Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

[JanetGeorge]

did you watch it with the sound on JG?

Finally got a chance to watch it with sound on - and to refresh my memory on all the horn calls used. Hounds were definitely NOT on the trail of a fox for the first 1+ minutes. Then a few DID hunt the line of a fox - and the rest of the pack were curious - but not higly motivated to get noses down! There was a short point - when huntsman used doubling to draw hounds towards him. And then the main note played was for stopping hounds. The huntsman's activities at the last point fox seen slipping away it was VERY definite that any hound who went past him was in trouble.

 

[palo1]

Thank you JanetGeorge for this

 

[ycbm]

Finally got a chance to watch it with sound on - and to refresh my memory on all the horn calls used. Hounds were definitely NOT on the trail of a fox for the first 1+ minutes. Then a few DID hunt the line of a fox - and the rest of the pack were curious - but not higly motivated to get noses down! There was a short point - when huntsman used doubling to draw hounds towards him. And then the main note played was for stopping hounds. The huntsman's activities at the last point fox seen slipping away it was VERY definite that any hound who went past him was in trouble.

Janet you seem to have missed somewhere the fact that these hounds should never have been in a graveyard, of all places they go when not allowed and trail hunting a trail deliberately laid too weak to hold them.

A graveyard, where people go to visit their dead loved ones.

 

[milliepops]

I’m in prime hunting country, not a million miles from the former S Herefordshire. In season, I see illegal hunting all the time despite fine words at meets about hunting within the law. I used to be a supporter but they have worn out my tolerance with their hypocrisy.. sorry guys, the world has moved on.

Same. I kept my horses in a popular bit of their country for years. Turning up in places they weren't supposed to be, on days they weren't expected...

 

[palo1]

Janet you seem to have missed somewhere the fact that these hounds should never have been in a graveyard, of all places they go when not allowed and trail hunting a trail deliberately laid too weak to hold them.

A graveyard, where people go to visit their dead loved ones.

You are right ycbm and most people would be pretty horrified to see the hunt in a graveyard. You just have to wonder wth??? However, that wasn't the point that JG was making. I think very few people would be able to interpret horn calls or hound music - though many will guess and speculate as to what the various calls and music means.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Janet you seem to have missed somewhere the fact that these hounds should never have been in a graveyard, of all places they go when not allowed and trail hunting a trail deliberately laid too weak to hold them.

A graveyard, where people go to visit their dead loved ones.

I really couldn't comment on those things because I don't know the facts. Where WAS the trail? Immediately over the road or on a neighbouring property?? Where were huntstaff when hounds entered a property where the trail would obviously not be? And did the monitors actually help encourage the hounds into such a place? Obviously, it shouldn't have happened - and hunt staff should have acted as quickly as possible to avert the embarrassment and any disturbance Obviously apologies would be needed to anyone who had been disturbed. (And how do you know a weak trail was laid??)

 

[JanetGeorge]

You are right ycbm and most people would be pretty horrified to see the hunt in a graveyard. You just have to wonder wth??? However, that wasn't the point that JG was making. I think very few people would be able to interpret horn calls or hound music - though many will guess and speculate as to what the various calls and music means.

It IS hard when you haven't hunted for a while - and some hunt followers never learn them. I had to listen to recordings of the different sounds to interpret what was being blown - although hounds' speed, voice, and noses up in the air told me quite a lot! And of course the huntsman's tone when he rated hounds made it VERY clear - he'd briefly lost control and he was having it back, or else!!

 

[Clodagh]

One hunt was so set on getting the kill that it didn’t call hounds off even when the fox took them through a churchyard. Though of course, the hounds shouldn’t be chasing the fox anyway, should they, even if the vicar had given permission for hounds to come through the graveyard (she hadn’t). Another oopsie whoopsie captured on film, though this time the fox is believed to have escaped.

I’m not sure really why I keep posting these videos. We all know that there are packs which flout the Hunting Act on a regular basis. Reform yourselves or pay the price.

I've actually just watched the video and it bought three thoughts to mind, God how much I used to love hunting - didn't hounds sound fantastic, and wonderful horn blowing.
Also, sabs always get the best videos as they don't mind if they turn the fox back towards hounds, something that any pro hunt person would hate to do, even 'back in the day'.
And in a rural churchyard probably 99% of the incumbents were enjoying it too, the 1% being the fox.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And of course the huntsman's tone when he rated hounds made it VERY clear - he'd briefly lost control and he was having it back, or else!!

This part? Is this the whipper in?



That looked like an ‘Oh sh1t the antis are here and filming us, I had better stop the hounds and be seen doing it’ moment to me.

So why were the hounds allowed to cast freely through the church yard when the hunt officials were so close? And apparently this is near the hunt kennels, so the hunt must have known the churchyard was there.

Yes I am rusty with horn calls, it is forty years since I was hunting regularly. The sound of hounds speaking still makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck, but those days are gone.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Ah yes - it IS the whipper in - looking at it in dribs and drabs I got that wrong. He MIGHT have been worried about the hunt monitors - but I thought they were the silent ones? Did he KNOW he was being filmed? The film really isn't very clear about where hunt staff were when hounds strayed. In fact, not very clear on anything as at least two cameras were involved and I suspect the editing was a bit random (stick 'what looks bad' to 'what looks bad' andhope no-one notices the lack of continuity.

 

[palo1]

I've actually just watched the video and it bought three thoughts to mind, God how much I used to love hunting - didn't hounds sound fantastic, and wonderful horn blowing.
Also, sabs always get the best videos as they don't mind if they turn the fox back towards hounds, something that any pro hunt person would hate to do, even 'back in the day'.
And in a rural churchyard probably 99% of the incumbents were enjoying it too, the 1% being the fox.

I have never much fancied the churchyard as an eternal resting place but if I thought that I could 'enjoy' hunting and hound music whilst I rested perhaps I might change my mind!! The sound of hound music is truly something else.

 

[ycbm]

I doubt very much that the flippant thoughts and total lack of concern by people about it being a graveyard would be shared by the relatives of anyone buried there. Particularly if they had been visiting that day.

I'm not religious in any way, but come on guys, it's not called consecrated ground for nothing.

You are confirming forum readers' prejudices that hunters don't give two hoots about anything but their own enjoyment.

.

 

[Fellewell]

It is well known that graveyards double as wild animal sanctuaries, I suspect a weak trail was laid but not by the hunt. Oh the irony, history has shown that so-called animal rights activists have no respect for the dead and buried!

 

[palo1]

I doubt very much that the flippant thoughts and total lack of concern by people about it being a graveyard would be shared by the relatives of anyone buried there. Particularly if they had been visiting that day.

I'm not religious in any way, but come on guys, it's not called consecrated ground for nothing.

You are confirming forum readers' prejudices that hunters don't give two hoots about anything but their own enjoyment.

.

Not sure where anyone has been particularly flippant ycbm but it's clearly not respectful to be doing any kind of hunting in a graveyard. I'm really not convinced that any hunt, no matter how arrogant and determined would do this deliberately however. The kind of hunting people that many find to be the 'worst' sort are almost invariably those that are very heavily connected to their community and would be absolutely in bad odour with their mates for this sort of thing. I have seen the film footage a number of times. It doesn't ring true to me tis all.

 

[mini-eventer]

Sorry to hear this. I am interested to know how it was clear that illegal hunting was taking place as I am aware of just how difficult it is to identify that unless certain quite specific things happen and that you could be absolutely certain that these were intended, deliberate and illegal acts. As the hunting act stands, there is still a great deal that a hunt are able to do entirely within the law and in fact, only a huntsman or potentially whipper in can carry out an illegal fox hunting activity as they are in charge of hounds. Traditionally and often the case now, the field are not on the heels of a huntsman so it is very difficult to know exactly what is happening at times. This is a problem that has exercised hunt monitors, makes their work harder and also the reason that on occasions where it has gone to the police or court, neither side has felt that justice has been done. That is at least one reason why the Hunting Act is complete rubbish as a piece of legislation!!

I went out a couple of times, mainly cubbing, fellow followers openly admitted it. I'm no expert on hunting terms but for example the field surround a Sugar beet field, hounds look for and flush fox out, followers around outside chase fox back in towards hounds and hunt staff, hounds kill fox. No attempt to call hounds off.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The trail that they lay is fox urine....

And where is this sourced?

I have no idea how my local pack purports to lay its 'trails', or with what scent, or where that scent is alleged to have came from. Is the trail laid by foot, by horse, by quad bike?

They are whingeing loudly that they are being harrassed by the monitors and the sabs, but why don't they reassure us all as to how they conduct their day, if they feel that they are so misunderstood? And how, when they send hounds into a covert to seek out a 'trail', they make every effort to not 'accidentally' come across a real fox which happens to be in the covert too, and kill it in a oopsie whoopsie moment? (See the bin bag fox clip in post #86).

 

[ester]

fox pee is easily available on the tinterweb. you can get it on amazon

 

[Clodagh]

And our local pack spread it soaked into rags tied to hunting whip thongs.

 

[Tiddlypom]

fox pee is easily available on the tinterweb. you can get it on amazon

Oh good grief, so you can! I can get 16oz of the stuff delivered by Friday for £30.99 with Amazon Prime! From 'wild meat fed red foxes'.

 

[Clodagh]

Oh good grief, so you can! I can get 16oz of the stuff delivered by Friday for £30.99 with Amazon Prime! From 'wild meat fed red foxes'.

I would rather be a hunted fox in the wild than a farmed fox having my pee collected. Poor beggars.

 

[ester]

Oh good grief, so you can! I can get 16oz of the stuff delivered by Friday for £30.99 with Amazon Prime! From 'wild meat fed red foxes'.

and this is your learning for today

 

[palo1]

I would rather be a hunted fox in the wild than a farmed fox having my pee collected. Poor beggars.

I wonder what reasons there are for harvesting fox pee? There surely can't be a supply that is dependent on hunting for it's trade.

 

[palo1]

And where is this sourced?

I have no idea how my local pack purports to lay its 'trails', or with what scent, or where that scent is alleged to have came from. Is the trail laid by foot, by horse, by quad bike?

They are whingeing loudly that they are being harrassed by the monitors and the sabs, but why don't they reassure us all as to how they conduct their day, if they feel that they are so misunderstood? And how, when they send hounds into a covert to seek out a 'trail', they make every effort to not 'accidentally' come across a real fox which happens to be in the covert too, and kill it in a oopsie whoopsie moment? (See the bin bag fox clip in post #86).

Hunts often provide information about the day: most hunts make a point of stating that they are hunting within the law and usually explain where they hope to set off in the day. For trail hunts that is probably as much as you will get, drag hunting might provide more info about the lines to be drawn and I have never been out with the bloodhounds (though it is on the list) - they are entirely dependent on the whims of their clean boot!! In my experience there is no difference to the day whether monitors make their presence felt or not though I have sat waiting for the monitors to get bored and leave as in places we have not wanted to irritate landowners that welcome the hunt but not their hangers on who are seen as trouble. Sabs and monitors can deliberately and also unwittingly cause trouble in a great many ways. It seems that they don't always understand the impact of their actions and how that affects how people see them.

Trails can be laid in a number of different ways on the same day. So it is possible to have a trail laid by foot, horse and quad. Whenever sabs and monitors complain that the huntsman doesn't know/can't show where the trail is they are utterly missing the point that that is generally the idea!! A good friend of mine has thoroughly enjoyed trail laying by running and by horse for both trail and drag hunting packs though with drag hunting the trail (or lines) are much, much more predictable as drag hunting slightly depends on everyone going really fast and including jumps in the day. Trail hunting is much more of a 'natural' experience for the hounds who have to work much harder to pick up the trail laid sometimes through dense cover, across streams etc.

It is an aside to this but I have to wonder on a regular basis why hunt sabs/monitors don't feel furious about terriers hunting rats. There are some quite upmarket pest control services that expressly offer this as a solution to a rat problem. Rats are incredibly intelligent social animals and suffer vilely from other pest control means (poison mostly). If it is ok to hunt rats with dogs.... If I were a rat, I would far prefer to die at the teeth of terriers than the ghastly slow death of poison or other means.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I would rather be a hunted fox in the wild than a farmed fox having my pee collected. Poor beggars.

Quite.

Live Collecting

1. Keep the domestic coyote or fox in a wire pen with access to food and water.
2. Place a metal tray under the pen for the collection of urine. Maintain a clean tray to ensure the purest possible quality of urine.
3. Drain the urine into a clean container for use or sale.

 

[ester]

I wonder what reasons there are for harvesting fox pee? There surely can't be a supply that is dependent on hunting for it's trade.

It's used for detering other mammals in gardens, rabbits, cats etc.

 

[JanetGeorge]

It's used for detering other mammals in gardens, rabbits, cats etc.

Mmmm- wonder if it would work on the damn grey squirrels I find partying around my strawberries?

 

[Clodagh]

It is an aside to this but I have to wonder on a regular basis why hunt sabs/monitors don't feel furious about terriers hunting rats. There are some quite upmarket pest control services that expressly offer this as a solution to a rat problem. Rats are incredibly intelligent social animals and suffer vilely from other pest control means (poison mostly). If it is ok to hunt rats with dogs.... If I were a rat, I would far prefer to die at the teeth of terriers than the ghastly slow death of poison or other means.

I agree with you here. Anyone who owns a terrier and finds a rat in their stable have probably quite often cheered the terrier on until it finds it and kills it, I am not sure why that is different. Even worse, I uncovered a nest of baby rats the other day and let my chickens eat them. (The chickens were standing by while I lifted up an ark).

 

[ycbm]

You can't see the difference between one or two terriers taking a rat in a stable yard and a pack of riders on horseback following a pack of hounds chasing fox across miles of countryside?

.

 

[ester]

TBF there are often many more terriers than one or two

 

[littleshetland]

And where is this sourced?

I have no idea how my local pack purports to lay its 'trails', or with what scent, or where that scent is alleged to have came from. Is the trail laid by foot, by horse, by quad bike?

They are whingeing loudly that they are being harrassed by the monitors and the sabs, but why don't they reassure us all as to how they conduct their day, if they feel that they are so misunderstood? And how, when they send hounds into a covert to seek out a 'trail', they make every effort to not 'accidentally' come across a real fox which happens to be in the covert too, and kill it in a oopsie whoopsie moment? (See the bin bag fox clip in post #86).

One of the hunt servants local to me told me. When I asked why, I was told that 'When they repeal this ridiculous law, our hounds will be ready to go!' Local gossip has it, that they keep some captive fox (es) at the kennels to keep them supplied. To be honest, this wouldn't surprise me at all....