went to war unshod either.. at least a farrier can drop by when you think you may have an abcess brewing and sort it all, part of the service.. knowledge is power. unshod is fine... farriers usually do straight talking whereas some clients want gushing compliments.. tricky balance when you are against the clock and 40 miles from the nxt client..

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Really? No ripples, flare or separation at all? That's fascinating. Don't suppose you have any pics? *geek alert*

No absolutely nothing.

We do have photos of her - we had her for 20 years but we don't have any specifically of her feet, I don't think. And tbh, as I'm one of those posters who has been talking about the way we used to keep horses, you won't be surprised to find that even if we do I probably can't put them on here. We certainly won't have any saved to a computer, she died in 2005 aged 24. We did once have to ask the farrier to come back after she'd been shod, her feet seemed to be particularly sensitive on that occasion. He could find nothing specially wrong. We decided that her 'tickly feet' went with her sensitive skin. This was quite a while before we realised that her many problems were caused by her digestive system.

 

[BeesKnees]

I agree.. not many horse went to war unshod either...

That may be true hoofguy but you surely cannot be equating the need to shoe war horses with a need to shoe the modern leisure horse who on average may get a couple of hours work a day, and many not even that?!

Whatever war horses needs were, they are completely irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[LucyPriory]

That may be true hoofguy but you surely cannot be equating the need to shoe war horses with a need to shoe the modern leisure horse who on average may get a couple of hours work a day, and many not even that?!

Whatever war horses needs were, they are completely irrelevant in this discussion.

No but Houston (and Austen) police horses go to war/work on the city streets 6 days a week 8 hours a day. Only booted for initial rehab and riots

 

[Herpesas]

My horse dictates he remains shod. He is on a high fibre, low sugar and starch diet with vits and mineral supplement, has daily turnout (he dislikes being out 24/7, 365days) on a good mix of grass types, he's exercised 5 days a week.

A few years ago, for mainly financial reasons, I removed his back shoes. He's got quite good back feet, strong with lots of straight growth. Acknowledging there would be a transition period, I reduced his hacking and roadwork to 1 hour a week and, after 6 weeks, his feet were BARE and farrier advised shoes would need to go back on (I'll point out at this stage that farrier can see benefits to both barefoot trimming and shoeing; and practises both). Also, when Hoss had an abcess last year, he wore through 2 rubber/canvas poultice boots in 3 weeks on boxrest - he is hard on his feet!

Hoss's front feet are too small for his frame with heels prone to being narrow and toes prone to flaring; he's also slightly pidgeon toed. In wet weather his feet go as soft as Brie. Farrier has advised against taking his front shoes off due to these issues and I follow his advice. He is shod all round in Natural Balance shoes with two toe clips, every 5 weeks.

In all other respects my management of him is considered and sympathetic. He has loads of hay even when turned out, is ridden on all terrains and enjoys an active and varied life (when a shoulder injury isn't bothering him). He receives attention from a qualified back lady fortnightly, the saddler every 3 months and is the happiest I have seen him.

I would not consider going barefoot with him at this time and yes I am at ease with 'nailing lumps of metal to his feet'. If he had an injury/illness where removing his shoes may save him or improve his condition then of course I would reconsider our position.

I have kept other horses unshod/barefoot successfully and don't have a problem with doing so if the horse takes to it or has never been shod - as others have pointed out, it's also often (but not always) cheaper. I also have a friend who has recently sent her horse to Rockley and is one of their many success stories.

I can see merits for both styles of management and will apply what I (as the owner) feel is best for the horse I have at the time. It may be wrong, it may not be as successful as another method but I can only do what I feel is the best option at the time after much consideration.

I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept! No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.

 

[sonicgold]

My horse dictates he remains shod. He is on a high fibre, low sugar and starch diet with vits and mineral supplement, has daily turnout (he dislikes being out 24/7, 365days) on a good mix of grass types, he's exercised 5 days a week.

A few years ago, for mainly financial reasons, I removed his back shoes. He's got quite good back feet, strong with lots of straight growth. Acknowledging there would be a transition period, I reduced his hacking and roadwork to 1 hour a week and, after 6 weeks, his feet were BARE and farrier advised shoes would need to go back on (I'll point out at this stage that farrier can see benefits to both barefoot trimming and shoeing; and practises both). Also, when Hoss had an abcess last year, he wore through 2 rubber/canvas poultice boots in 3 weeks on boxrest - he is hard on his feet!

Hoss's front feet are too small for his frame with heels prone to being narrow and toes prone to flaring; he's also slightly pidgeon toed. In wet weather his feet go as soft as Brie. Farrier has advised against taking his front shoes off due to these issues and I follow his advice. He is shod all round in Natural Balance shoes with two toe clips, every 5 weeks.

In all other respects my management of him is considered and sympathetic. He has loads of hay even when turned out, is ridden on all terrains and enjoys an active and varied life (when a shoulder injury isn't bothering him). He receives attention from a qualified back lady fortnightly, the saddler every 3 months and is the happiest I have seen him.

I would not consider going barefoot with him at this time and yes I am at ease with 'nailing lumps of metal to his feet'. If he had an injury/illness where removing his shoes may save him or improve his condition then of course I would reconsider our position.

I have kept other horses unshod/barefoot successfully and don't have a problem with doing so if the horse takes to it or has never been shod - as others have pointed out, it's also often (but not always) cheaper. I also have a friend who has recently sent her horse to Rockley and is one of their many success stories.

I can see merits for both styles of management and will apply what I (as the owner) feel is best for the horse I have at the time. It may be wrong, it may not be as successful as another method but I can only do what I feel is the best option at the time after much consideration.

I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept! No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.

Quite.

 

[Amaranta]

Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that. We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!

Now see magnesium inhibits the uptake of calcium, I do get very concerned when I see people recommending it willy nilly without any real idea of what it does.

 

[cptrayes]

Does it? That is not the information I have been given from other sources. Can you point me to where you found that out?


Hundreds of barefooters have been feeding large quantities of magnesium for more than 5 years now. Surely we'd be seeing something in our horses if this were true?

Interestingly, human type II diabetics are now also treated with it.

 

[cptrayes]

I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept! No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.

Where was that? Not on HHO surely?

 

[ester]

CP afaik calcium and magnesium are absorbed at the same sites in the intestine and therefore could theoretically be competing. . hence it is not advised to take calcium and mag supplements together..

It isn't something I have looked into much but would suggest that 1) horse gut is huge 2) horses eat pretty constantly so, if you aren't supplementing calcium and it is just supplied in the forage there might well be enough time when the magnesium isn't around for it to be absorbed.
3) If supplementing calcium and mag in the same meal it might cause problems? maybe? I supposed we wait and see if their bones disintegrate in a few years.

 

[rhino]

Does it? That is not the information I have been given from other sources. Can you point me to where you found that out?


Hundreds of barefooters have been feeding large quantities of magnesium for more than 5 years now. Surely we'd be seeing something in our horses if this were true?

Interestingly, human type II diabetics are now also treated with it.

Magnesium deficiency can lead to hypocalcaemia as it is involved in regulating the hormones which control calcium metabolism.

It is also involved in regulating calcium uptake/excretion in the kidneys, so excess can be a problem in humans suffering from kidney failure (even in early stages). I know in humans it is most often seen from 'overdosing' on antacids.

 

[ester]

I do think the reason it all gets a bit 'evangelical' is because you probably have owners who have been trying to get their horses sound for sometime with other methods and they have resigned themselves to retirement/pts. Being the daft sentimental things we are we are v. happy/ecstatic to find something which returns our best mates to happy work and I can understand if people want to shout that from the rooftops! (I know I will if it applies, if not I shall chalk it up to experience knowing I tried all the logical options for said best mate).

People don't have to listen, it is up to owners to make what they think is the best decision for their horse, that runs with everything horse wise.. some would avoid extended box rest at all costs, others are happy to put their horses through this for the end outcome.

I think I'm pretty au fait with my horsecare but I certainly don't come from an era/situ where many horses were not shod. My formative years were spent in a RS where all were shod despite there being no roadwork apart from a couple of shetlands. Shoeing therefore = normal/necessary/essential in your head, when perhaps it isn't really. Taking them off has been a bit of a faff at times, and I am not really sure I would have done it had it not been for the lameness.

 

[willhegofirst]

When I had my first two ponies many many years ago, they were shod in the summer, but unshod in the winter as they didn't to the work in the winter to need shoes, only ridden at weekends.
My old lad had his shoes off due to an injury when he was in his twenties, his feet were much better after about six months, I got him boots to ride him in.
My lad I have now has never been shod, just because I have never felt the need, he has boots for the summer to hack out other than that he is fine in general, a bit footy this summer due to the amount of grass and therefore sugar. I would have had him shod if I felt he needed it though at ten now and a complete woos I think he would need sedating to get shoes on.

 

[Herpesas]

Where was that? Not on HHO surely?

No, thankfully not! It was an article someone had put a link to on Facebook.

 

[Fii]

Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it...

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses.

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional

Calm down FFS!!
You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!

 

[BeesKnees]

Calm down FFS!!
You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!

Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?

 

[sonicgold]

Shod or unshod, shod or barefoot? Is mine barefoot because I ride her booted? Probably not, but we are both happy, and that surely is the whole point. Do I come on line to insult or be insulted? No and if I feel I have/am I apologise or walk away. Breathe folks. Most of us do this for fun.

 

[rhino]

Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?

Possibly Fii has been out in that place I hear is called the 'real world' and has only just come back to her computer/thread and is replying to a post which directly quoted hers. One which directed several questions at her.

 

[Fii]

Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?

Not sure what it has to do with you, as i was "talking" to TallyHo not you, but i havnt been on here since my post last night, and was responding to TallyHo's response to mine, not wanting her to think i was meaning her, OK!!
And who appointed you chairperson??

 

[tallyho!]

Calm down FFS!!
You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!

Despite what it came across as, I was actually calm when I wrote that. Sorry that it came across as hysterics Fii.

Don't worry, as usual rhino calmed me down and made me see sense

Off to rescue ponies from horsefly swarms...

 

[Pale Rider]

33 pages so far, fantastic thread this.

Still not read anything to suggest that nailing metal shoes on is a good idea.

 

[mystiandsunny]

33 pages so far, fantastic thread this.

Still not read anything to suggest that nailing metal shoes on is a good idea.

I won't unless I have to (shoes cost lots of ££!!). So - why are any of them shod?

1) Had canker. One front hoof grows at a funny angle (literally, whole thing grows kind of diagonally) so is shod every 6 weeks with special shoes, and both front hooves (worst affected) need raising out of the mud/wet/whatever to enable pony to have turnout in those conditions. In her case we DON'T want the frog contacting the ground, and hoof boots would again create that anaerobic environment, let a little wet in and potentially create just the wrong conditions. Plus they're not healthy to wear 24/7.

2) Was sold to me from the field, so in NO WORK at all - out at grass with no stones or anything. Soles were so thin you could see a pulse around the edges, pony extremely footsore even on a smooth hard surface. Not lami. Turned out her sire throws progeny with very chalky, soft, easily worn hooves. Not a problem if they're shod, but it took serious £££ of gel pads and all sorts to get her comfy, then to grow enough sole to be a normal pony. She will be shod all round throughout her life - not risking that ever again! Even on the best low-sugar diet with proper vit/min supplementation etc, the soles are still chalky and easily flake when you're picking out her hooves.

Now if I could possibly save £180 every six weeks, and have those two without shoes, I most certainly would!!! The other three aren't shod, but then they're happy and healthy as they are - the above two would not be, and their health/comfort comes first.

Why would anyone compromise the health of their animals just to stick to an 'ideal'? Surely they should get what they need?

 

[Clava]

I won't unless I have to (shoes cost lots of ££!!). So - why are any of them shod?

1) Had canker. One front hoof grows at a funny angle (literally, whole thing grows kind of diagonally) so is shod every 6 weeks with special shoes, and both front hooves (worst affected) need raising out of the mud/wet/whatever to enable pony to have turnout in those conditions. In her case we DON'T want the frog contacting the ground, and hoof boots would again create that anaerobic environment, let a little wet in and potentially create just the wrong conditions. Plus they're not healthy to wear 24/7.

2) Was sold to me from the field, so in NO WORK at all - out at grass with no stones or anything. Soles were so thin you could see a pulse around the edges, pony extremely footsore even on a smooth hard surface. Not lami. Turned out her sire throws progeny with very chalky, soft, easily worn hooves. Not a problem if they're shod, but it took serious £££ of gel pads and all sorts to get her comfy, then to grow enough sole to be a normal pony. She will be shod all round throughout her life - not risking that ever again! Even on the best low-sugar diet with proper vit/min supplementation etc, the soles are still chalky and easily flake when you're picking out her hooves.

Now if I could possibly save £180 every six weeks, and have those two without shoes, I most certainly would!!! The other three aren't shod, but then they're happy and healthy as they are - the above two would not be, and their health/comfort comes first.

Why would anyone compromise the health of their animals just to stick to an 'ideal'? Surely they should get what they need?

Genuine question - if the horse has thin soles, how does a shoe protect them? All our stoney ground projects in excess of a shoe's depth? and I always thought a flaky sole was dead material exfoliating?