Thought on whips?

Pale Rider said:
The daft thing is you all want swift responses to soft aids, but you are teaching the opposite.
Click to expand...

But isn't that one of the main reasons a whip is carried by most people?

If the horse doesn't respond to the soft aid, the soft aid is applied again, backed up with a stronger aid (e.g. flick with a whip). When the horse offers the desired response or something closer to the desired response (e.g. go forwards) he is rewarded and the pressure is released.

As long as your time is good, the horse will begin to associate the reaction he gives to the stronger aid with the initial softer aid so you can drop the stronger aid altogether - it's classical conditioning & shaping behaviour...

If the horse ignores your initial soft aid and you continue to re-apply it (nag), I would imagine it ceases to be an aid because it holds no meaning for a horse as a request?

I personally think there is a difference between amplifying another aid with a whip or a spur and hitting/kicking a horse as a punishment out of temper.
 
Batgirl said:
Ditto, I do ride with my energy however my energy doesn't tell a horse it hasn't done what it should have done, what do you actually do when teaching a horse a movement and it doesn't respond to your leg

Raising energy does not get my horses bum a metre to the left when it is in front of a speeding car.
Click to expand...

Batgirl, have you read "That Winning Feeling"? - this will tell you how to use positive and negative reinforcement to do so and is the clearest explanation I've found in any of the books I've read. Fab book (I got it from ebay for a quid ages ago, but have since mislaid it):) Cant remember who its by...
 
Achinghips said:
Batgirl, have you read "That Winning Feeling"? - this will tell you how to use positive and negative reinforcement to do so and is the clearest explanation I've found in any of the books I've read. Fab book (I got it from ebay for a quid ages ago, but have since mislaid it):) Cant remember who its by...
Click to expand...

Leonie Savoie it's an amazing book.
 
Pale Rider said:
123skyflyer, assuming there is no physical reason causing this behavior, sounds to me like you've got a confidence issue. The horse hasn't got confidence in you as a leader, so, he is using evasion to make his own decisions.
A lot of the time people start using tie down tack in an effort to control this sort of behavior.
I always say, good luck with that, it's not going to cure the problem, it won't work and the horse will find some other way to thwart you.
The horse needs to see you as the leader and decision maker, initially lots of ground work, you have to be particular about it, if you ask for something you want it swiftly and very precise.
You need to build the horse's confidence in you to the level where if you say, we go here, he knows he can and will be safe.
Click to expand...

Well his bridle defonatly fits correctly and there can't be a problem with his back because he doesn't care about me messing about (around the world, luying back etc) when we stand there and he doesn't care when I get on. I have doen HEEPS or ground work, he will go anywhere solong as I'm leading, over flapping plactic and away over the hill. I have though about him not having confidence in me once I'm on his back but can't make sence out of it.
 
Goldenstar said:
Leonie Savoie it's an amazing book.
Click to expand...

Thanks both, I will look into it.

And Pale Rider never backs up his statements with any theory or practice or evidence or examples or by accepting willing students.

I will await his response which will be along the lines of 'you can't learn my methods unless you accept them totally without question and the teacher finds the student' or some ohter equally patronising bull :)
 
Batgirl said:
Thanks.

:)
Click to expand...

You're welcome, nice to be a help sometimes - it is good for explaining light off the leg principles, there are sections in it about competition and confidence too, if that's your bag:) Another good read is "Enlightened Equitation" by Heather Moffett that you may enjoy:)
 
I dont even own one.

If my ned isnt doing what Ive asked him to do then there are two reasons.

1, i havent asked him correctly or am blocking him somewhere.

2, he is ill.


Im gonna seem all high and mighty now but surely everyone knows to have sorted out the aids properly before embarking on doing anything dangerous like road work or XC ?
 
And, in defence of PR..

Surely every riding instructor should be teaching light aids without fear, pain or retribution? You all make it sound as though PR has this 'special gift' which is nonsense. Its just that he obviously spends his time with the horses In a fair and equal manner. I wonder how many of you 'dominate or rule or order your horses around?

If your instructor or YO is a whip happy, gadget galore rider start searching for someone who actually understands the horse. Horses, much like children have an ability to learn but dont do so well when threatened with a big stick. Imagine the look on your toddlers face if everytime you sat down to do some colouring you took your whip with you...and they remember that once, when they coloured outside the lines, they got hit. How relaxed do you think they would be at the table? Same applies to animals. It's not a great 'tool'.
 
giveitago said:
And, in defence of PR..

Surely every riding instructor should be teaching light aids without fear, pain or retribution? You all make it sound as though PR has this 'special gift' which is nonsense. Its just that he obviously spends his time with the horses In a fair and equal manner. I wonder how many of you 'dominate or rule or order your horses around?

If your instructor or YO is a whip happy, gadget galore rider start searching for someone who actually understands the horse. Horses, much like children have an ability to learn but dont do so well when threatened with a big stick. Imagine the look on your toddlers face if everytime you sat down to do some colouring you took your whip with you...and they remember that once, when they coloured outside the lines, they got hit. How relaxed do you think they would be at the table? Same applies to animals. It's not a great 'tool'.
Click to expand...
Whilst I strongly agree that a lot of riding instruction leaves a great deal to be desired (I am being polite here...), I would think that any decent instructor would be teaching students to ride according to the established priciples of invisible aids, lightness, etc.

There is a vast difference between being "whip happy" and using a schooling whip as a training aid, just as there is a difference between "spurring" a horse and using spurs to communicate aids in a refined manner. They are tools, and like all tools can either be used to create art or in a crude, ignorant or even dangerous manner. The key is in the education and training of those who use them.
 
Cortez said:
There is a vast difference between being "whip happy" and using a schooling whip as a training aid.
Click to expand...

Very true! I get told off (on here mind, not by YO or anyone else) for not using my whip enough. I was told to "Give it a bloomin' good whack" when he was playing up in the show ring. I would honestly rather not.
I was also told to whack him when he was playing up in the gateway. I did in fact try that but it made him rear so high he nearly fell. I've over come both of these without 'whacking'. (well, almost over come the showing thing, we're getting there!)
 
Thanks, Giveitago, no special gift at all, just study and practice.
It's just natural horsemanship I follow, and anyone else can do the same. I've been at this over 20yrs now and for anyone who wants to learn there are some good trainers about, if you look.
 
PapaFrita said:
LOL
"Feeeel the force, Luke" :p
Click to expand...
pmsl, PR thinks he's yoda, You must use a whip not. Yes, hmmm.
Batgirl said:
Thanks both, I will look into it.

And Pale Rider never backs up his statements with any theory or practice or evidence or examples or by accepting willing students.

I will await his response which will be along the lines of 'you can't learn my methods unless you accept them totally without question and the teacher finds the student' or some ohter equally patronising bull :)
Click to expand...

think he'd say it more like this ;) 'you, learn my methods unless you accept them totally without question and the teacher finds the student', cannot. Hmmmmmm.:D
 
Ibblebibble.....your post is the type of post that completely turns me off reading this website at all....no consideration or even thought put into your answer at all....not even thinking about the other persons point of view....let alone any debate worth consideration...
 
Cortez said:
Whilst I strongly agree that a lot of riding instruction leaves a great deal to be desired (I am being polite here...), I would think that any decent instructor would be teaching students to ride according to the established priciples of invisible aids, lightness, etc.

There is a vast difference between being "whip happy" and using a schooling whip as a training aid, just as there is a difference between "spurring" a horse and using spurs to communicate aids in a refined manner. They are tools, and like all tools can either be used to create art or in a crude, ignorant or even dangerous manner. The key is in the education and training of those who use them.
Click to expand...

That isn't my experience and I understand completely where PR is coming from. I tried a lot of supposedly decent instructors and I don't think they'd have known lightness if hit on the head with a brick. They also didn't teach the correct use of a whip as a tool that extends your arm and enables you to touch a horse to explain an aid when you can't reach with your hand. As soon as people start talking about giving a "smack" with a whip they've lost me because the subtlety is gone and the whip is being used as a blunt instrument.

I know it's not for everyone to attempt the discipline that PR refers to in riding and I entirely respect that. I don't think it's fair to ridicule someone though because they understand that there is more than one way to go about things.

People talk about situations on roads where horses need to respond. So, a smack or a "good belt" if the horse swings it's hindquarters out is maybe considered appropriate. Or - if the horse has been consistently ridden to respond and yield easily - a lift of the rein will bring the head around slightly and the hindquarters in. What I'm saying is that we all make our own choice about what is an acceptable amount of discomfort to cause a horse, but there's no reason to ridicule anyone about it.
 
Last edited:
Tinypony said:
That isn't my experience and I understand completely where PR is coming from. I tried a lot of supposedly decent instructors and I don't think they'd have known lightness if hit on the head with a brick. They also didn't teach the correct use of a whip as a tool that extends your arm and enables you to touch a horse to explain an aid when you can't reach with your hand. As soon as people start talking about giving a "smack" with a whip they've lost me because the subtlety is gone and the whip is being used as a blunt instrument.

This is also my view and experience. There are lots of coaches and trainers who no longer advocate the kick it swat it pull it method. It's quite heartening for me to see these views being expressed by so many people.
Click to expand...
 
sorry i havnt red the whole thread.....

I ride with a whip always, its a good aid when needed.

Saying that i can lose my temper, and if i feel myself getting annoyed or am already in a bad mood before i ride i either throw the whip down or dont ride with it, as the end result would be me killing said horse!! :p

Iv found it great for my current horse; he's a youngster which when i got him was TOTALLY dead to the leg, and 5 mins on him id be totally knackered! If you didnt keep at him every stride he wouyld just grind to a halt! i like reading up on things to give me any ideas; i decided to run with the kick, if no reaction, hit hard! and repeat untill the message sinks in! after afew sessions doing this (instead of just hitting and spurring mindlessly, and untimely!) he got the message! I do pole work and transitions ect also, its about using all your aids! But i was taught to ride with a whip, and used correctly they are very usefull.


(Again sorry for the spelling, I'm trying my best!)
 
BTK...you are in the right department but you are still shouting very loudly at your horse. ( forgive me if I misunderstood how you explained it) It's just as easy to teach him to respond to a very light squeeze as it is to a stout kick. I am taught that if the aid i give with my leg is visible to an onlooker that I have overdone it. It's also not necessary to hit it hard with the whip. I don't actually think that kicking a horses sides causes them too much pain. They will tighten up their muscles, just as you or I would if we were being thumped in the abdomen, and ignore it. Problem you may now have is that if the horse anticipates regular thumps to its side it will stay tense and will not relax and move correctly. Learn to whisper to him..it really does work.

I hack out on a friend's horse which expects to be kicked because thats whats always been done to ask it to move and keeping it in trot is very very tiring. I've just started to re educate him so fingers crossed. He's old but very smart so I'm hoping it'll work. Sadly his owner has a new young Arab which she also thumps in the side to get him moving. :(:(
 
TrasaM said:
BTK...you are in the right department but you are still shouting very loudly at your horse. ( forgive me if I misunderstood how you explained it) It's just as easy to teach him to respond to a very light squeeze as it is to a stout kick. I am taught that if the aid i give with my leg is visible to an onlooker that I have overdone it. It's also not necessary to hit it hard with the whip. I don't actually think that kicking a horses sides causes them too much pain. They will tighten up their muscles, just as you or I would if we were being thumped in the abdomen, and ignore it. Problem you may now have is that if the horse anticipates regular thumps to its side it will stay tense and will not relax and move correctly. Learn to whisper to him..it really does work.

I hack out on a friend's horse which expects to be kicked because thats whats always been done to ask it to move and keeping it in trot is very very tiring. I've just started to re educate him so fingers crossed. He's old but very smart so I'm hoping it'll work. Sadly his owner has a new young Arab which she also thumps in the side to get him moving. :(:(
Click to expand...


yes i dont want to over do it on the kicks and hits as you say, but i had tried nicely nicely for a couple months and he was completely ignoring me! im not having to be as hard on him now as he knows he has to respect me! a couple lessons of kick , whip approach and he is a different horse! My aim is to have him responding to the slightest movement eventaully. I asked a few instructors also, and they both agreed he was testing me, and to be hard on him. Of cause i praise him when he does good, and lives like a king!

I Liked when Oilver Townend said at his last tour! (he always wears spurs, and uses then hard!) He said for all we do, and spend on them its not much to ask for abit of hard work 1hour aday!

Im at the point now, i dont need spurs anymore and i use the whip a couple times just as a reminder its there.
 
Billy the kid- just to give you my daughters thoughts on ponies like your horse. She's 7 btw, but ridden regularly from almost birth, & never on typical kids kick along types, she's used to responsive ponies, although I do challenge her now. She recently rode a pony very similar to yours, regular rider does same as you. Except pony club kicks not spurs. And being older, its far more ingrained. Daughter wouldn't know where to start with a pc kick, & never rode with a whip. Her aids on said pony got zilch response. She was clearly thinking about how to proceed, then said 'mummy, can you canter past please?' Pony walked slightly more forward. 'do it again mummy'. Next time she got a pretty decent walk. Within 10 mins it was trotting nicely along. I later asked her what she'd do long term if she had to school it. She said she'd get it moving all the time, not just riding. When it was moving on its way to a feed, she'd teach it that walk meant forwards walk, not slow coach. And she'd ride it with me, & when it trotted, she'd teach it trot on with a voice command. Then when it moved forwards always, she'd teach it nice squeezes, just like a young pony. Now she's 7, so its not a plan she's learnt from her own vast experience. It's just because that's more my way, than kicking & hitting, & she's thought about it from a different angle. And I have done the same with other dead to the leg horses, it does actually work. Get him thinking forwards, rather than trying to physically move him forwards.
 
I would be intrigued as to whether anyone using a whip had tried natural horsemanship and then gone back to using a whip,spurs etc

It depends what people mean by 'tap' I had an instructor that what she called a tap was a whack, if I had hit her like that with the whip and said I was just tapping her im sure she would disagree.

I think alot of it is lack of education on their being other ways.
Others seem totally fixed on traditionalism and like their horses to be 'lively and wild' which to me translates as they like their horse to 'misbehave' to show everyone else what a courageous and skilled rider they are to be able to 'handle' and stay on a horse/pony like that. Its not a 'bond' or relationship, its the equivalent of using a 'dangerous breed' dog as an extension or reflection of your ego and power you are wanting to thrust forward onto anyone who knows or sees you.

I always was given whips but was told off countless times for not using it, I was told to leave my college course if I was going to refuse to whip the horses.
I did end up leaving but not due to that. And I am glad I did because it opened me upto alot nicer world or learning horse behaviour and natural horsemanship, also equine communication and energy work with horses.

I realised that I could not whip horses or felt horrible doing so because I was picking up on their energy and in alot of cases the horses where ill, tired, didnt want to work. You dont have a bond or relationship with an animal if you dont listen to it and run it into the ground because you want to ride it. It is an honour and should be for a prey animal to let you sit on its back and listen to you.

I just see it like people smacking their children when the child hasnt done anything wrong or being a danger to itself, the parent is being controlling and demanding that the child do what it says without valuing a childs opinion because adults and especially HUMAN adults always know best.

The last riding school I worked at was a no whips allowed riding school, everytime I walk into traditional riding school(some more than others) I feel a huge wave of sadness coming from the horses and alot of the owners/riders are balls of nerves or balls of anger.
 
littlelegs said:
Billy the kid- just to give you my daughters thoughts on ponies like your horse. She's 7 btw, but ridden regularly from almost birth, & never on typical kids kick along types, she's used to responsive ponies, although I do challenge her now. She recently rode a pony very similar to yours, regular rider does same as you. Except pony club kicks not spurs. And being older, its far more ingrained. Daughter wouldn't know where to start with a pc kick, & never rode with a whip. Her aids on said pony got zilch response. She was clearly thinking about how to proceed, then said 'mummy, can you canter past please?' Pony walked slightly more forward. 'do it again mummy'. Next time she got a pretty decent walk. Within 10 mins it was trotting nicely along. I later asked her what she'd do long term if she had to school it. She said she'd get it moving all the time, not just riding. When it was moving on its way to a feed, she'd teach it that walk meant forwards walk, not slow coach. And she'd ride it with me, & when it trotted, she'd teach it trot on with a voice command. Then when it moved forwards always, she'd teach it nice squeezes, just like a young pony. Now she's 7, so its not a plan she's learnt from her own vast experience. It's just because that's more my way, than kicking & hitting, & she's thought about it from a different angle. And I have done the same with other dead to the leg horses, it does actually work. Get him thinking forwards, rather than trying to physically move him forwards.
Click to expand...



yes there are many ways of achieving the same thing, all horses are different.

He is forward now, so i achieved what i wanted.

Iv rode him in lessons, competion rings, fireworks going off, windy nights, ponies zippy about around him, no reaction what so ever! its just his temperment! I clipped him recently also, and most horses iv had always get a spring in there step after clipped.... billy...... nothing!! no change! not even one little buck!

im 24 BTW and have riden from almost birth.......
 
Last edited:
Billy the kid said:
yes i dont want to over do it on the kicks and hits as you say, but i had tried nicely nicely for a couple months and he was completely ignoring me! im not having to be as hard on him now as he knows he has to respect me! a couple lessons of kick , whip approach and he is a different horse!

Im at the point now, i dont need spurs anymore and i use the whip a couple times just as a reminder its there.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as a case of being nice or not nice. It's more about clarity and intent.
One of my first lessons with my trainer was a demonstration on teaching aids and getting the horse to understand what is being asked of it. To demonstrate what he meant he dropped his glove to the floor and asked for a walk..no response so tap tap..horse moves
2nd time..same but one tap horse moves..
3rd time ... Glove dropped and movement immediately.
This was his way of showing me about how the horse must understand what I am asking it to do and how quickly the response was required.


Littlelegs..you little girl sounds amazing and it's such a shame that more children do not have the chance to start their riding journey in the same way. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top