thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

ester said:
but if you know that the woolly science behind it wouldn't actually stand up to any sort of scrutiny what does it matter if it seems to work for your horse. ..
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I completely agree with this - hell I'm the first one to reach for the echinacea when I get a cold. :o

However it is important to ensure no harm is done - which s why I tend to warn agains massive supplements of single minerals as they can block absorption of other minerals, cause stomach upsets or very occasionally be toxic if used by someone who feels more is better.

Also it is not an alternative to good vetinary care - they had to make it illegal to claim to be able to cure cancer due to charlatans telling people not to take their chemotherapy and use diet instead.

So it's fine to suggest someone tries a cheap, balanced supplement at around required amounts to see it their horse's hooves improve on it, it's not acceptable to tell a person with a horse with sore feet to do this rather than get them seen by a vet/qualified farrier as appropriate. In fact I suspect it's illegal for the owner to not get proper advice.

So my horse was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground, she had a vet check her feet and give the ok and then a farrier who advised that her low sole was hurting when she stood on a stone and lifting it up with a shoe would help. I followed advice and she's hugely better. This doesn't mean I can't take them off in the future, but for now it has dealt with the pain. Yes the previous owner didn't feel the need, but they also didn't feel the need to get her teeth checked and sharp molars had left her with lacerations on her tongue. In time with enough coarse forage the sharp edges would have gone, but I chose vetinary care first. Also she would need to be kept away from the nice soft grass in the field and I'm going for the benefits of turnout/rasping rather than stabling/fixing with feed.

Paula
 
With all due respect to everyone, quite a lot of claptrap saved my horse.

That makes it an anecdotal case, so perhaps I should stop quoting it. However, since approved clinical evidence did not help my horse, I resorted to well researched, but unapproved claptrap.

Glad I did as said horse back competing.

Not all claptrap is created equal I say. You have to use your claptrapometer to help you wade through and find the useful claptrap.

Bring on the claptrap I say. But take it with a pinch of salt... Literally lol :)
 
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PR - my assumption is based on your childish and naive comments. I have not changed my assumption.*

Reading your other posts you seem like a very combative person....So I think I will just leave you to your silly thoughts.*

And 'had a hand in training' is very vague and covers a multitude of sins.....did you hold it for the farrier?? Oh, but I forgot....people who care about their horses don't GET the farrier....pffft

It really, really offends me that you can make this silly assumption about people who ride at top level. They 'don't care' about the horses??

Rubbish.*
 
merlinsquest said:
Next time I'm at a big show I'll suggest to them that they should all become cleaners or lollipop men as this is a logical choice rather than putting shoes & studs on, no there is no man with a gun, but there are owners/sponsors expecting results & a return on their £0000000000 of investment. Actually I doubt many of them do have a choice to do something else, as in the majority this is all they know, so I very much doubt it would be "no problem whatsover" to just do something else. I actually can't wait to talk about this thread between classes next week, some of these statements are hysterical. Could you just do another job just like that, & would you want to if you had spent years working your way to the top?
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Your argument is ridiculous and if you are a teacher I hope they don't all have your inability to argue sensibly. No-one has ever said that you or any of these people should not shoe. All I have done is point out that there is always a choice.

They do have a choice. There is always a choice. Unemployment would be a choice. No one expects them to make that choice, and your continuing discussion as if someone has said that they do is daft.

They are not made to shoe and stud. They choose to. The fact that they choose to is no problem to any of us.
 
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merlinsquest said:
Next time I'm at a big show I'll suggest to them that they should all become cleaners or lollipop men as this is a logical choice rather than putting shoes & studs on, no there is no man with a gun, but there are owners/sponsors expecting results & a return on their £0000000000 of investment. Actually I doubt many of them do have a choice to do something else, as in the majority this is all they know, so I very much doubt it would be "no problem whatsover" to just do something else. I actually can't wait to talk about this thread between classes next week, some of these statements are hysterical. Could you just do another job just like that, & would you want to if you had spent years working your way to the top?
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No choice? Crikey, how do you get yourself in these situations? :)

I honestly don't think anyone is having a go at you for your choice of lifestyle. If that's what you want to do, you should keep going. People do work hard to get where they want to be as I am sure you and your friends have.

People's opinions are shaped by their experiences. You are shaped by yours.

What's wrong with being a cleaner btw?
 
Paulag said:
I completely agree with this - hell I'm the first one to reach for the echinacea when I get a cold. :o
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In spite of the fact that the last research I saw reported about it concluded that it extends the symptoms of a cold by a measureable amount of time :D ?


Paulag said:
I'm going for the benefits of turnout/rasping {I think you mean nailing on steel} rather than stabling/fixing with feed.
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I am intrigued by the fact that instead of the words nailing on shoes you chose to say "rasping" ? I continue to get the impression that you actually feel bad at some level about having shod your horse. I don't think you should, personally, one of the arguments I find strongest is the ability to keep the horse turned out 24/7 particularly by people with busy lives who have a living to earn.
 
tallyho! said:
No choice? Crikey, how do you get yourself in these situations? :)

I honestly don't think anyone is having a go at you for your choice of lifestyle. If that's what you want to do, you should keep going. People do work hard to get where they want to be as I am sure you and your friends have.

People's opinions are shaped by their experiences. You are shaped by yours.

What's wrong with being a cleaner btw?
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Nothing wrong with being a cleaner, I have been one to pay for my show jumping, lol, this thread is actually making me really laugh now. BTW CPT the thought of myself being a teacher is quite scary, poor kids is all I can say! I accept that they CHOOSE to stud, but I also understand why they CHOOSE to do it, I also accept that it is unlikely they will choose unemployment over show jumping, & yes Tallyho thats a very valid point that peoples opinions are shaped by their experiences & riders at top level have plenty...
 
cptrayes said:
In spite of the fact that the last research I saw reported about it concluded that it extends the symptoms of a cold by a measureable amount of time :D ?
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Really, seriously? Have I missed something here and you are winding me up here (never been so good at spotting that)? Have you read the Cochrane report?
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD000530/echinacea-for-preventing-and-treating-the-common-cold

cptrayes said:
I am intrigued by the fact that instead of the words nailing on shoes you chose to say "rasping" ? I continue to get the impression that you actually feel bad at some level about having shod your horse. I don't think you should, personally, one of the arguments I find strongest is the ability to keep the horse turned out 24/7 particularly by people with busy lives who have a living to earn.
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OK I'm bored now. You aren't making any sense. I was using an example of where vetinary care in a different situation (overgrown molars) was appropriate rather than changing feed - her teeth were rasped, her shoes are nailed on.

Right talking of stopping feeding, I'm off now.
 
Patty, you really are being the naive one here with your assertion that if you are at the top level then you will necessarily be kind or compassionate or caring about the horse they compete with. Of course some people are, but some are not. Look at Rolkur, Anky van Grunsven, thought this was ok, was she not at the top of her game.
What about soreing horses, some think this is a valid way to treat a horse.
I am a realist where competition is concerned.
Why do you think drug use is so rife, in sport.

No, you won't find me holding a lead rope for a farrier, I have done in the past, and now I am sorry I did, and feel guilty about it.
 
And your assertion that if you are at top level then you don't care about your horse is NOT naive?

Oh of course not.....

I'd love to stay and hear more of your illuminating and enlightening views on top level competition.....but sadly I have to go and drug/beat my horses. Being someone who has competed at high level and also shoes and studs, this is obviously what I spend my days doing.
 
PR you are way off the mark about pro's and caring for their horses just like happy hackers race horse owners and lower level competitive riders you will find a range of emotional attachment within a group of pro's some are besotted with their horses others less so but in my experiance (first hand ) the care of horses is very good.
Modern competition horses are for the most part bred for the job and the vast majority enjoy their work.
 
merlinsquest said:
I accept that they CHOOSE to stud, but I also understand why they CHOOSE to do it, I also accept that it is unlikely they will choose unemployment over show jumping, & yes Tallyho thats a very valid point that peoples opinions are shaped by their experiences & riders at top level have plenty...
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I think everyone here, including myself, is of the understanding that competitors CHOOSE to stud and are aware of WHY. In the past we have done the very same thing so you telling us this is rather like repeating what we have been saying for a long time.

I don't CHOOSE to do it anymore. I don't think any differently of friends who carry on CHOOSING to do so. I CHOOSE where I ride and when I ride. They CHOOSE which studs to use.

Surely, that's not worth falling out over.
 
I am monitoring the rudometer however I am off to am Olympic XC party shortly unfortunatly the technology for the claprapometer is much more complicated one persons claptrap is another's interesting idea.
 
Goldenstar said:
I am monitoring the rudometer however I am off to am Olympic XC party shortly unfortunatly the technology for the claprapometer is much more complicated one persons claptrap is another's interesting idea.
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Tsk... you just cant get the staff these days :rolleyes:

:D
 
cptrayes said:
Horses in shoes seem to develop the long toes, weak heels and toe first landing that are the main prerequisites of long term hoof lameness much more easily than unshod horses. In addition, the vast majority of horses which are in shoes when this happens are brought sound in a few months by removal of the shoes (plus good feeding and a proper work program), leading to the strong conclusion that the shoes were causing or perpetuating the problem.

I know of three unshod horses with caudal hoof lameness. All were caused by inadequate stimulation of the back half of the foot leading to a frog which was not in ground contact, and a toe first landing.
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Confused by this. First pony I owned had frogs which were not in ground contact and she had never been shod in her life. Nor was she lame.

Did anyone answer my question about how you manage lifestyle with no grass grazing? Can't be bothered reading through all this thread again.
 
The results of my poll which was conducted in another thread but inspired by this one (especially the question about why this subject raises such passion):

Do nailed-on shoes damage horses feet?

No, a well shod hoof suffers no damage from the shoes Answers 14, Percentage 31.82%
Yes, but the benefits gained outweigh the damage (shod all year) Answers 14 Percentage 31.82%
Yes, I only shoe for part of the year to minimise damage Answers 16 Percentage 36.36%

I wonder if this could be part of the answer? As a dedicated barefooter, I have no doubt that shoes are very bad for feet. I still understand why people shoe in certain circumstances, where the benefits might outweigh the costs.
One third of the people who answered here however believe that shoes do not damage feet at all. If they are coming from such a different place in the hymn book, would that explain why they get upset?
 
baran said:
Confused by this. First pony I owned had frogs which were not in ground contact and she had never been shod in her life. Nor was she lame.

Did anyone answer my question about how you manage lifestyle with no grass grazing? Can't be bothered reading through all this thread again.
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Many horses, and especially ponies, cope fine with no frog contact.

But time and again the horses at Rockley come sound only after the frog is meaty enough to be weight bearing, at which point they also go heel first landing and stop causing themselves soft tissue damage through a faulty action.

The only barefoot horse which I have known get a navicular diagnosis was fine until lack of work/movement caused his frog to shrink, and he was fine again as soon as it beefed back up and his hoof walls wore down.

Lots of people keep shod laminitis risk horses and ponies on dry lots with no grass. Managing a barefoot horse with no grass is done exactly the same same way. Track systems allow a very low grass option with a lot more space for movement. And some people have gone to the expense and trouble of laying a grassless track, which is one of the enormous advantages that Rockley has in rehabbing their foot lame patients, an awesome track system.
 
Tallyho a lot off " claptrap" is also saving my horse, he trotted down the field to me this morning sound. He would be dead by now if it was for all this claptrap. He's not had 1 lame stride since his shoes came off. And I use to be the biggest anti around. Maybe a few more people need to be in the situation where they face pts or try barefoot and a trimmer. Which as a total anti barefoot I was faced against.
I'm totally shocked by the changes and his way off moving in such a short time.
It really has opened my eyes and I'm glade iv managed to open my eyes, widen my views and look at something which I really didn't believe in, my lad has a good life ahead off him now thanks to my trimmer and barefoot.
He's a ex racer as well. Tbs can do it.
 
Paulag said:
Really, seriously? Have I missed something here and you are winding me up here (never been so good at spotting that)? Have you read the Cochrane report?
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD000530/echinacea-for-preventing-and-treating-the-common-cold
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No I'm not winding you up, though it was probably reported in the Mail. There really doesn't appear to be any serious evidence that Echinacea does diddly squat though, and has some bad side effects for some people too. I will read your thing and see what it says.

http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/echinacea-for-colds-and-the-flu/

Paulag said:
OK I'm bored now. You aren't making any sense. I was using an example of where vetinary care in a different situation (overgrown molars) was appropriate rather than changing feed - her teeth were rasped, her shoes are nailed on.
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Apologies, I misread your comment "rasping" as being about feet not teeth. I don't see the relevance of comparing rasping teeth to shoeing. Whilst I can see that it shows that your horse didn't have the best owner, as a procedure it has no downsides, no viable alternative and is a no-brainer. Shoeing, on the other hand, at the very least level of harm, provides 5-7 holes in each foot that are wonderful breeding grounds for opportunistic anaerobic bacteria.
 
Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians. They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes. Some of the horses are now veterans, so they must need your expertise after a life time in shoes.
Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.

Some of the 'facts' and assertions on this thread are so funny, its in the realms of the absurd now.
Who says shod horses slip on roads ? My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.
 
thatsmygirl said:
Tallyho a lot off " claptrap" is also saving my horse, he trotted down the field to me this morning sound. He would be dead by now if it was for all this claptrap. He's not had 1 lame stride since his shoes came off. And I use to be the biggest anti around. Maybe a few more people need to be in the situation where they face pts or try barefoot and a trimmer. Which as a total anti barefoot I was faced against.
I'm totally shocked by the changes and his way off moving in such a short time.
It really has opened my eyes and I'm glade iv managed to open my eyes, widen my views and look at something which I really didn't believe in, my lad has a good life ahead off him now thanks to my trimmer and barefoot.
He's a ex racer as well. Tbs can do it.
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I totally agree with this, also have an ex racer who is getting better daily barefoot, I think people have to be in our position to really appreciate the changes it can make!
 
Pale Rider said:
To be frank I've no idea what your opinions are, but if you think that shod horses don't slip on tarmac, you're wrong, so changing this one would be a start.
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Of course shod horses slip on tarmac (this is not opinion, this is fact) but you said,
"Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails."
This is an opinion and I disagree with it. I haven't ever found shod horses a 'nightmare' on tarmac and I don't believe you need road nails/studs to safely walk or even trot! :eek: The only roads Hoss has occasional trouble with are steep /smooth ones when I usually get off anyway (I hate riding downhill, something to do with peering over the edge into an abyss!). You should assess the condition of the road and ride accordingly same as you would when driving a car.

I used to ride a horse in rubber stick on shoes and they were the worst for slipping, especially in the wet (Disclaimer: This is my opinion and other people's experience may differ :D).
 
horserider said:
Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians. They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes. Some of the horses are now veterans, so they must need your expertise after a life time in shoes.
Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.

Some of the 'facts' and assertions on this thread are so funny, its in the realms of the absurd now.
Who says shod horses slip on roads ? My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.
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Not as absurd as you are :D

Ooh! Did I just break the rude meter again?! Sorreeeeee!
 
I actually wanted to know if any horses competed at Olympic level barefoot and apart from the well known Emma Hindle, sadly no, I can't find anyone this year. One day...

Anyway, the title I found striking although it has nothing to do with yours truly!!

http://eventingakhaltekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/tazym-update-akhal-teke-sport-horse.html

P.s. not trying to prove anything here, found it funny there's a barefoot blog with tallyho in it :D
 
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To some people on this thread as it's now descended into farce.........


You are motivated by the desire to defend your ego to the bitter end in the vain attempt to get the last word, by dissecting threads line by line as you do, shows you have some kind of problem. Do you see open discussion as a threat to your stance and beliefs? You refuse to see others' points of view as being valid; and don't for one minute accept what they have to say. Narcissist springs to mind.
 
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