To hard to accecpt ????

[Dry Rot]

(Snipped)

In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??

And you are absolutely right! At least, I think so.

But in the JFTD example, I assume you have your horse in a head collar with a lead rope? To a correctly trained horse, a light tug should be sufficient compulsion, but compulsion it is so don't be fooled or you wouldn't need either. I can send my older GSD into the kennel by moving a finger half an inch, but don't think for one moment that there isn't any compulsion there.

For example, I believe most of the loading problems are caused by those who believe that a refusal to load can be overcome by brute force. Sometimes, they have to be and brute force is the only way as the horse has to be loaded, come what may, but force so often sets up resistance. Or even a phobia. Then you really DO have a problem! Puddle crossing could just as easily become that sort of an issue. So I agree with the OP.

On the other hand, force is sometimes needed but it is something that takes expertise and fine judgement to administer properly to get the right results. (One reason I try to avoid answering questions like, "My dog won't…." in the doggy section. Fill in the blank for yourself!).

My pup pulled the flying pan off the cooker last night and got bitten for his trouble. He probably won't do that again. But the biter knew how hard and when to bite. And, you know what? Pup actually loves me for it as it has established a boundary and we made friends again immediately after. The pup trespassed into my territory, discovered the consequences, and that is something he understands. He is still in the pack and I didn't attempt to drive him off. We speak the same language as he is quite excited to discover.

So, while I agree with the softly-softly approach, we are back to dealing with the Mafia. "Don Corleone asks a favour of you". A mild enough request, which is always granted, and decidedly softly-softly. There is no need for a threat. There is mutual respect and the rest is understood. You don't want to sleep with the fishes, do you?

So I think the OP has grasped the idea. Or at least half of it. The horse is not a democrat. It does not attend committee meetings before deciding what to do. In the wild, it lives in a hierarchical dictatorship that is in a state of permanent flux and eternal challenges. It always amuses me how there has to be a sorting out of that hierarchy every time I return a dog to his kennel, even if the absence has been for only a few minutes. If we can be that dictator, I hope it is as a benign one. OP seems to have got there. Just let's hope there is no Che Guevara lurking under her horse's skin!

And, yes, JFTD, what's on the video is part of it, but there is a lot more where that came from. It took me 30 years to realise what I think the OP may now be experiencing and there is more to it than is written in the books.

 

[JFTDWS]

But force isn't the only way to get a horse to do something - nobody here is saying "batter it through the puddle" - I'm certainly not. I'm saying that tackling the puddle has to be done, by some means - softly softly, cunningly, or with some encouragement depending on the nature of the horse. Avoiding the issue isn't an option long term (with most things).

DR, I'm reading your post and what you're saying doesn't sound remotely like the OP's statements!

 

[Dry Rot]

Confuzzled?

P

Private humour. JFTD, who it was aimed at, got it!

 

[PolarSkye]

Private humour. JFTD, who it was aimed at, got it!

Ah - ok

P

 

[Dry Rot]

But force isn't the only way to get a horse to do something - nobody here is saying "batter it through the puddle" - I'm certainly not. I'm saying that tackling the puddle has to be done, by some means - softly softly, cunningly, or with some encouragement depending on the nature of the horse. Avoiding the issue isn't an option long term (with most things).

DR, I'm reading your post and what you're saying doesn't sound remotely like the OP's statements!

What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.

 

[JFTDWS]

What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.

Thanks for the clarification, I missed that Interesting perspective!

 

[PolarSkye]

What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.

In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . .

P

P.S. Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat

 

[Wagtail]

In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . .


P

P.S. Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat

What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?

ETA: The OP comes over as being quite young (sorry Gwniver if I am mistaken), and for someone who said you do not like forum bullies, you are doing a pretty good impression.

 

[PolarSkye]

What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?

The point I am making (not trying to make - and I am ignoring your sarcasm) is that I think the OP doesn't know what she is doing and needs help.

I believe I HAVE contributed to the "interesting" discussion - and now I'm done. I had you on UI, took you off because the notifications were more annoying than your posts, but now I am reconsidering.

P

 

[Wagtail]

The point I am making (not trying to make - and I am ignoring your sarcasm) is that I think the OP doesn't know what she is doing and needs help.

I believe I HAVE contributed to the "interesting" discussion - and now I'm done. I had you on UI, took you off because the notifications were more annoying than your posts, but now I am reconsidering.

P

Not being sarcastic at all. Just asking you a question. I genuinely wanted to know your reason for posting the comment. But by all means put me on UI. It's always more effective when you tell the person you are doing it.

 

[PolarSkye]

What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?

ETA: The OP comes over as being quite young (sorry Gwniver if I am mistaken), and for someone who said you do not like forum bullies, you are doing a pretty good impression.

Wait . . . stating that someone might not know their arse from their elbow is bullying? You need to look up the definition in a dictionary.

And FWIW, the inability to spell/construct a sentence doesn't necessarily denote youth.

I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . . but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P

 

[Wagtail]

Wait . . . stating that someone might not know their arse from their elbow is bullying? You need to look up the definition in a dictionary.

And FWIW, the inability to spell/construct a sentence doesn't necessarily denote youth.

I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . . but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P

I have the impression that G is young, not just because of spelling but her responses to this thread. That is why I was concerned when an uncalled for comment was made. It just upset me seeing it, so I asked why you made the comment bearing in mind your previous remark about bullying. The majority of responses on this thread have been against what the OP is doing. She has reacted by 'shouting' in her frustration (which again makes me think she is very young). I think that most comments have been well thought out and informative. But when personal digs are made towards someone who is obviously getting upset and who comes across as young, then yes, I class that as bullying.

 

[PolarSkye]

I have the impression that G is young, not just because of spelling but her responses to this thread. That is why I was concerned when an uncalled for comment was made. It just upset me seeing it, so I asked why you made the comment bearing in mind your previous remark about bullying. The majority of responses on this thread have been against what the OP is doing. She has reacted by 'shouting' in her frustration (which again makes me think she is very young). I think that most comments have been well thought out and informative. But when personal digs are made towards someone who is obviously getting upset and who comes across as young, then yes, I class that as bullying.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. The "shouting" was rude . . . plenty of people on here "shout" and that doesn't necessarily denote youth. I didn't see someone who was upset, I saw someone who was holding fast to their right to be "right" and refused to listen/accept advice or input.

OP - if you are young and vulnerable and I have offended you, I am sorry . . . but please be careful with those young children around your horse.

P

 

[Wagtail]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. The "shouting" was rude . . . plenty of people on here "shout" and that doesn't necessarily denote youth. I didn't see someone who was upset, I saw someone who was holding fast to their right to be "right" and refused to listen/accept advice or input.

OP - if you are young and vulnerable and I have offended you, I am sorry . . . but please be careful with those young children around your horse.

P

She is 13 years old here. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?560625-am-i-to-tall!!!!

So 14, at the most 15 now.

 

[PolarSkye]

She is 13 years old here. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?560625-am-i-to-tall!!!!

So 14, at the most 15 now.

So old/savvy enough to know not to "shout" on an internet forum, too young to be letting other young children windmill around her (untrained) horse and definitely old enough to have manners/listen.

I have apologized to OP if I have hurt/offended her . . . but I still think she needs help.

P

 

[gwniver]

Ok - thank you wagtail =D
when I used capitols I really didn't want it to mean shouting in frustration , I probably should have use underline instead , I am sorry =)

Polarstar , I have been doing this approach for awhile now and I have only seen him go from a spooky , jumpy youngster . Who then I didn't let the children be around as he was unsafe then . So sorry .... but I am not going to listen to your advise =)

 

[Wagtail]

I actually think the parents of the 5 and 6 year old are responsible for what they are allowed to do. Gwniver, do the parents know they are 'playing' with your horse whilst it's loose? And do they wear hard hats?

 

[Urban Horse]

I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . . but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P

You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. We’ve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. “No boundaries” they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the ‘Alien’ movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We don’t listen to those who tell us that in doing so we’re allowing the horses to ’dominate’ us, for the simple reasons that firstly they aren’t, and secondly, horses don’t feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival… they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and it’s this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that “If you give a horse an escape route, chances are he’ll never need to use it. If you don’t give a horse and escape route, chances are he’ll use most of his brain trying to find it.”, we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they don’t choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach.

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce…. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.

 

[Dry Rot]

In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . .

P

P.S. Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat

No need to get your coat.

Most of the more useful inventions and discoveries were arrived at by accident. Penicillin for one.

Which is why the eccentrics did so much to make Britain great.

Maybe the OP is one and has a useful contribution to make? We'll never know if we don't listen.

(And the jury is still out here. I am still willing to accept that she is a benign idiot!).

 

[Fides]

Urban horse - violence is rare in the horse world as horses know not to overstep their mark, if they do however the offended horse will thrash out or at least put their ears back... They wouldn't just ignore the behaviour

 

[Arizahn]

I actually think the parents of the 5 and 6 year old are responsible for what they are allowed to do. Gwniver, do the parents know they are 'playing' with your horse whilst it's loose? And do they wear hard hats?

This. Be aware, OP, that said parents will definitely blame you and your horse if their children are injured or frightened. So please do be careful. Best of luck with your horse, and remember the golden rule of horses: there is ALWAYS more to learn, and what works now may one day need to be adapted!

<shouts to be heard over the debate>

 

[gwniver]

The parents are well aware =) and they are always wearing hard hats . To me all children that are small need to wear a hard hat around horses =)

Arizahn - my horses will never let me forget that =)

 

[PolarSkye]

You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. We&#8217;ve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. &#8220;No boundaries&#8221; they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the &#8216;Alien&#8217; movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We don&#8217;t listen to those who tell us that in doing so we&#8217;re allowing the horses to &#8217;dominate&#8217; us, for the simple reasons that firstly they aren&#8217;t, and secondly, horses don&#8217;t feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival&#8230; they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and it&#8217;s this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that &#8220;If you give a horse an escape route, chances are he&#8217;ll never need to use it. If you don&#8217;t give a horse and escape route, chances are he&#8217;ll use most of his brain trying to find it.&#8221;, we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they don&#8217;t choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach.

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce&#8230;. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.

Lovely post . . . well written and your horse(s) sound lovely.

However, I'm not talking about violence. I'm talking about natural horse behaviour. Spooking, etc. Horses are prey animals - they are hard wired to react first and ask questions later. This young lady (the OP) has young children playing (in her own words) with a horse with no boundaries. Yes, I read the above . . . but the horse didn't. However horses are raised, they are still horses - they can still spook, move independently (and quickly too) and they still weigh rather more than we do - not to mention young children.

I honestly feel like Sisyphus wrt this thread . . . but then I'm sure you, Wagtail and the OP feel the same way, so perhaps it's time for me to really disengage.

P

 

[Wagtail]

I honestly feel like Sisyphus wrt this thread . . . but then I'm sure you, Wagtail and the OP feel the same way, so perhaps it's time for me to really disengage.

P

I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.

 

[PolarSkye]

I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.

And by this post I assume you think I believe that there is a one size fits all approach to horsemanship . . . I don't! That is the the bedrock of my objection to the OP's approach/philosophy . . . so perhaps, after all this, we agree!

P

 

[Wagtail]

And by this post I assume you think I believe that there is a one size fits all approach to horsemanship . . . and that is the the bedrock of my objection to the OP's approach/philosophy . . . so perhaps, after all this, we agree!

P

Yes, we could well agree.

To clarify, I think the OP is in danger of thinking that her approach to training horses is the right one and that it would be applied to every horse. I also think that too many assumptions have been made by those objecting to her ways. Because it might just be that her horses actually are suited to her ways. Without seeing them ourselves we do not know. But she should be aware that what works for her horses may not work for others and could even be highly dangerous. But she is young, and no doubt she will learn from her mistakes.

 

[doriangrey]

You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. We’ve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. “No boundaries” they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the ‘Alien’ movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We don’t listen to those who tell us that in doing so we’re allowing the horses to ’dominate’ us, for the simple reasons that firstly they aren’t, and secondly, horses don’t feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival… they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and it’s this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that “If you give a horse an escape route, chances are he’ll never need to use it. If you don’t give a horse and escape route, chances are he’ll use most of his brain trying to find it.”, we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they don’t choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach.

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce…. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.

I'm glad you posted again urban horse (sorry about my faux pas about your username before). I am so intrigued about the acceptance of your methods compared to the OP, although there are a couple of posters who are open-minded enough to see the connection. Do you think we are so ingrained to believe that our horses want the upper hand that we misinterpret their behaviour towards us as violence in order to get their own way? Here's a thing, my young pony puts her ears back when I put her feed bucket in her stable or I call her outside for her hay. I don't care too much, it's her food and I don't want it - I leave her to it, but there are a lot of people who will make a horse back off for their food if they 'threaten' for it. I've thought about it I must admit that if I let her 'warn' me off I'm setting myself up for more problems - so is she pushing the boundaries or am I misinterpretating her behaviour? The most I have done is withhold it until she looks away and then I feed her but is that the same as letting her choose her own boundaries?

 

[Fides]

I'm glad you posted again urban horse (sorry about my faux pas about your username before). I am so intrigued about the acceptance of your methods compared to the OP, although there are a couple of posters who are open-minded enough to see the connection. Do you think we are so ingrained to believe that our horses want the upper hand that we misinterpret their behaviour towards us as violence in order to get their own way? Here's a thing, my young pony puts her ears back when I put her feed bucket in her stable or I call her outside for her hay. I don't care too much, it's her food and I don't want it - I leave her to it, but there are a lot of people who will make a horse back off for their food if they 'threaten' for it. I've thought about it I must admit that if I let her 'warn' me off I'm setting myself up for more problems - so is she pushing the boundaries or am I misinterpretating her behaviour? The most I have done is withhold it until she looks away and then I feed her but is that the same as letting her choose her own boundaries?

My horses wouldn't ever lay their ears back at me to gain access to food - they wait patiently until I 'release' the food. I don't ask them to wait, they just do. If they laid their ears back at me I would be making them
Back off in sharp shrift.

BUT I have never needed to do this and doubt I ever will as my horse respect me enough to know not to challenge me. My OH however ended up unceremoniously dumped on his arse when my mare. Challenged him for a net when he was tying it up-lots more handling lessons for my non-horsey OH...

 

[Dry Rot]

I think the OP is in her early teens? In that case she is, in the eyes of the law, still an infant and not responsible for the safety of the younger children. I think I'm right in saying that that responsibility will rest with the YO or the parents or which ever adult is supervising (or supposed to be).

Just trying to unemotionally state the facts and I stand to be corrected! We all know what the right thing to do would be so I'll not state the obvious.

 

[doriangrey]

My horses wouldn't ever lay their ears back at me to gain access to food - they wait patiently until I 'release' the food. I don't ask them to wait, they just do. If they laid their ears back at me I would be making them
Back off in sharp shrift.

BUT I have never needed to do this and doubt I ever will as my horse respect me enough to know not to challenge me. My OH however ended up unceremoniously dumped on his arse when my mare. Challenged him for a net when he was tying it up-lots more handling lessons for my non-horsey OH...

This was an unhandled 14 month old filly I bought in August and she's never tried to bite or kick since I've had her - she's very maneagable. Your post is typical of the kind of response I would expect without me trying to be disrespectful of you. Yes - she puts her ears back but I can stand next to her whilst she is eating, that's my dilemma. You set 'boundaries' Fides - but UH does not, why/what is different and if UH's horses are respectful of all humans - but yours are not which is the method that works?