To hard to accecpt ????

[keeperscottage]

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days (seething, because our horses are SO polite and well mannered) and was determined not to post ....until tonight..... One of my liveries had a horse with colic last weekend and I ended up trailering it to vet hospital. It's a thug of a horse, zero manners - doesn't like being clipped because (according to owner) he's frightened of the colour white so he freaks when he sees his (white) coat coming off, you can't lunge him with a white lunge rein (WTF???). He is SO spoilt! I could scream with frustration!! Anyway, VERY long story cut short - horse was actually in heart failure and it was touch and go (oh, and he was too fat to ultra-scan his heart!) but he's made a recovery and will be coming home next week. Spoke to owner tonight regarding collecting him from vet hospital but, no, they don't want me to trailer him home - they're getting someone with a horse box to collect him because they think a trailer is too claustrophobic for him!! The horse completely rules their lives and is totally bad mannered but they always have an excuse for his behaviour. We would never put up with his behaviour.

 

[Mrs B]

I had my EDT out yesterday to float the teeth of my lot. He is not only a very good dentist, but he has a great natural affinity with horses and they all settle with him. He was so good with my 3yo filly, who can be wary with strangers. He just calmly introduced himself to her, carried chatting to me and before she knew it she had the dental gag in. Over the course of a few minutes, she was accepting the power tools and having her caps removed, and he kept chatting to me and giving her breaks. By the end, she was fully relaxed and she nuzzled him affectionately after he removed the gag.

He made it look so easy, but then that is the sign of a genius.

Sorry to hijack, but that sounds like Mr Shane K to me ...

 

[Tiddlypom]

Robin Harding .

 

[blackandwhite]

The OP may well say her horse is "better behaved" but that may well be purely her interpretation. My horse's previous owner said the same thing! She'd taken him to a Parelli "playdate" at the yard we liveried at (before we were there) where he proceeded to get free from her and career around like a maniac. She explained this as him "expressing his personality and showing off for the other horses". She honestly thought that that behaviour, which endangered people, other animals and himself, was both acceptable and to be expected. I think the difference between that approach and what urban horse has written is huge and probably why he's not been in receipt of the same criticism.

 

[Dry Rot]

Oh dear, I'm afraid I'm another who thinks the OP may have a point! But my experience is mainly with dogs so I really don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe it does work with her horse but I wonder if it is rather an easily dominated character (what I would call "highly geared") and the OP is unconsciously giving signals that the horse feels bound to obey? Would her methods work with other horses? Did she handle it from an early age or has someone else put in the ground work and instilled that essential respect that she now relies on?

I sometimes explain that the relationship between a working dog and it's handler is like working with the Mafia! Shouts and threats should be unnecessary. A raised finger can convey a much more powerful message if the dog is properly trained and tuned. Doesn't the skilled rider merely shift body weight to control his horse, even think what he wants the horse to do -- and it does it? Well, so I've been informed.

The most respected teacher never has to raise his voice in class to his pupils. Just holding eye-to-eye contact will bring the wilful child back to the straight and narrow. Over a long career, I have seen a lot of excellent working dogs and the best are usually at one end of two extremes. They are either under perfect control and react immediately to the handler's signals, but lack that flash and style of the natural worker. Or they have all that flash and style (what I think Alec may mean by "confidence"?) but it cannot be controlled or only so with difficulty. The rare one has the balance between the two and that is both flashy and stylish but can instantly be controlled and guided by the slightest change in body language. I think it is the same with some horses, but I am still a learner.

So, just how does the trainer go about getting that fine level of control without "knocking the bloom off"? Ah, there's the rub! Maybe the OP has achieved this, at least as far as she needs to do it for her own purposes? But if she is leaving all the decisions to her horse I rather doubt it. On the other hand, if she is subconsciously applying such a low level of control that even she doesn't know she is doing it, she has a rare gift. So, for me, the jury is still out. I'd be rather reluctant to crush a seedling that might one day grow into a mighty oak.

 

[doriangrey]

I think that's fair enough, but OP got slated and no doubt about it even though they had said that their method had produced a horse that was better behaved. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either poster, I am just open-mouthed that equal posters on a forum got such different responses with no other reason is that one is more .. I don't know .. more plausible I guess.

ETA - in response to blackandwhite

 

[Fides]

I think that's fair enough, but OP got slated and no doubt about it even though they had said that their method had produced a horse that was better behaved. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either poster, I am just open-mouthed that equal posters on a forum got such different responses with no other reason is that one is more .. I don't know .. more plausible I guess.

ETA - in response to blackandwhite

But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

Damn I've brought the spelling mistake back to the top again!!

 

[Landcruiser]

The owner of the pony that (permanently) wrecked my daughter's confidence also believed she was a well behaved darling (see my earlier post). And so she was, as long as she was in her comfort zone, but in a new environment and with a job to do she was a determined, violent and resourceful thug.
It sounds like the OP has a good relationship with her horse, and all is well for her - others on her yard clearly have concerns though. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and see what the deal really is.

 

[PolarSkye]

But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

This - there's none so blind as those who will not see . . .

. . . also OP said (and I'm paraphrasing) that she allows her horse to dictate whether or not she can be in his space. A horse that won't let me in its space is, to me, not a particularly well-mannered animal - speaks to me of a lack of respect for the owner/handler and also, possibly, a lack of trust. Not the relationship I would wish to have with mine - or any large, flighty, prey animal.

Lastly, if the OP had responded rationally to the debate, and been able to back up her claims instead of getting stroppy and being rude and getting rather shouty, people might have been willing to listen/be more open-minded. I'm still not 100% convinced by Urban Horse, but he/she is at least willing to participate in a debate rather than just ranting AT other posters.

 

[JennBags]

But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

^^^ this exactly. The way she described his behaviour was not (to me) the description of a horse following a natural leader. It's like that other recent thread where someone was complaining that everyone was telling them that their horse was fat, but they just thought it was their build. When asked to post photos, they disappeared from the thread...despite others posting lovely photos of slim heavy-types.

 

[Wagtail]

Whilst I think many horses benefit from being given firm boundaries, it is not a 'one size fits all'. I treat every horse here completely differently depending on temperament and personality. I have one that I allow to give me playful nibbles because I have known him for many, many years and he is the most gentle, well mannered horse anyone could wish to meet. He knows exactly how hard he is nibbling and would never ever hurt you, and only dos it with people he knows well and is affectionate with. On the other end of the scale, I have a two year old that would get an immediate and very hard whallop if he ever put his teeth near me because give him an inch and he turns into a nasty aggressive teenager. He also NEVER gets treats, whereas most of the others do. I love him to bits and he is starting to turn into a lovely polite and affectionate gentleman.

People do not know the OP's horse and so I think it is wrong to assume that he will turn into a dangerous thug. All horses are different.

 

[spotty_pony]

Sounds a bit odd to me. I know many horses which would, given a chance completely play on you allowing them to not do something if they didn't want to… My Appy spooks at drains - if I turned him around every time we met one. we wouldn't make it out of the yard!! I ride quite a few young horses and teach them to hack alone, etc. I agree it is all about trust, not through force but I wouldn't give in and turn back, just give them a while to process and think about what it is they have been asked to do and most of the time they will do it anyway once they have thought about it. Just yesterday I hacked out a baby for his first proper hack alone. He was very wary when we came to a farm along a bridleway as there was lots to see and look at so I gave him a moment to stand and take it all in, then he was happy to walk on and trusted me it is ok. IMO turning your horse back every time it says no isn't gaining there trust - rather loosing it as they haven't the trust in you to try it - therefore you need to work on your partnership to get any further.

 

[Dry Rot]

But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

Damn I've brought the spelling mistake back to the top again!!

And so it might. Because every time a different person interacts with a horse the dynamics within the herd change. And a herd (or pack) can comprise only two members.

What I am saying is that horse and the rider/handler can constitute a herd even though it is a herd with only two members. As another poster has pointed out, the social hierarchy within a herd is a lot more complex than the popular idea that A dominates B, A and B dominate C, and so on. Sometimes ranks are reversed, sometimes they are equal, the changes can occur in fractions of a second (watch young animals play). A new herd probably hasn't an established hierarchy at all, though each member will generally take on assumptive positions from past experience (i.e. training).

I have had many perfectly trained dogs that another person could not handle. That doesn't mean it was a bad dog, just that the new handler was unable to form a relationship with the dog. Some dogs will work for anyone, some will only work for one handler. I am quite sure there are horses like that. Maybe the OP's horse is one of them? So everyone at the yard says it is badly behaved and a liability?

It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!

So, I would say to the OP, keep doing what you are doing. TYhe prophets of doom have been saying, "It can't be done", since before some idiot invented the wheel -- and I'll bet they all said that wouldn't work either!

 

[Doormouse]

I think that there is something to be learnt from every discipline and every school of thought in the horse world and I would say that in general most people are open minded enough to understand this. Problems perhaps arrive when people become inspired by a 'new' way of doing things, stick religiously to it no matter what the situation and execute it without the experience or knowledge to back it up.

The belief by some people that every horse person in general immediately reaches for their stick as soon as a horse doesn't want to do something is ridiculous, I would say that most of the horse world has the sense to realise that horses are flight animals and that many things we ask them to do are frightening for them intially. Reassurance is very important and always the first port of call with any horse and I honestly believe that most people take this option.

 

[JennBags]

And so it might. Because every time a different person interacts with a horse the dynamics within the herd change. And a herd (or pack) can comprise only two members.

What I am saying is that horse and the rider/handler can constitute a herd even though it is a herd with only two members. As another poster has pointed out, the social hierarchy within a herd is a lot more complex than the popular idea that A dominates B, A and B dominate C, and so on. Sometimes ranks are reversed, sometimes they are equal, the changes can occur in fractions of a second (watch young animals play). A new herd probably hasn't an established hierarchy at all, though each member will generally take on assumptive positions from past experience (i.e. training).

I have had many perfectly trained dogs that another person could not handle. That doesn't mean it was a bad dog, just that the new handler was unable to form a relationship with the dog. Some dogs will work for anyone, some will only work for one handler. I am quite sure there are horses like that. Maybe the OP's horse is one of them? So everyone at the yard says it is badly behaved and a liability?

It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!

So, I would say to the OP, keep doing what you are doing. TYhe prophets of doom have been saying, "It can't be done", since before some idiot invented the wheel -- and I'll bet they all said that wouldn't work either!

But the problem is - as has been pointed out many times - that sometimes other people NEED to be able to handle your horse - and if you are the only one who can, then this is a problem. Also, the OP has other people's children going in her field and "playing" with her horse....if she is the ONLY one that the horse listens to, do you really condone this?

 

[Woolly Hat n Wellies]

My friend was very much a novice to the day-in day-out dealing with a horse when she got her first one. She had a support network, but the promised help didn't really materialise (and sank without trace when she started to have problems!). She wanted the horse to like her, and having previously ridden other people's well-mannered horses she didn't really 'get' the body language of confidence/authority. When I got to know her and visited, I found a horse who was, essentially, the boss. Nothing was asked of it when it was ridden, if it didn't want to, it didn't do. So far it had been ridden without incident, but on the floor things were deteriorating rapidly. It had massive separation anxiety. If it was left alone for 5 minutes you came back to a horse drenched in sweat, with eyes rolling. When it lost sight of its friend one day, it tried to climb out of the stable window and cut its leg, and this is when it became really dangerous. It needed bathing every day, but it didn't want anyone to touch the cut. It had threatened to kick before but the owner had always backed off and nothing had happened. Now it threatened in earnest, and when we couldn't back off because the job needed to be done, it tried to kick, and meant it. The 'no touch' zone became pretty much the front half of its body, even when the cut had healed. It started literally walking over the top of people, kicking out when handled, and swinging away from the rider at the mounting block, and it was only a matter of time before it decided it didn't want to do this riding lark at all, thank you very much. Funnily enough, in the hands of myself and the vet it was manageable, as long as it couldn't see the owner (I'm not experienced with this kind of horse at all, and am by no means qualified to fix these problems, but I'm quite experienced with cattle, and when a large, four-legged herd animal is threatening to beat you up, it doesn't really seem to matter, for a one-off encounter, if it has one toe per foot or two!).

She sold it eventually, to someone experienced who took her to a busy yard of experienced people who wouldn't stand any nonsense, and apparently she is much more relaxed and her manners are improving. But because of her behaviour, the buyers had quite a lot of negotiating room, and basically bought a very nice saddle with a free horse thrown in.

I agree with the above posters saying horses are individuals with different needs, but if you pick the wrong approach to the wrong individual, you're going to have problems and end up with a dangerous horse. My friend's horse was very much lead mare, and was stressed beyond belief at the responsibility for decisions which she'd taken upon herself.

(P.S. They now have a much better support network, are having lots of lessons, and are focusing very hard on stable manners with their new, laid-back boy!)

 

[JFTDWS]

It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!

I think there's a difference between "low pressure" and "if you make enough fuss, we'll just avoid the issue", which is what the OP seems to be saying.

I definitely agree with "low pressure" training, setting the horse up to succeed, capitalising on natural responses and making the right response easy. I've seen the video you refer to (it's great ) and that's what you were doing in it with the pups, I think? It's what I try to do with my lot - I want them to get it right, so I will always ask a question that they can answer, and make sure I praise a sensible effort. I don't want to batter them into submission (and I don't!).

The OP seems to be saying that if the horse doesn't want to do something (walk through a puddle or work at all) she just doesn't bother. That's avoiding the issue, and letting the horse decide it doesn't want to do something, so it shan't. Rather more comparable to having a dog and just not training it at all, than a dog that is trained to one person's commands! I wouldn't really want to handle a dog that had never been trained at all, and thought it could choose what we do and when, let alone half a tonne of horse!

I think that's what a lot of posters find worrying - a horse making all the decisions is rather dangerous. And the OP does allow kids to handle it, which is a bit scary, if it has "no boundaries". If it hasn't been given boundaries, isn't it just luck that has prevented an accident so far?

I'm really enjoying some of the posts on this thread, and (as always) I agree with so much of what you're saying, DR

 

[PolarSkye]

I think there's a difference between "low pressure" and "if you make enough fuss, we'll just avoid the issue", which is what the OP seems to be saying.

The OP seems to be saying that if the horse doesn't want to do something (walk through a puddle or work at all) she just doesn't bother. That's avoiding the issue, and letting the horse decide it doesn't want to do something, so it shan't.

I think that's what a lot of posters find worrying - a horse making all the decisions is rather dangerous. And the OP does allow kids to handle it, which is a bit scary, if it has "no boundaries". If it hasn't been given boundaries, isn't it just luck that has prevented an accident so far?

Thank you for putting into words what I have so far failed to communicate . . . perfectly put .

P

 

[JFTDWS]

Thank you for putting into words what I have so far failed to communicate . . . perfectly put .

P

Thank you for rewarding a sensible effort, and not battering me for any times I've got it wrong. I consider this a learning experience and will re-double my efforts to maintain posting standards in future

 

[PolarSkye]

Thank you for rewarding a sensible effort, and not battering me for any times I've got it wrong. I consider this a learning experience and will re-double my efforts to maintain posting standards in future

Smart arse .

P

 

[gwniver]

Oh gosh there are a lot of replies =) haven't the time to read them all
but I will repeat something again because no one seems to hear it . NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING OS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

Also other liveries don't have a problem handling him , they don't really .they just think it will lead to problem .

As I said he is perfectly behaved , just this morning I had him backing around in a circle =)

In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??

 

[Dry Rot]

Smart arse .

P

Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?

 

[PolarSkye]

Oh gosh there are a lot of replies =) haven't the time to read them all
but I will repeat something again because no one seems to hear it . NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING OS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

Once again, please stop shouting. And, honestly, you wouldn't have to shout if you actually read the replies. You are doing the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and repeating yourself - loudly - without bothering to hear what others have to say . . . I'm sorry, but that's rude.

Also other liveries don't have a problem handling him , they don't really .they just think it will lead to problem .

And have you asked them why?

As I said he is perfectly behaved , just this morning I had him backing around in a circle =)

But apparently you can't go into his space unless he "lets" you . . . not perfectly behaved IMHO.

In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??

IME, animals who are truly frightened won't accept treats - and if treats are how you train your horse then words fail me. In the interest of being open/helping us understand you (rather than you just shouting at us that you're right and we're all wrong), how about you tell us how you have tried (so far) to persuade your horse to do something he doesn't want to do?

I'm sorry - I try very hard to be kind, patient and open minded on this forum because I loathe forum bullies . . . but you really don't help yourself when all you do is repeat the same thing over and over. We are hearing you . . . I wonder how much you are hearing us? It's perfectly acceptable to agree to disagree, but you started this thread and, having chucked the cat amongst the pigeons, you seem outraged that there may be differing opinions/dissent. If you didn't want a debate, why did you start the conversation?

While I have been enjoying the more lucid arguments in your favour (not, unfortunately including yours), I'm afraid your attitude is frustrating me beyond belief, so I'm out.

P

 

[JFTDWS]

Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?

I'm not wasting money on a stamp... Anyway, I can't have another pony till I buy more land!



ETA - OP, my horses *want* to work with me too. Particularly my main horse. He loves to work and he loves to please. AND I know that he will always try to walk through a puddle, past a scary thing or into the valley of the shadow of death if I ask him to, because he has been taught that his job is to do as he's asked, when he's asked.

 

[gwniver]

Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would
=)

 

[PolarSkye]

Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?

Confuzzled?

P

 

[Wagtail]

Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would
=)

Gwniver, you have had plenty of support on this thread. The least you could do is to read all the replies.

 

[gwniver]

I am going to try to get though them =) thank you to those who have supported me =) The last page I read up to was 15 ... or something =)

 

[Capriole]

boundaries are different to not making them do anything , Personal space for instance . I will swing my arms around me ( slowly ! , not like parelli ) until they get out of MY space . But if they ask me to move out of theirs I pay them the same respect . I just don't force THEM to do anything .

I am quite happy to admit my horse is boss , if he wants to be left alone then ... leave him alone . I have a 5 and 6 year old come and help me regularly and they have great fun playing with him . He understands that if he asks me out of his space and I don't then there is a good reason for this and he wont ask again .
@ soulfull

Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would
=)

You've said different earlier in the thread.

People have also explained a couple of times that the use of all Caps on forums is considered shouting.

As for your training methods, wouldn't be for me but I respect your right to do what the hell you like, if it affected me in any way I'd have more of an opinion. Just commenting as I'm reading this thread with mild interest as I wait for food to cook, and wanted to point out some of the contradictions you are making.

 

[Capriole]

I am going to try to get though them =) thank you to those who have supported me =) The last page I read up to was 15 ... or something =)

Much easier and less clicking if you change your page settings to max posts per page, btw, I've only got 5 pages.