To hard to accecpt ????

[Fides]

This was an unhandled 14 month old filly I bought in August and she's never tried to bite or kick since I've had her - she's very maneagable. Your post is typical of the kind of response I would expect without me trying to be disrespectful of you. Yes - she puts her ears back but I can stand next to her whilst she is eating, that's my dilemma. You set 'boundaries' Fides - but UH does not, why/what is different and if UH's horses are respectful of all humans - but yours are not which is the method that works?

But OP had said that her yard 'buddies' have issues with her horse so obviously OPs method is not working,.. My example was given to illustrate how a horse may behave with someone unhorsey ie my OH. Anyone horsey, my horses are totally compliant. Just adding also that my boy was only gelded about 6 months ago and the fact that my non-horsey OH can handle him safely speaks volumes...

 

[doriangrey]

But OP had said that her yard 'buddies' have issues with her horse so obviously OPs method is not working,.. My example was given to illustrate how a horse may behave with someone unhorsey ie my OH. Anyone horsey, my horses are totally compliant. Just adding also that my boy was only gelded about 6 months ago and the fact that my non-horsey OH can handle him safely speaks volumes...

I think the OP said that they had issues with how she was training the horse not the horse itself (first post). I'm not having a go at you Fides, I want to know how not setting boundaries can be so effective - it's an honest ask because I would love to improve myself. My best and most gentle horse was a stallion.

 

[Fides]

My best and most gentle horse was a stallion.

They're special aren't they? Totally different experience!

 

[doriangrey]

They're special aren't they? Totally different experience!

Agree, amazing and resourceful. I feel really priviliged to have been in a position to own one

 

[Fides]

Agree, amazing and resourceful. I feel really priviliged to have been in a position to own one

Me too - though I ended up having to geld him under
Pressure of others he wasn't an issue, the neighbouring farm's mares
field was - they were trying to jump in for a bit

 

[Urban Horse]

I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.

Luckily, over the years I have met and retrained many horses that have challenged.... but almost without exception their problems were due to previous handling and training, not their true nature. It is through those horses (for which I hold a lot of gratitude and affection for the lessons they gave) that I now have the skills, confidence and experience to treat all horses in the manner that I do. Sadly I still know more than a few owners who seem to think there is a great deal of kudos in owning/training what is seen as a 'difficult' horse. The human ego and horses should really be kept well apart.

I once asked a friend of mine, a US based trainer, if his methods worked on all horses. He simply replied "Do my methods work on every horse, I don't know I haven't met every horse, but they've worked with every horse I've met."

 

[Wagtail]

Luckily, over the years I have met and retrained many horses that have challenged.... but almost without exception their problems were due to previous handling and training, not their true nature. It is through those horses (for which I hold a lot of gratitude and affection for the lessons they gave) that I now have the skills, confidence and experience to treat all horses in the manner that I do. Sadly I still know more than a few owners who seem to think there is a great deal of kudos in owning/training what is seen as a 'difficult' horse. The human ego and horses should really be kept well apart.

I once asked a friend of mine, a US based trainer, if his methods worked on all horses. He simply replied "Do my methods work on every horse, I don't know I haven't met every horse, but they've worked with every horse I've met."

The two year old at my yard was born here. He was spoilt rotten by his owner with treats until he became an absolute thug. Now had he been a different nature, this may not have happened. She has owned his mother from a youngster and done the same thing with her and she's fine, and so have all the horses she has owned before her. He is good as gold for me now. But as soon as his owner walks on the yard he's a different horse.

 

[Wagtail]

When this colt was born (the now 2 year old I have been referring to), we were the first creatures he saw along with his mother. Once he had gained his footing and good balance after a couple of days he proceeded to purposely kick us every time we went to handle him. And it hurt! He then started to kick his mother, getting her square in the belly a couple of times. Whereby she chastised him quite firmly with a controlled but hard kick from her own hindleg, and from that moment on he has never kicked either human or horse again. But he moved on to biting, which many foals do, but he continued and it was really meant, ears back, the lot. We therefore had him gelded at only 5 and a half months hoping that would calm him, but it didn't. He stands at 16.2hh now and is two this month. He progressed to trapping his owner in his stable and rearing at her if she tried to go for the door. I had to rescue her a few times! Now this horse is going to be around 18 hands and I have therefore had to change my way of handling him (have done for the past year). If you so much as tried to scratch or stroke him he would pin his ears and try to bite you. Now, due to firm handling and very black and white boundaries, he will let me do absolutely anything with him. His whole attitude has altered. He has become the most affectionate and delightful individual who now not only keeps his ears relaxed when I stroke or scratch him, but who nuzzles me and enjoys a cuddle.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

 

[diamonddogs]

It's all about good leadership rather than dominance - my horse will follow me the vast majority of the time, because she trusts me. There might be situations she's unsure about, in which case I get the look that says "OK, I'm with you - for now. We'll go past that flappy haylage bag, but if it wants to eat us, you're on your own mate - I'm gone".

She's good with words as well - the one that cracks everyone up is hands held up and "All gone!" when there are no treats, but she doesn't ask again once I've done that!

Seriously though, you simply HAVE to teach basic manners. If I couldn't get to the yard for any reason, I don't to be worrying about whether the person turning out my horse is going to be killed or maimed, specially if I'm having an occasional well earned lie-in.

My mare will walk happily down the field at my side and only has her lead rope clipped on when we get to the gate - I'd never really thought about the herding thing before, but I guess it's OK for us as I would never allow her to walk behind me, either restrained or loose. And if she's worried about walking past something scary I always pray there's nobody about to hear me telling the object what a lovely plastic barrel (or whatever) it is, and watch me stroke it! Works for us- and she'll always have a sniff if she sees I don't mind it.

I personally think my horse has beautiful manners, but if anyone happened to make a negative comment about her behaviour when I wasn't around, I'd listen and ask for details because none of us know everything and there's rarely a day goes by I don't learn something new (see above para re herding!). You can't use the same training methods on every horse and neither can you use the same training methods every day on the same horse, and we should all be open to help and advice.

 

[Wagtail]

You can't use the same training methods on every horse and neither can you use the same training methods every day on the same horse, and we should all be open to help and advice.

That is exactly what I think. Good horse people are flexible and always learning and willing to adapt. You may well have a philosophy which has worked well for you for tens of years, only to meet a horse that needs a different approach. There are certain things which I think apply in ALL situations with horses though, and those are:

Remain calm with low energy (unless horse needs more energy!)
Be consistent - so the horse can quickly learn and understand.
Set the horse up to succeed - avoid situations where he is set up to fail
Do not do battle with the horse.

 

[Annagain]

They're all different and react to humans in different ways. My boy, without consistent, firm handling, will take mickey royally. He'd never kick or bite but will drag a handler anywhere he feels like if they're not right by his shoulder with one hand immediately behind his nose, so I, and anybody who handles him, know to do it properly and have our wits about us. This does not mean using force, just insisting on his attention being on you and not that lovely bit of grass over there. My share horse - at the same yard with the same people so with the same experiences will follow anybody who asks him to anywhere and you can do anything to him. He is therefore treated very differently and allowed to amble around at the end of the rope. He's 17hh and my 4yr old (but tiny for her age, more like a 2 1/2 yr old) niece leads him around the yard...she's not allowed within 2 metres of my boy unless someone is carrying her. He's not nasty but will walk all over an adult let alone a little one.
They're the same to ride - A needs to be told what to do in no uncertain terms, you just hint at M that maybe he'd like to consider it in the next few minutes and it's done. Neither is unhappy with this. In fact A is much happier with clarity, he gets easily confused and upset if he doesn't know what you're asking him to do. He's just much thicker skinned (headed?) so doesn't get polite requests.

 

[Urban Horse]

That is exactly what I think. Good horse people are flexible and always learning and willing to adapt. You may well have a philosophy which has worked well for you for tens of years, only to meet a horse that needs a different approach. There are certain things which I think apply in ALL situations with horses though, and those are:

Remain calm with low energy (unless horse needs more energy!)
Be consistent - so the horse can quickly learn and understand.
Set the horse up to succeed - avoid situations where he is set up to fail
Do not do battle with the horse.

I hope this link works, it's a brief low def extract from a film made for my grandaughter showing her Nanny and Grandad's horses and their lives. This is younger mare during some of her 'training'. Of course it's a cheat... the trailer was left on her paddock; initially it was frightening, then an object of interest, and finally a toy. The extract showing her walking on the tarp was a cheat too... she helped carry the poles and the tarp, and was on it (her first time) before it was fully spread out. The last part shows her approaching a fluttering bag, in order to gain a reward. You see we do follow your 'rules of horsemanship'.

I also have a lot of photos of a group of feral Koinks interacting with man made objects too, just for the joy of exploration.

 

[Ladyinred]

Urban Horse, do you realise you have left all your Photobucket for everyone to view, and not just the video (which won't play for me!) Nice horses though!

 

[Urban Horse]

Urban Horse, do you realise you have left all your Photobucket for everyone to view, and not just the video (which won't play for me!) Nice horses though!

Thanks for the warning, but my account is all set to public anyway, as is my Flickr account, so anyone can see anything that's on there if they feel the need. The point of the video link was simply to let people know that our (OH and stepdaughter are involved too) horses, although being trained in a different way to other people's, still undergo the same things... loading and confidence building exercises that increase the bond and relationship between us. If you don't 'push the boundaries' you neither learn nor grow, but some are afraid to do this as they belive that their horse will no longer 'love' them. Of course, in truth, the opposite is true... Once your horse finds that he can trust you to help him through what he feels to be new and difficult, the relationship between you will grow.

I try not to speak with any degree of 'authority' about things that I can't or haven't done myself.

 

[Wagtail]

Once your horse finds that he can trust you to help him through what he feels to be new and difficult, the relationship between you will grow.

Completely agree, that trust is the key. There is no point in forcing a horse to do something, it does nothing for your relationship with them. Of course, some people do not want a relationship with their horse (not aimed at anyone on this thread), they just want a 'machine' to carry out their sport. When it breaks they get a new one.

 

[Goldenstar]

Trust is key , the horse trusts you to be the leader .
Those competition machines have bonds with their riders too look what happened when the Germans thought it would easy to make Totilas go better .
His bond with his previous rider was visible and the lack of bond with his new one was also clear .

 

[Wagtail]

Trust is key , the horse trusts you to be the leader .
Those competition machines have bonds with their riders too look what happened when the Germans thought it would easy to make Totilas go better .
His bond with his previous rider was visible and the lack of bond with his new one was also clear .

I agree, which is why I said 'some' people. I did not mean everyone who competes, even at high levels.