Thought on whips?

Pale Rider said:
Three down the belly, may be allowed, but I find it abhorrent.

The daft thing is you all want swift responses to soft aids, but you are teaching the opposite.
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Not so!

It is no different than telling a naughty child "I'll count to three" then if ignored giving a punishment.

Horses learn by habit - the bad habits picked up as fasat as the good. We used to have a riding school horse that though obedient and would walk trot and canter on request he did not give more than the minimal which was hard for a rider ttrying to develop more knowledge.

I'd get on him, drop him one good whop with the schooling whip and for the rest of the lesson he would work like a pro. In fact he was part of a big dressage quadrille display with one of my frineds after her horse went lame and was awesoome.

I don't know which 'Natural' yoou follow but PArrelli starts with the use of the rope at different pressures until the horse responds.

I have great admiration for the true PArrelli people who can work with such a close bond, however it still boils down to "Me Master - you horse"
 
almost always carry a whip, but hardly ever use it.

used it more recently when jumping as asked by my instructor. i also think schooling whips are a very useful tool, if not overused.
 
littlelegs said:
Tnavas, so when they haven't even grasped the basic position, let alone an independent seat & the rights to the reins, & before they have any idea what the natural aids are, let alone correctly using them, they carry a whip too? I'm not picking an argument btw, or saying you allow beginners to beat ponies up with them, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is, & why you believe its best to do it that way round?
My own teaching philosophy is that nobody even gets to hold the reins, or use natural aids, let alone false aids until they have a completely independent seat. Then natural aids are learnt on a horse that doesn't need reminding to listen, only then would I want them on a more challenging pony/horse. ( not so much thinking in terms of rights/ wrongs of whips, just find different teaching philosophies interesting).
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Hi - no they don't get to beat up the ponies Ever! PArt of learnign to ride is dealing with the reins, the whip and the movement of the pony. All my ponies wear a neck strap which is used at all times with the inside hand when learning to rise to the trot. Many schools will have a rider hold the front of the saddle. Holding the saddle encourages riders to push their bums out the back rather than swinging the hips forward so the result ends with bum out the back, feet out the front = heavy rider.

My beginners also do a lot of work with no stirrups from day one. They have their first canter with no stirrups as they don't tend to bounce around like they will with stirrups. They hold the front of the saddle for this. The whip becomes part and parcel of their riding and position. They develop independant seats really quickly. One of the highlights of lessons for most is jumping - no stirrups no reins holding a beaker of water! To date we've had a good few of our riders go on to compete internationally.

I had really great ponies - I don't knkow if it was just luck or our philosophy that you can't learn to ride properly if you have to sit and kick at every stride. The ponies also knew the rider carried a stick so knew that if they diddn't co-operate they might get a tap.

I know some of my ideas are contraversial but they seem to work. When ILPH was still in operation they came to assess the school - spot check no warning. The inspectors stayed for several hours and watched lessons, met ponies and riders. They both kept commenting on the quality of tuition, the quality of riding and the happy willing ponies. Like every other part of learning to ride carrying a whip was part of the process and that it was not a weapon but to be used as and when truly required. I also used to tell them - that if you are so mad with your pony, get off and go and kick the gate post!
 
I like a responsive and obedient horse so I carry one and use it if and when I have to. However I never use it as a punishment because its not for that.
 
I work horses in hand quite a bit, also occasionally ride sidesaddle, and drive a little bit, as well as work horses at liberty (we provide horses for film & TV and give historical riding displays), and do dressage to small tour, including some High School work. I also have some rescue horses, two of whom have been beaten. I sometimes carry a whip. I have NEVER beaten, or even really hit, a horse in my life. I do use the whip to reschool, but I am aiming for very light, imperceptable aids. Whips are not permitted at most dressage competition, are not appropriate in filming or display situations, and are not a REQUIREMENT for riding my horses (which will all canter from a halt, to a halt, BTW). I don't have a problem with using a whip to reinforce an aid, and neither do my (very sensitive) horses.
 
Cortez said:
I work horses in hand quite a bit, also occasionally ride sidesaddle, and drive a little bit, as well as work horses at liberty (we provide horses for film & TV and give historical riding displays), and do dressage to small tour, including some High School work. I also have some rescue horses, two of whom have been beaten. I sometimes carry a whip. I have NEVER beaten, or even really hit, a horse in my life. I do use the whip to reschool, but I am aiming for very light, imperceptable aids. Whips are not permitted at most dressage competition, are not appropriate in filming or display situations, and are not a REQUIREMENT for riding my horses (which will all canter from a halt, to a halt, BTW). I don't have a problem with using a whip to reinforce an aid, and neither do my (very sensitive) horses.
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Yes, I agree with this. If a whip is used to touch a horse (and I mean touch) to reinforce an aid I have no problem with it. In theory that means that your aids never need to be anything but soft, and if your timing is right, you shouldn't need to keep "reinforcing" because you will have been effective and the horse will respond to the aid in future.

Smacks, taps, belts etc - my thoughts on that would be that I'm not comfortable with it and I wouldn't let anyone do anything described in those terms to my horses. I hope that makes sense. Someone referred to western riding earlier on the thread. Why is it that reasonable western riders seem to be able to teach their horses to the point where they don't need to have whips handy for a "smack" every now and then? But so often in our lessons it is expected that we carry a whip and would probably need to use it at least once a lesson. Surely that means that what we are doing (with the whips) isn't working because the lesson isn't getting learnt by the horse? I think the horses just get desensitised to be honest, which is very sad.
 
Tinypony said:
Why is it that reasonable western riders seem to be able to teach their horses to the point where they don't need to have whips handy for a "smack" every now and then?
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Have you seen the spurs that many 'reasonable' Western riders use?

Western_spurs_photo_by_Lostinfog_-_wiki.jpg


Yeah I wouldn't use a whip either...
 
IMO a touch with a spur (on a trained horse) is very much preferable to a thumping from a kicking rider - my horses would either just ignore a kick.............or kill you!
 
Interesting tnavas, thanks for explaining. I'll admit I've done little in the way of rs teaching, so have slightly more leeway, & average beginner age probably lower. So although I've done loads of bareback & hands on heads (which I doubt modern h&s would allow in a rs) I think there isn't a vast difference in how we teach. And couldn't agree more about kick along ponies, apart from the fact it can't be pleasant for the pony, it does nothing for the rider. Just goes to show how something that on the surface sounds so different from how I think isn't at all.
 
Cortez said:
IMO a touch with a spur (on a trained horse) is very much preferable to a thumping from a kicking rider - my horses would either just ignore a kick.............or kill you!
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Agree very much with this.

I can't bear seeing spoilt little kids on their ponies hammering away at their sides constantly and screaming at them! :mad:
 
The thing with kids and ponies can be really difficult in real life .
I ran a riding school at one point and getting forward going ponys who where really safe was not easy and giving that it's difficult to train little ponies as they are too small for adults to ride I lunged them a lot and got them good to the voice and loved to teach the basics on the lunge but the owner said that this was not cost effective and the parents often could not be sold th idea that a twenty minute one to one on the lunge was better that an hour in a group trailing round the school while attempted to teach eight beginners at once.
The truth is first ponies are often pretty bombproof and not very reactive that's sort of their point.
The riding school that taught me did lots of led hacking out ( lots of horsemad older kids to help) we galloped the ponys up the hill after lessons bareback they put the saddles in a car and sent us off up the hill to the stables hanging onto neck straps we had great fun and fell off lots you simply could not do it that way now you would risk spending your whole time in court.
 
xspiralx said:
Have you seen the spurs that many 'reasonable' Western riders use?

Western_spurs_photo_by_Lostinfog_-_wiki.jpg


Yeah I wouldn't use a whip either...
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Yes, of course I have. That's a rowel spur, and as with everything else, how forceful it is depends on how it's used. In fact, because it is rolled along the side of the horse, it isn't as severe as the short fixed spurs that us "english" riders are more inclined to use. With proper control a rowel spur can just be a tickle. And of course nobody should wear spurs unless they have really good control of their legs...

I suppose this all depends on the skill of the rider. If a rider has good feel and timing, and is consistent in the use of their aids, then if they need to reinforce with the TOUCH of a whip, or the ROLL of a rowel spur it will be a temporary situation, a stage in training that then passes. Personally I think that if I was constantly having to reinforce the same set of aids over and over again when riding I would be doing something wrong and would need a re-think. For example, if the horse regularly ignored my leg and I then felt I needed to smack it with a whip - I would be experiencing the results of my (poor) training. Not a lazy horse.

When I watch someone riding and using the spur, or even their heels and legs at every stride, I just cringe.

Obviously in a riding school situation, with horses and ponies that are constantly being ridden by different people, some more sensitive than others, they are likely to get a bit desensitised. It's a shame they have to regularly be "smacked" with whips as a result. Maybe the reason why so many of us are comfortable with that term (I used to be) is because we are taught to regard the horse as being naughty and needing to be punished?

This isn't a dig at anyone, honestly. The thread asked for thoughts on whips, and these are my personal thoughts. No need for anyone to feel defensive on my account. :-)

Just to add - because western riders tend to ride long, it tends to be the case that they are less likely to make contact with their spurs by accident. As you can see from that photo. It's not always the case of course, but something I've noticed among many of the "cowboys" I've met.
 
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Littlelegs, I know nothing about carriage driving, I doubt you'd be flogging your horses though. I really don't have a problem with a whip as an extension of your arm, same as a stick or anything else.
 
123skyflyer, assuming there is no physical reason causing this behavior, sounds to me like you've got a confidence issue. The horse hasn't got confidence in you as a leader, so, he is using evasion to make his own decisions.
A lot of the time people start using tie down tack in an effort to control this sort of behavior.
I always say, good luck with that, it's not going to cure the problem, it won't work and the horse will find some other way to thwart you.
The horse needs to see you as the leader and decision maker, initially lots of ground work, you have to be particular about it, if you ask for something you want it swiftly and very precise.
You need to build the horse's confidence in you to the level where if you say, we go here, he knows he can and will be safe.
 
Cortez said:
IMO a touch with a spur (on a trained horse) is very much preferable to a thumping from a kicking rider - my horses would either just ignore a kick.............or kill you!
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I would completely agree - which is the same for whips.
 
Tinypony said:
Yes, of course I have. That's a rowel spur, and as with everything else, how forceful it is depends on how it's used. In fact, because it is rolled along the side of the horse, it isn't as severe as the short fixed spurs that us "english" riders are more inclined to use. With proper control a rowel spur can just be a tickle. And of course nobody should wear spurs unless they have really good control of their legs...

I suppose this all depends on the skill of the rider. If a rider has good feel and timing, and is consistent in the use of their aids, then if they need to reinforce with the TOUCH of a whip, or the ROLL of a rowel spur it will be a temporary situation, a stage in training that then passes. Personally I think that if I was constantly having to reinforce the same set of aids over and over again when riding I would be doing something wrong and would need a re-think. For example, if the horse regularly ignored my leg and I then felt I needed to smack it with a whip - I would be experiencing the results of my (poor) training. Not a lazy horse.
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Nail on head really.

Use of any aids (whip, spurs, strong bits etc) are absolutely fine when used correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, or is being taught by someone who does.

As I said earlier, if you are schooling a horse for a while and it isn't getting any better, softer or lighter - then you're not doing a good job. Whether you choose to use a whip - or not.
 
fburton said:
I suppose there's a good point behind the expression "to earn one's spurs".
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Yes I believe that it refers to the point when in times past aristocratic young men had reached an age and stage where they where ready to go off on horseback and try to kill other similar young men dont think animal welfare got a look in.
 
Thanks for answering pr, I don't drive myself at the mo, & my past experience was limited to only a few ponies. I asked more because I wanted to confirm where I thought you were coming from with your stance on whips. I already stated my honest use for a whip early on, although most people thought I was joking! Have to admit I also use one to emphasise arm signals on roads, & I'd prefer to wave one at a out of control dog than have it kicked when out hacking. Can't remember the last time I removed a whip from its position under my leg though.
 
There are a wide range of opinions about whips here, as you would expect. Some of the reasons for carrying them are quite funny, others I find a little strange. A lot seem to believe that there is a safety aspect to using them, a backup for the leg. That to me seems a massive hole in the training.
I now ride western, but for many years I rode English. I didn't use a whip or a crop then though, so I've always been predisposed not to carry one.
I got interested in long riding, and it was the search for a decent saddle that could be used all day and be comfortable for the horse that I turned to western tack.
No English saddle is comfortable for a horse after a few hours. I wanted a saddle for 8hrs plus.
So that's why I ride western.
I find the concept of carrying a whip to be safe on the road, odd. If the horse is not responding sharply to the lightest aid, should he really be on the road?
I suppose basically, it depends what you settle for. I want feather like lightness and instant response. I want to think about changing gait for it to happen.
Nothing that I want from a horse can be got using a whip, that's why I don't use them.

Other folk have different ideas, good luck with that.
 
PR it must be lovely to live in your perfect world, can i move there please? My horse has excellent responses when ridden and is perfectly capable of responding to light aids. I carry a whip out hacking and rarely use it but one occaission did occur last saturday. Out hacking alone having a lovely time. Came accross a shoot who were not where they had told our yard they would be and were shooting over a bridleway, rather annoying but hey ho. Horse was fine and we stood until i managed to catch someones attention and they stopped shooting to allow me to pass. Then one muppet mistakenly let off a shot whilst we were very close, it was an accident. Horse is pretty bombproof but this really did frightened him and started backing up and wouldnt go forward. One swift smack with the stick just behind my leg and he came to his senses and walked on without fuss and we continued our ride. Once moving forwards he got a couple of big pats and fuss much to the shoots amusement!

I can count on one hand the amount of times i have used my stick on him including this one but cant see how it could have been sorted differently with so little fuss and hassle when it was essential i got out of the way of the shoot quickly and safely.
 
If it works for Pale Rider I don't see why people should be so cynical about it and dismiss his claims as fairy tales. Perhaps we should instead be asking, and some have, how he achieves these results. Personally I would not use a whip on a scared horse but I can accept that it works for someone else. You are the best judge of your animal after all. Adding pain to fear seems to me like a dangerous combination.
 
I don't disbelieve him, it's his attitude that sucks. 'your rubbish unless you ride like me' but then doesn't give any hints on how to acheive this. I'm sorry, I wasnt born with the knowledge, but I do want to learn! Im glad he can ride well, but unless you're willing to tell us how to improve, dont call us ALL bad riders.
 
TrasaM said:
If it works for Pale Rider I don't see why people should be so cynical about it and dismiss his claims as fairy tales. Perhaps we should instead be asking, and some have, how he achieves these results.
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On this forum, people have, many times. Pale Rider has repeatedly refused to share any significant detail about his methods, or even back up his claims with any proof. It's not surprising that many on here take his claims with a pinch of salt :)

It's easy to claim to be an amazing horseman on a forum where nobody knows your name!
 
JFTD & Nah.. Fair comment. :)

Over to you Pale Rider.. I'd be really interested in hearing your story. I can patch some of it together from your comments on this post and the one re Tori whotsit but it would be good to have a more in depth explanation (which does not involve telling anyone that they are dumb) where did you start? How did you get where you are now with horsemanship. :)
 
Pale Rider said:
I want feather like lightness and instant response. I want to think about changing gait for it to happen.
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I like that last bit. Isn't that the goal of all horsemanship?

I don't see a great deal of relevance in the English vs Western part of the discussion though, as although a crop is not a standard part of Western kit, the long split reins or the quirt of a romal rein, or indeed a whip-whop tool can, and do on occasion, all get used for similar purposes around the world.
As a Western rider I can see from an equitation perspective exactly where you are coming from I think, and I agree with you. Good training and consistency can achieve that lightness and responsiveness in any discipline. But - in defence of the amateur rider of which I am one - lack of consistency is also the problem which judicious use of a whip can help address; my horses are outstandingly well trained but they are also very smart and if my riding lacks consistency they will dull themselves down to the bare minimum and I will end up over-driving them with my legs before I've even noticed. I'm certainly not going to spur them because spurs are for lift and shape. So I'll resort to a session with a dressage whip to add scale to my leg aid. It's just a tool. Once the message is understood, the tool goes back in the box. Along with the 5 or 6 different bridles and bits I use as well. Hey ho.
Maybe I need to go join a knitting bee instead?
 
Whips have their place. I usually ride with a short crop, but it's rare that I use it. Having said that, I would rather have it there to give a quick tap on the shoulder rather than kick my boy in the ribs. It's a reminder, not a weapon.
 
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