Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

[palo1]

Makes you wonder, if everyone is hunting according to law, why they train the hounds on fox scent. You'd think they'd use something distinctive from a fox and strong enough to keep them on the correct trail, surely? They've certainly had long enough to have several generations of new hounds being trained to follow a different scent. Would certainly reduce potential for 'accidents'...

I think the answer to this is that those people who hunt see it as an intrinsically cultural activity and have never wanted to extinguish the fox-hound's innate relationship to the fox. It is hard for many people to understand but for those who were involved in fox hunting, it felt like an absolutely central part of their way of life and the fox/foxhound relationship symbolised that. For many, the fox hound has the same cultural value as any rare breed/pedigree animal that has been selectively bred for certain traits etc. Imagine the outcry if you tried to remove the red coat of Hereford Cattle or the domestic cat's desire to catch birds - different groups of people would have very strong views about it and many would do their damnedest to maintain what they saw as having 'integrity'. It has been extraordinarily difficult for those people involved in hunting to accept that this activity is gone. There are a number of arguments supporting fox hunting - one of them is about culture and heritage and is very entwined with countryside management. With many people who hunt post-ban there is still a very strong cultural and practical relationship with the fox as an animal. In a similar way, how can you extricate the Maasai from their cattle and various management practices? You could change some of those practices but culturally it would be very, very difficult to extricate that symbolic animal from their culture as it is so embedded. The hunting people in Britain may be a minority but that does not mean that their culture within that minority is not strong.

 

[Tiddlypom]

From the pro hunting ‘This is Hunting UK’ FB page.

‘So from the lowest possible place that Hunting could ever have found itself in, we now have to go out and build public confidence in a way that none of us have ever witnessed before’.

https://www.facebook.com/1645267549093974/posts/2319287581691964

It’s pay back time. Too many of the hunting fraternity have not give a sh1t what the public think up to now, and have carried on with their boorish and illegal behaviour, thinking that they are above the law.

It’s a shame for those who have tried to obey the post ban trail hunting rules, you can blame those who haven’t.

 

[Clodagh]

That is very well put. I think they have a mountain to climb. I strongly feel that most of the British public don't lose any sleep one way or the other about hunting, and that is a saving grace for hunting! It has been bought to the attention of a lot of people now and as you can see on this thread it has done so in an appallingly negative way.
I don't want to hunt any more, if I didn't live in Essex I might do so but I don't find any pleasure in it now round here. It has a place, especially in the Lake District and on Exmoor.
I don't want it banned completely but the hunts really do need to stop shooting themselves in the foot. Not just with this current hoo hah but all the petty irritations - trespass, blocking roads, trampling cut verges, scaring stock, behaving arrogantly and all the other ways they set out to sabotage any goodwill.

 

[Nasicus]

I think the answer to this is that those people who hunt see it as an intrinsically cultural activity and have never wanted to extinguish the fox-hound's innate relationship to the fox. It is hard for many people to understand but for those who were involved in fox hunting, it felt like an absolutely central part of their way of life and the fox/foxhound relationship symbolised that. For many, the fox hound has the same cultural value as any rare breed/pedigree animal that has been selectively bred for certain traits etc. Imagine the outcry if you tried to remove the red coat of Hereford Cattle or the domestic cat's desire to catch birds - different groups of people would have very strong views about it and many would do their damnedest to maintain what they saw as having 'integrity'. It has been extraordinarily difficult for those people involved in hunting to accept that this activity is gone. There are a number of arguments supporting fox hunting - one of them is about culture and heritage and is very entwined with countryside management. With many people who hunt post-ban there is still a very strong cultural and practical relationship with the fox as an animal. In a similar way, how can you extricate the Maasai from their cattle and various management practices? You could change some of those practices but culturally it would be very, very difficult to extricate that symbolic animal from their culture as it is so embedded. The hunting people in Britain may be a minority but that does not mean that their culture within that minority is not strong.

Sorry, but that's kind of a weak argument specifically against training the hounds on a non-fox scent. They're not supposed to be hunting foxes. It's against the law, so why train them on the scent of something you're not supposed to be hunting for any reasons besides having an 'oopsie whoopsie guess they caught a fox scent' moment?

However, I will agree with you on this one:

It has been extraordinarily difficult for those people involved in hunting to accept that this activity is gone.

 

[Ridererror]

The people involved in hunting (drag hunting, bloodhounding, trail hunting, beagling) truly do come from all walks of life and I have found it fascinating to ponder on the on-going moral issue around hunting (and wildlife management, conservation, rewilding and agriculture) whilst discussing with doctors, vets, policemen, teachers, plumbers, farm labourers, farmers, chefs, nurses, supermarket cashiers, charity workers, conservationists, horse trainers etc. It is hard to reconcile some of those individuals (and myself actually) and their professional roles and responsibilities with the idea that these are cruel, ignorant and immoral people. There are bad people in every walk of life of course but the issue around cruelty and illegality in hunting often gets directly linked to specific 'values'. To me, these values (usually of cruelty, ignorance, arrogance, immorality) are at odds with many of the values explicitly needed in a professional role for many participants so that immediately presents a huge level of cultural dissonance.

It is common to hear of hunts trespassing or presenting an arrogance or illegality in their behaviour yet the truth is sometimes quite a distance from the public presentation. I know of incidents where people have been outraged by the presence of the hunt on 'their' land or nearby yet in reality the owner of the land has given express permission for the hunt.

I have also seen passers-by or hunt monitors completely, totally and often deliberately misinterpret a situation. One example of this is a huntsman seen crouching along the treeline of a wood at the edge of a field as a fox walks cautiously toward him. Hounds are following a scent in the wood itself and a couple of hounds are casting for a scent just near the huntsman. They are busy and have not seen the fox which is very close by!

The huntsman is crouched so that he does not disturb the fox from what it is doing (this would reflect traditional practices and a huntsman's understanding of how foxes behave) He doesn't call hounds, just crouches very, very quietly. What people see in this situation would almost entirely depend on their perspective: a monitor may see that the huntsman is trying to encourage the fox to either break cover so that he can call hounds onto it or that he is hoping that fox will turn into the wood so that hounds can pick up the scent. A traditional hunts person might see that the huntsman is simply allowing a fox to make it's own decision and hounds the same or that the huntsman thinks hounds are on a particular scent in the wood and does not wish to disrupt them. In the post ban era some viewers might also see that the huntsman believes that hounds are hunting a line in the wood and he deliberately does not wish to call their attention to a fox very close by.

Who is right? Well it seems like it would depend on what you want to think and post on social media to me. This is only one example of course and there are many ways in which opposing opinions will never share common ground.

Thank you for your detailed response. And I take on board everything you are saying.

But you certainly seem pro hunt. What I would like to see is the completely unbias opinion of someone seeing "what goes on" first hand and for the first time without any preconceptions. Though I don't think this is possible as almost everyone is swayed (even those who don't give it much thought) one way or the other in light of many factors - what they have seen on SM, what their background is, opinions of family/peers etc etc

That said as I previously posted I have been seriously thinking about trying some Autumn hunting this coming season and have been in touch with the secretary so looks like I will be finding out for myself.

I suppose I owuld consider myself quite impartial. I don't feel particularly strongly either way

 

[Orchard14]

Equally, I know first hand of many incidents of the local pack trespassing on land that they have been specifically told to keep off by the farmer. Eg a former equine vet of mine, whose husband is a farmer. The hunt were told they could cross most of his land, but absolutely not certain parts of it, for perfectly good farming reasons. So the field trashed over the land that they were told to keep off. The farmer saw them and had a right set to with them, while his wife, who recognised some of her clients in the field, hid in an outbuilding.

Many local farmers have similar tales to tell of trespass.

YEP! This has been an ongoing problem for my family as farmers and land owners. We had hounds running around our horses paddocks at our home farm last season. This certain hunt should have been nowhere near them as our land is private for some 60 acres prior to reaching our horses. Mum hunted a lot in her youth and my parents did allow them to ride over a section of our land but we stopped that as they frequently diverted from their set path and gates/fences were being broken and unreported or paid for. The memo obviously hasn't reached them because we have had to chase them off our land a few times since. Mum has cancelled her hunting subscription she says it's all turned to a bloomin' s**t show. I was never fussed about hunting either way but I did go a few times when I was young, I don't have any interest in going again.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Anyone got a link to any recent statement by the MFHA about the South Herefordshire hunt atrocities? I can find links to 2016 reports of when they were setting up an investigation:-

The inquiry will be chaired by The Rt Hon. Sir John Chadwick — a former Appeal Court Judge — and will include Bill Andrewes, an experienced former master and hunt chairman, and Pauline Tolhurst BVSc, MRVCS, a practising veterinary surgeon.”

Read more at https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...mfha-investigation-544226#wCKTobeqeWWM7Lfy.99

I can find other reports of this enquiry being set up, but not of their findings.

 

[Antw23uk]

I went 'cubbing' last year which i assumed was just a hound exercise, bit boring, good for new and young horses and a place to catch up with friends and ride across land you arent normally allowed ... spent the whole morning standing round various parts of the country whilst they tried to flush foxes out for the hounds to kill ...... I joined the 'sport' because of the ban ... I wont be returning to be part of that again!

 

[ycbm]

[/QUOTE]

Anyone got a link to any recent statement by the MFHA about the South Herefordshire hunt atrocities? I can find links to 2016 reports of when they were setting up an investigation:-

The inquiry will be chaired by The Rt Hon. Sir John Chadwick — a former Appeal Court Judge — and will include Bill Andrewes, an experienced former master and hunt chairman, and Pauline Tolhurst BVSc, MRVCS, a practising veterinary surgeon.”

Read more at https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...mfha-investigation-544226#wCKTobeqeWWM7Lfy.99

I can find other reports of this enquiry being set up, but not of their findings.

I am guessing that it will have had to have been halted until the criminal trial was complete?

 

[Tiddlypom]

If looking for pro hunting comment on the trial and the guilty verdicts, I’d expect to look to the MFHA and to Horse and Hound magazine in the first instance. The H&H comment is still hidden behind the VIP paywall, although most of the rest of its news content is freely available. I can’t find anything from the MFHA.

However, the Countryside Alliance has put up a statement by its CE, Tim Bonner, on the CA Hunting FB page:-

Tim Bonner, chief executive of the Countryside Alliance said: “The cruelty and stupidity of what went on at the South Herefordshire kennels is plain to see. It is incumbent on everyone involved in hunting to ensure that this sort of behaviour never happens again, because one such stupid act reflects on every other hunt in the country however well they are run.
“The actions of Paul Oliver were completely disgraceful and have no place in hunting. Such behaviour is totally unacceptable in hunt kennels or anywhere else. Those who work in hunting know that their activity attracts more scrutiny than almost any other, and that standards in kennels and the field must therefore be impeccable.“

 

[palo1]

Thank you for your detailed response. And I take on board everything you are saying.

But you certainly seem pro hunt. What I would like to see is the completely unbias opinion of someone seeing "what goes on" first hand and for the first time without any preconceptions. Though I don't think this is possible as almost everyone is swayed (even those who don't give it much thought) one way or the other in light of many factors - what they have seen on SM, what their background is, opinions of family/peers etc etc

That said as I previously posted I have been seriously thinking about trying some Autumn hunting this coming season and have been in touch with the secretary so looks like I will be finding out for myself.

I suppose I owuld consider myself quite impartial. I don't feel particularly strongly either way

Ridererror - to be perfectly transparent I am pro-hunting. I have also been anti-hunting and totally ambivalent to the whole thing over the last 30 years. In many ways I am a very unlikely supporter of hunting yet I do now support hunting in both it's traditional and the current form. I have categorically NOT seen the cruelty or law breaking that others report and I don't see myself as being particularly naive. I am aware that incidents of real trespass do occur - by hounds and by the field and that is invariably a mistake with regard to who is the current owner or tenant of that ground OR a genuine cock-up. I have not seen the kinds of mayhem oft reported where stock is upset, livery yard owners angry and distraught, horses running amok with excitement or domestic pets being harrassed, injured or killed. I truly haven't - neither when I hunted as a child (fox hunting pre-ban and just doing what my mates were doing) nor as an adult (post ban). Perhaps I have been very lucky: the vast majority of my experiences have been very orderly and just exactly as you would hope: an autumn or winter day out in the country on a horse following hounds who are on a scent of something you never see!! I have seen foxes quite often - almost always heading in a different direction. I have seen regular trespass by hunt monitors, walkers etc too but 2 wrongs don't make a right of course. In relation to what happened in South Hereford kennels, I find it genuinely sickening and completely contradictory to any kind of hunting code of conduct or anything to do with my own experience. I have my own good reasons for supporting hunting but I wouldn't force my views on anyone. Thankfully we live in a country where we are free to disagree and choose how we live our lives and realise our values.

 

[Leo Walker]

I dont ride and consequently dont hunt but have always been very pro hunting. Having just watched the video of the Kimblewick which is one of my local hunts and the only one I have had any involvement with, I'm done. I've come out of the group which is a shame as I loved seeing the pictures, but I refuse to condone anyone or anything that will do what they were videoed doing.

 

[Clodagh]

I dont ride and consequently dont hunt but have always been very pro hunting. Having just watched the video of the Kimblewick which is one of my local hunts and the only one I have had any involvement with, I'm done. I've come out of the group which is a shame as I loved seeing the pictures, but I refuse to condone anyone or anything that will do what they were videoed doing.

I just watched the video - had they dug it out or taken it from a 'bag'? Neither are legal now but bolting a fox to be hunted again used to be legal. Hunting a 'bagged' fox always was illegal.

 

[Nudibranch]

One hunt not far from here has seen prosecutions for keeping/breeding foxes for release. Very sporting.

I am neither anti nor pro, and have hunted, on the basis that they never caught anything. However a couple of years ago I witnessed foxes being released into a walled wood very close to my house on the morning of a meet. It's "known" that hunting is not within the law round here but equally we are generally too far out for the sabs to bother. Hunting itself I have no issue with but the deliberate capture, keeping or breeding of foxes is utterly reprehensible. And it does happen more than as rogue occasional acts like this, despite the deniers. I have seen it.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

I think this is a disgusting act and most people in the hunting community feel the same.
Or that's definitely the thoughts of those I have been around.

I worked at a hunt kennels at the time this story first broke (2016) and can assure you that every one there were indisgusted by what had gone on and said he deserved to have the book thrown at him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I am aware that incidents of real trespass do occur - by hounds and by the field and that is invariably a mistake with regard to who is the current owner or tenant of that ground OR a genuine cock-up.

Invariably a mistake? You’re not from Cheshire, then? Sadly the local hunt have, over a long period of time, not given a flip whose land they cross or whether they have permission to be on it, as long as they stay with hounds.

The season just gone, they were so closely sabbed and monitored that they couldn’t move a muscle without being filmed and/or tracked. They have brought it on themselves.

ETA And I used to hunt frequently pre ban in the West Country, so I am familiar with hunting protocol and procedures. The packs I went with would never have behaved in a such a rude fashion. There are bad lots out there in the hunting fraternity. It is up to the hunting fraternity to weed them out, or they will bring you all down.

 

[babymare]

Ok I understand foxes need to be controlled humanely. I really do. Now I'm i lover of the drag hunts. Etc. My question is how can a hunt person who supposedly loves the countryside do something liken to bull figtening bear baiting. Dog fightening. I'm so glad this hunt as been closed. Now the hunt fraternity have to watch very hard what their people do.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A longer and more detailed video from the Hunt Investigation Team, who caught out the South Herefordshire Hunt. Why did this take three years to come to court?

https://www.facebook.com/1631457820452142/posts/2332302677034316

 

[Nudibranch]

That video is just appalling.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

That video is just appalling.

I couldn't watch more than about a minute of it, I was welling up watching the fox thrash around on the end of the rope. These people are complete barbarians.

 

[Sandstone1]

If thats the only hunt that does such things I'd be surprised.

 

[Orchard14]

I couldn't watch more than about a minute of it, I was welling up watching the fox thrash around on the end of the rope. These people are complete barbarians.

I can't even bring myself to press the play button so you did better than me. I'm absolutely horrified and disgusted by the very thought of their actions. A very lenient sentence if you ask me, I wish the judge would have thrown the book at them. Utterly despicable.

 

[Archangel]

That video is horrific.

The report says that someone else on the estate 'found' the cubs and gave them to the hunt. He thought they would be released back into the wild so the charges against him were dropped.

You can't imagine anyone believing that story can you.

Quoting myself here ... just realised the person from the estate was the TERRIER MAN - FFS - how can anyone on the planet, let alone a judge/jury, imagine for one second that a terrier man would think the foxes would be returned to the wild. How the hell did he get away with that.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

I wonder if the hunting community that has condemned the actions of these oxygen thieves will publicly thank the hunt monitors for providing the video evidence and sharing it with the police? No thought not.

 

[Sandstone1]

I wonder if the hunting community that has condemned the actions of these oxygen thieves will publicly thank the hunt monitors for providing the video evidence and sharing it with the police? No thought not.[/QUOT
well done to the hunt monitors for bringing this to light.
As ive always thought before why do the hunting community worry so much about the monitors if they have nothing to hide?
Im sure that a lot more of this sort of thing goes on than people know.
Hunting foxes with hounds is not legal so why should it be allowed to continue?
The arrogant entitled attitude of some just goes to show they think they can do as they like.
The people involved her should have gone to prison.

 

[Tiddlypom]

An addition to the traditional hunt servants’ equipment of old. A black bin bag in your pocket to put the dead fox in after one of those pesky ‘oopsie whoopsie’ moments that has been observed by antis.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=320795958871909

 

[palo1]

I wonder if the hunting community that has condemned the actions of these oxygen thieves will publicly thank the hunt monitors for providing the video evidence and sharing it with the police? No thought not.

It's extremely unlikely that the hunting community will thank the hunt monitors but primarily because of the dire relationship between hunting and anti-hunt protesters! No one involved in any kind of legal hunting wants or needs this taint on their community or what is suspected in other areas. I don't know anyone involved in hunting that thinks this is anything other than vile, appalling cruelty either and it's not clear to me why anyone would choose to behave in this way when in fact they can still drag hunt, trail hunt, bloodhound etc perfectly legally and respectably. In my experience hunting monitors are well tolerated where this is the case: that is the experience I have. I am aware of hunting monitors/sabs that behave appallingly and are responsible for actions that have seen them in court also and this won't help relations between the two sides. Two wrongs never make a right. The whole thing is just grim and very sad.

 

[Fellewell]

Unfortunately, the tiny minority of people who get perverse pleasure from animal cruelty will inevitably be attracted to take up occupations where there are opportunities to be cruel to animals without it being noticed and/or condemned. Some will end up working in slaughterhouses, others as hunt staff. Of course that doesn't mean that all hunt staff or abattoir workers are depraved - but it suggests that more rigorous safeguards need to be put in place (e.g. CCTV).

Let's not forget so-called animal sanctuaries and the woeful ignorance of pet/horse owners inflicting cruelty on a daily basis. Take it to the wider community; trained nurses shouldn't harm tiny babies and football coaches should protect their young players. There are rogues everywhere.
If hunts had the time/inclination to film/monitor sabs we would have plenty of opportunity to be disgusted by sabbing behaviour. Let's not pretend this is all one-sided.

 

[Sandstone1]

Let's not forget so-called animal sanctuaries and the woeful ignorance of pet/horse owners inflicting cruelty on a daily basis. Take it to the wider community; trained nurses shouldn't harm tiny babies and football coaches should protect their young players. There are rogues everywhere.
If hunts had the time/inclination to film/monitor sabs we would have plenty of opportunity to be disgusted by sabbing behaviour. Let's not pretend this is all one-sided.

i dont think its one sided. Ive no doubt that there is bad behaviour by monitors on occasion.
However, too wrongs dont make a right and however you try to justify it by bringing up other actions of cruelty and bad behaviour this sort of thing cant and wont be tolerated.
The camera doesnt lie and in this day and age with camera phones and go pros etc its much easier to catch this sort of thing.
There is absolutely no justification for cruelty like this.
Its time fox hunting was completely banned in the same way as bear baiting, cock fighting and the like.

 

[ycbm]

Let's not forget so-called animal sanctuaries and the woeful ignorance of pet/horse owners inflicting cruelty on a daily basis. Take it to the wider community; trained nurses shouldn't harm tiny babies and football coaches should protect their young players. There are rogues everywhere.
If hunts had the time/inclination to film/monitor sabs we would have plenty of opportunity to be disgusted by sabbing behaviour. Let's not pretend this is all one-sided.

Two wrongs don't make a right and sabbing will stop when people stop hunting foxes!

I have never heard a worse argument in support of hunting than 'trained nurses sometimes harm tiny babies' and 'football coaches sometimes sexually assault boys'. What planet are you on to think of making such an odious comparison to justify your activities?!?





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