Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

[Clodagh]

Foxhunting packs - by and large - are trail hunting. It's a bit different to drag hunting because people who went foxhunting generally preferred the longer days and slower pace. Drag huting was always seen as those who liked a fast point with plenty of jumping and not much time standing around, gossiping with friends and occasionally pulling out the flask. So trails tend to be more circular, over more varied terrain - and the whole day lasts longer. Obviously there CAN be accidents if hounds get a bit too far fom the huntsman and find a trail for themselves. But sometimes these claims of hounds killing foxes are made up!

View attachment 33581

I wonder what it dies of? Possibly stress/exhaustion? Or it wasn't a fox they took from in front of hounds, but surely the hunt must have known they took one and the sabs were unlikely to substitute a body from a non hunted fox.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

Exactly. They are a different kettle of fish. Drag hunts may not get sabbed but law abiding trail hunts still do.
My local pack are perfectly legal, and the hounds are well trained. If the sabs had done their homework they would have known we had not caught a fox for 5 seasons, yet we still had trouble and bullying from them.
They dont care about protecting animals, they care about causing trouble. Nothing else. I don't believe for one second sabbing would stop, even if all hunts switched to drag hunting. It's a class war. Foxes are just the front they hide behind.

I think this comment just goes to show the level of distrust the general public has towards hunts. Your hunt may do everything perfectly legally, but just because you and it say so that doesn't mean that the public believe it. Re the class war comment, if this were solely the case then why don't sabs/class warriors turn up to dressage competitions, three day events and big show jumping venues? Equestrian sports tend to be thought of as elitist and snobby. Funny how a few of the pro-hunt people here are trying to deflect the attention away from the issue in hand (ie the title of the thread and the video evidence) by shining the light on sabs, given that sabs weren't mentioned or involved in the business of the South Herefordshire hunt and it's vile goings-on.

 

[Tiddlypom]

E_D, I’m impressed that your trail pack has not had a kill in 5 years, it shows that it can be done. Unfortunately, there are too many packs who are deliberately hunting fox whilst also declaring that they are ‘trail hunting’, and you have got caught up in the flak.

I also have no time for sabs. I have had the dubious pleasure of witnessing the infamous ‘Stockport massive’ in action here. Even the non violent and non abusive sabs are muddying the water by interfering with the hunt by using voice and horn calls etc, which confuses the hounds and anyway means that if a fox is killed, the hunt have an immediate cop out excuse.

The smart money is on the new breed of non violent monitors, who simply film but who don’t interfere. The clip shown above of the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale hounds chasing the fox through the graveyard is a great example - the camcorder was left running until right at the end when a monitor intervened to save the fox. Any hunt should welcome being monitored to show how they conduct their day - those hunts that don’t welcome them must have something to hide.

 

[palo1]

Palo, generally you talk a lot of sense but also you come out with some compete rubbish! The trouble is with the hunting debate is that there is so much propoganda on both sides, and sometimes you wonder if people really believe what they are writing.
I am not anti hunting, I would go if I didn't live in such a built up area BUT surely poiuytrewq is talking of the hollering and encouraging sounds that hunts do make to encourage the hounds. Though I say it myself I have got a helluva holloa and used to love being on point, watching the fox break cover and calling hounds on.
Pro hunters tend to get so patronising, and you haven't been so bad up to now.

Haha! Thanks for the honest response Clodagh I suppose I am bemused by the fact that as you say poiuytrewq probably experienced some hollering - there isn't much need of that these days and I understand that it is exactly that sort of thing that bothers monitors and sabs....so that is why it would seem odd to me. Hollering is part of the past. Also, not sure that I would call hollering 'jeering' but that is just semantics...

 

[palo1]

It has been banned but it has not stopped. It is well known that many hunts are still openly hunting fox, especially if they hunt weekdays.

Until hunting foxes is stopped, sabbing will continue. When it stops they'll move to shooting and if they are genuine animal lovers and not just class warriors, on to fishing.

Drags hunts have only ever been sabbed very occasionally and by mistake. Stop ALL hunts hunting fox and the sab problem wil fade away.

Start tomorrow by insisting that from now on all trails are to be laid strong and without fox scent, and all packs taught the recall levels found with drag packs.




Urban foxes have existed in big numbers for at least forty years. They are not a reason to support fox hunting with hounds.

Urban foxes are not snared. Whoever set them would be lynched by the local cat owners. They aren't shot in their urban environment either.

In this area, they are trapped and released by the RSPCA into sheep farming country, where they are noticeable by their lack of fear of humans and their enormous size. They are shot within days of release because they take lambs.

The RSPCA ought to shoot them themselves, but the public would stop donating funds if they did, so they can't.





Snares are utterly disgusting and should have been banned along time ago.




.

Mmm well they are not all shot within days - some go on to be a nuisance for quite some time but the glampers and tourists generally round here like them and often feed them. That certainly annoys locals who have chickens and those with new lambs in the season.

 

[palo1]

My question was about why certain urban foxes are trapped and released - sorry if I wasn't clear. Are these individuals trapped because they are a specific nuisance? How does this square with what I quoted previously in this (https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/thoughts-south-herefordshire-hunt.777004/post-14024588) post?

I have to say trapping and releasing in the country sounds a very misguided policy to me. Much better to shoot them if this it is really necessary to get rid of them.

Well quite, but many people who request that their urban foxy neighbour is moved on do NOT want to consider that this will result in their death. So the simple thing to do is just trap and release elswhere. For some of my neighbours this is viewed as no better than fly-tipping as it results in dead chickens, spilt bins etc etc.

 

[fburton]

I've no idea FB. All I know is that in I live near a small market town, and every lambing season the RSPCA release/dump a number of foxes near a tiny nearby village. Word goes around, the shooters sit out for a couple of nights, and they're all shot within a week of release. They have no idea about the danger of being near man, or how to hunt anything but the easiest of prey (newborn lamb).

I assume they have been reported as a nuisance down in town or nearby towns, and trapped.

They are extraordinarily huge!..

As it happened, I saw an urban fox trotting across the road with what looked like a rat in its mouth only 20 minutes after I posted.

Releasing trapped urban foxes in the country seems to be a big mistake. I'd like to know which councils are doing it. It really needs to stop.

On the other hand, I think the default policy is and should be just to leave urban foxes alone. I'm not sure what constitutes "a nuisance" or where the threshold for taking action ought to be. There are plenty of foxes where I live (West End of Glasgow) and as far as I can tell they co-exist quite peacefully alongside people. Occasionally I will notice the pungent smell of fox outside my front door, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest - at least it's not as bad as a poultry farm. Foxes are much less of a nuisance to me personally than birds that crap on my car - seagulls are the worst, have you seen the size of their poos?! Can I ask Glasgow City Council to get rid of the shitty birds?

 

[fburton]

Well quite, but many people who request that their urban foxy neighbour is moved on do NOT want to consider that this will result in their death.

Do many people request this? I'd love to see the statistics. Maybe education and sensible measures to avoid nuisance scenarios is the answer.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I wonder what it dies of? Possibly stress/exhaustion? Or it wasn't a fox they took from in front of hounds, but surely the hunt must have known they took one and the sabs were unlikely to substitute a body from a non hunted fox.

A couple of people 'in the know' believe it was fresh road kill and that IS most likely. I saw a few foxes killed by hounds back when it was legal - hell, one was killed right in front of a Labor MP I was showing foxhunting too (obviously on foot.) Only 6 hounds after it - the rest were on another one - and the whipper-in was trying to call them off (heading towards a road - and a good pack shouldn't split!) It sure wasn't exhausted and would probably have got away except road traffic diverted it and 5 hounds ran straight over it. The last hound grabbed it and it was dead immediately - it was so fast you'd have missed it if you blinked. Whip was right there within a few seconds, leapt off his horse and grabbed it. It LOOKED (we were about 30 yards away) TOTALLY intact - not a drop of blood. (Not quite as the Labour MP described it on radio a few days later, lol.) Of course, if whip hadn't been so quick the other hounds (who had realised it was 'gone) would have probably shredded it (some packs do - some lose interest in a dead fox very quickly.)

 

[littleshetland]

I can see your point. I think that in hunting the fox does get a chance to get away, it involves a level of skill. There is no skill in that video.

Oh Please!! they block coverts, and then send down the terriers. Foxes stand NO chance at all. It is not 'sport' - it is blood lust.

 

[littleshetland]

There is a new skill in hunting since the ban.

It's laying a trail which will comply with the law, yet is so weak that the hounds will pick up fox and follow that 'by mistake'.

And strangely, although foxhounds often find fox scent when drag hunting, and are immediately called off, there doesn't seem to be the same level of recall in foxhounds which trail hunt.

Do you remember the attempt that the SNP scuppered to spite Cameron to make it legal to use more than two hounds to flush to a gun? If that had been passed, it would have become nigh-on impossible to convict anyone for hunting illegally as long as any member of the hunt was carrying a gun.


..

The trail that they lay is fox urine....

 

[fburton]

A couple of people 'in the know' believe it was fresh road kill and that IS most likely. I saw a few foxes killed by hounds back when it was legal - hell, one was killed right in front of a Labor MP I was showing foxhunting too (obviously on foot.) Only 6 hounds after it - the rest were on another one - and the whipper-in was trying to call them off (heading towards a road - and a good pack shouldn't split!) It sure wasn't exhausted and would probably have got away except road traffic diverted it and 5 hounds ran straight over it. The last hound grabbed it and it was dead immediately - it was so fast you'd have missed it if you blinked. Whip was right there within a few seconds, leapt off his horse and grabbed it. It LOOKED (we were about 30 yards away) TOTALLY intact - not a drop of blood. (Not quite as the Labour MP described it on radio a few days later, lol.) Of course, if whip hadn't been so quick the other hounds (who had realised it was 'gone) would have probably shredded it (some packs do - some lose interest in a dead fox very quickly.)

Is it still the case that far more foxes are killed on roads than by hunters/cullers?

 

[JanetGeorge]

One hunt was so set on getting the kill that it didn’t call hounds off even when the fox took them through a churchyard. Though of course, the hounds shouldn’t be chasing the fox anyway, should they, even if the vicar had given permission for hounds to come through the graveyard (she hadn’t). Another oopsie whoopsie captured on film, though this time the fox is believed to have escaped.
We all know that there are packs which flout the Hunting Act on a regular basis. Reform yourselves or pay the price
.

I could bore everyone to death by taking them through this glued together cuuple of clips to explain why your interpretation is incorrect. Most of the video - especially he first 3 minutes shows hounds meandering aroud looking for whatever they think they're meant to be following. A few hounds are shown 'hunting' a fox that's just jumped up on front of them - how a vixen could be identified from that bit as being 'heavily pregnant' OR 'nursing; I really don't know - sure didn'y look like either to me. I haven't seen any vixens in either state for sure - I have seen some that are thin - either old, mangey, or possibly nursing a biggish litter without philopatric friends. But from experience with bitches, I doubt anyone with good eyesight could confuse the heavily pregnant one with how she looks two weeks later (and that is with total nursing care from besotted owner.) Even the behaviour of hunt staff doesn't look like their intention is to hunt the unexpected fox.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Is it still the case that far more foxes are killed on roads than by hunters/cullers?

Probably. Foxhound packs were rarely in the 'best form of control. group on numbers alone except perhaps in very specific types of country where shooting a fox is harder. But judging on the number of foxes I now see on my farm as compared to the 'old' days, I'd say it is now the shooters competing with road kill. (I have shoots on 3 boundaries - all with full-time gamekeepers and hear far more rifle shots at night.)

 

[ester]

did you watch it with the sound on JG?

 

[ycbm]

Mmm well they are not all shot within days - some go on to be a nuisance for quite some time but the glampers and tourists generally round here like them and often feed them. That certainly annoys locals who have chickens and those with new lambs in the season.

They are in my area. And if they aren't in yours it's because nobody is bothered enough by them to do it. They are sitting ducks with their lack of fear of man.


.

 

[palo1]

Yes, sitting ducks is about right: we have been riding and had the poor sods virtually walk up to us. The people that are most bothered by foxes here are farmers in the spring (new lambs - especially those lambing out or on the open hill) and conservationists as we are in an area where there are actually some curlews remaining, nesting and breeding. Homeowners with chickens are also bothered but most take sensible measures to keep their chooks safe. There are people who go out to shoot foxes for sure but we see desperately thin and sick foxes that are totally habituated to people on a quite regular basis. It is very sad. I know of, but don't know personally, those people who shoot the foxes wherever and whenever they can - including nursing vixens. It all seems a right mess to me.

 

[Equine_Dream]

I think this comment just goes to show the level of distrust the general public has towards hunts. Your hunt may do everything perfectly legally, but just because you and it say so that doesn't mean that the public believe it. Re the class war comment, if this were solely the case then why don't sabs/class warriors turn up to dressage competitions, three day events and big show jumping venues? Equestrian sports tend to be thought of as elitist and snobby. Funny how a few of the pro-hunt people here are trying to deflect the attention away from the issue in hand (ie the title of the thread and the video evidence) by shining the light on sabs, given that sabs weren't mentioned or involved in the business of the South Herefordshire hunt and it's vile goings-on.

We would be perfectly happy for members of the public or the sabs themselves to follow (peacefully) and observe how we work. We have nothing to hide. But no sabs would rather just scream insults at children than actually discover the truth.
I think hunting has always been perceived as the elite of the elite of equine sports. The stereotypical fat chap with a plumb in his mouth leading the field picking on poor innocent foxes. Yes hunting does have bad press because of viscous idiots like in the OP of this thread. But it does not mean all hunts or those who hunt act this way. The issues is that sabs are not interested in seeing that we are following the law.
Who is trying to deflect here? Myself and everyone else who you say is pro hunt have all commented several times on how utterly disgusted we are with what monitors discovered with the south herefordshire hunt 🤷‍♀️ threads evolve. Different topics get brought up.

 

[fburton]

Yes hunting does have bad press because of viscous idiots like in the OP of this thread.

Did you really mean to say this about Downton Dame?

 

[Orchard14]

Did you really mean to say this about Downton Dame?

I think she means the person(s) mentioned in OP's post not OP herself.

 

[Orangehorse]

As for urban foxes. Family member lives about 5/6 miles from a large new town, far enough away to be countryside, but easy to access and not too far.

Every so often they get urban foxes dumped that have no idea how to hunt and they soon either get shot or trapped by the farmer who has a large number of sheep. I don't know who traps them and takes them out into the country, but they aren't having a nice life in the countryside.

 

[fburton]

I think she means the person(s) mentioned in OP's post not OP herself.

Yes, that must be right. I missed the wee word "in". Apologies to Equine_Dream for my misinterpretation.

 

[Equine_Dream]

E_D, I’m impressed that your trail pack has not had a kill in 5 years, it shows that it can be done. Unfortunately, there are too many packs who are deliberately hunting fox whilst also declaring that they are ‘trail hunting’, and you have got caught up in the flak.

I also have no time for sabs. I have had the dubious pleasure of witnessing the infamous ‘Stockport massive’ in action here. Even the non violent and non abusive sabs are muddying the water by interfering with the hunt by using voice and horn calls etc, which confuses the hounds and anyway means that if a fox is killed, the hunt have an immediate cop out excuse.

The smart money is on the new breed of non violent monitors, who simply film but who don’t interfere. The clip shown above of the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale hounds chasing the fox through the graveyard is a great example - the camcorder was left running until right at the end when a monitor intervened to save the fox. Any hunt should welcome being monitored to show how they conduct their day - those hunts that don’t welcome them must have something to hide.

It's not easy but we do have very well trained hounds and our whips are very on the ball. We are so careful as so much of our hunting ground crosses land owners who would not welcome illegal hunting on their land. We have no desire to break thw law or upset land owners. We just want to continue to enjoy hunting as closely as possible to before the ban whilst staying in within the law.
Yes sadly it's a shame when that illegal hunts ruin it for the rest of us. I have no issue with peaceful monitors and would welcome them out in the field with us. There is no place for violent thugs on both sides of the argument and it's a shame sabs can't follow by monitors example.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Did you really mean to say this about Downton Dame?

😱 Sorry I'm sure DD is not viscous or an idiot 😂 I meant the evil people in the video of the OP. Apologies DD if it came across like I was directing that at you

 

[mini-eventer]

I had a horse that would have really benefited for a few days hunting so went recently with my local pack. Sadly although they initially give the talk about hunting within the law. It quickly became apparent that they were not.

I have never been particularly anti hunting even pre ban but this left me feel very uncomfortable. They were blatant and i wont be going back E_D I wish they were like your pack

 

[Tiddlypom]

I could bore everyone to death by taking them through this glued together cuuple of clips to explain why your interpretation is incorrect.

Please do. There has already been a thread about it on the hunting board. No one on there came up with a convincing explanation of what happened that wasn’t illegal hunting.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-hunt-bringing-hunting-into-disrepute.773619/

did you watch it with the sound on JG?

This.

 

[palo1]

As it happened, I saw an urban fox trotting across the road with what looked like a rat in its mouth only 20 minutes after I posted.

Releasing trapped urban foxes in the country seems to be a big mistake. I'd like to know which councils are doing it. It really needs to stop.

On the other hand, I think the default policy is and should be just to leave urban foxes alone. I'm not sure what constitutes "a nuisance" or where the threshold for taking action ought to be. There are plenty of foxes where I live (West End of Glasgow) and as far as I can tell they co-exist quite peacefully alongside people. Occasionally I will notice the pungent smell of fox outside my front door, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest - at least it's not as bad as a poultry farm. Foxes are much less of a nuisance to me personally than birds that crap on my car - seagulls are the worst, have you seen the size of their poos?! Can I ask Glasgow City Council to get rid of the shitty birds?

I don't think any council has a policy about trapping foxes: I am sure they are strapped enough for cash without that as well but it is entirely possible for people to employ private pest control to deal with foxes (as well as for rats - for whom no-one ever questions their mode of destruction).

 

[JanetGeorge]

did you watch it with the sound on JG?

No - I didn't dare with hubby trying to sleep in - and awake and in the room, it would probably p*** him off too. Hell, he even objects if I play music I like, lol. So it will have to wait until he is out of the house - then will certainly listen (horn calls might prove it one way or t'other - slthough the huntsman's posture in blowing suggested it was not a 'gerron and get it' type of instruction.)

 

[palo1]

I had a horse that would have really benefited for a few days hunting so went recently with my local pack. Sadly although they initially give the talk about hunting within the law. It quickly became apparent that they were not.

I have never been particularly anti hunting even pre ban but this left me feel very uncomfortable. They were blatant and i wont be going back E_D I wish they were like your pack

Sorry to hear this. I am interested to know how it was clear that illegal hunting was taking place as I am aware of just how difficult it is to identify that unless certain quite specific things happen and that you could be absolutely certain that these were intended, deliberate and illegal acts. As the hunting act stands, there is still a great deal that a hunt are able to do entirely within the law and in fact, only a huntsman or potentially whipper in can carry out an illegal fox hunting activity as they are in charge of hounds. Traditionally and often the case now, the field are not on the heels of a huntsman so it is very difficult to know exactly what is happening at times. This is a problem that has exercised hunt monitors, makes their work harder and also the reason that on occasions where it has gone to the police or court, neither side has felt that justice has been done. That is at least one reason why the Hunting Act is complete rubbish as a piece of legislation!!

 

[TTK]

I’m in prime hunting country, not a million miles from the former S Herefordshire. In season, I see illegal hunting all the time despite fine words at meets about hunting within the law. I used to be a supporter but they have worn out my tolerance with their hypocrisy.. sorry guys, the world has moved on.