To neuter, or not?

[siennamiller]

Hi,
We have a 2 yr old labradoodle. He is a really fabulous dog. Very handsome, well behaved, and amazing with my boys (6 and 9).

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So, apart from an adolescent stage where he was a bit agressive with other dogs ( never biting, just growling), he's really great.
Unfortunately, we have someone in our village who walks their bitch in heat, and somehow he managed to escape, and run up the main rd. Luckily someone caught him and brought him back.
We would really like to breed from him, but would also like an alive dog?
Any advice.

 

[JillA]

Always worth castrating, if not because of the problem of following bitches in season, then to remove the risk of testicular cancer. Why breed from him - bottom line is he is a cross breed.

 

[PorkChop]

Personally, I would neuter unless you can guarantee a secure enclosure for him to go in tbh, just not worth the risk.

 

[Bosworth]

you need to ask yourself 'why do you want to breed' Im sure he is a lovely dog, but he is a cross breed. You dont know what he will throw as he could throw more labrador , or more poodle. Has he been hip/elbow scored as that can be prevalent in labradors, have his eyes been tested as poodles are prone to eye issues. Only breed if you can be 100% sure you will produce totally healthy puppies who all have a good home to go to.

 

[Alec Swan]

He is indeed a handsome dog. I currently have two bitches and one entire dog in kennels, and an entire dog who lives in the house. I have never had a dog castrated, and wouldn't because it changes the dog and de-masculinates them, the head becomes more feminine and there is always a degree of muscle wastage. Just as a gelded horse is obvious and different from an entire horse, so is a dog.

In your shoes, if you can't cope with a dog which is entire, then have him 'done', but you will most certainly end up with a dog which is different from one which is entire. Whether you want to breed from your dog is an irrelevance, the question is, 'Do you want the dog changed'? If you're unable to prevent your dog from 'escaping', then rest assured, castrating a dog doesn't prevent straying.

He is indeed a handsome dog, and if you wish him to remain so, I'd leave him as he is, nadgers included!

Alec.

 

[Dobermonkey]

Alec, at 2 would his head change that much? Also wouldn't muscle wastage also depend on diet and exercise? I've seen some pretty fit bitches with great muscle tone. Genuinely interested as I have no experience (my 9yr old still has all his kit)

 

[JillA]

I have had most of mine castrated, for the reasons I stated above, all came as rescues over the years so were mature adults. None changed in any way, either physically or in temperament, except for the better. It may be that for working dogs, when they are getting more than enough human direction and physical exercise, entire could be better, especially if they are required to be bold and brave. Pets are rather different.
I have to say, based on several years of behaviour and training consultations, Alec's is the typical male point of view, it was always the husband who objected to a suggestion of it even if there were good behavioural reasons. It is usually called empathy

 

[splashgirl45]

I have known lots of neutered dogs and as long as they aren't done too early they do not have muscle wastage or head changes or character changes... once again a male person is unhappy about castration!!!!!!!! why risk the chance that he could father crossbreed puppies . I am sure in the next few weeks the rescue centres will be overrun with unwanted dogs and puppies.

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec, at 2 would his head change that much? Also wouldn't muscle wastage also depend on diet and exercise? I've seen some pretty fit bitches with great muscle tone. Genuinely interested as I have no experience (my 9yr old still has all his kit)

You raise interesting points. 'Generally' most owners have dogs castrated at the age of about 12 months, and before the dog is fully developed. At the age of two years? Well the skull can't regress in size or shape, but the air of masculinity and that can only be due to over-skull and jaw muscles, again 'generally' do seem to fade. Castrated dogs generally, just as horses and humans, take on a rather feminine stance.

The biggest indication to a dog having been castrated is at the tail end of the animal. Just why a castrated dog should loose muscle bulk, when it can be in exactly the same daily routine as a dog which is entire, I can't say, but I suspect that the reason is that with the castrated animal, the dog's being has lost some of its purpose and so the animal perhaps doesn't display the same degree of energy that he would, had he been entire. Again, I'm unsure why this should be so.

There's another influence; early castration (though obviously not in the case of the dog in question), and just as foals which are gelded early, so dogs which are cut, pre-puberty (and humans too!) they all so often reach heights which are beyond what one would have expected. I know of a whippet which was castrated at about 16 weeks, and he stands at a full 24" and a labrador which though I haven't measured him, is an absolute monster!

Regarding 'fit' bitches, it's testosterone which defines the male. Generally, males of any species will display a totally different skeletal and muscular shape and form, than females. Masculine bitches? Now that's an entirely different and equally interesting topic!

Anyway, that's what I think and though I'm generally unpopular with the 'whip-em-off' brigade, I believe that my views are as valid as anyone else's!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. ... once again a male person is unhappy about castration!!!!!!!! why risk the chance that he could father crossbreed puppies . I am sure in the next few weeks the rescue centres will be overrun with unwanted dogs and puppies.

Once again, your imagination's running away with you! I could also (but won't) ask you if you have a dislike of 'anything' male!! Dogs have no entitlements to testicles or tails, my argument is and will always be, the effect upon the animal itself.

I would also wonder if you allow your dog the freedom to roam where it wishes, and 'marry' where it cares to! If those with bitches which are in season (there can't be many, because it seems that everyone wants them speyed), are silly enough to allow them access to entire dogs, then neither you nor I are their keepers.

Alec.

 

[minesadouble]

We have an entire 2 year old Hungarian Vizsla. Though we have no intention of using him for breeding purposes I have no desire to see him castrated. He is a lovely dog just as he is - my attitude is if it ain't broke don't try and fix it!
Edited to add I am female but still hate the thought of taking away what nature blessed him with

 

[splashgirl45]

Once again, your imagination's running away with you! I could also (but won't) ask you if you have a dislike of 'anything' male!! Dogs have no entitlements to testicles or tails, my argument is and will always be, the effect upon the animal itself.

I would also wonder if you allow your dog the freedom to roam where it wishes, and 'marry' where it cares to! If those with bitches which are in season (there can't be many, because it seems that everyone wants them speyed), are silly enough to allow them access to entire dogs, then neither you nor I are their keepers.

Alec.

well you have asked, and personally am very happy with males of the human variety!!!!! however not un-neutered male dogs who want to hump my spayed bitches, and find that this obsession with keeping crossbreed male dogs entire very strange....

 

[{97702}]

I'd definitely neuter him - not worth the risk of him going to roam, and it will make absolutely no difference to his looks as long as you continue to feed and manage him properly

 

[MotherOfChickens]

female here-if I ever get another male dog, I won't be castrating him as a matter of course. I like setters and it knackers their coat and ime it affects the adult character. It does in the same way it does with horses and with cats (although there are very good reasons for castrating cats which I can't argue with).

 

[Clodagh]

He is a lovely dog. I wouldn't breed from him, at the end of the day he is a mongrel and there are millions of those already knocking around the rescues.

Recall and obedience is not the same thing as neutered, if escape is an option many a young fit dog will do it, balls or no.

 

[ester]

If you don't then you need to make sure you can keep him in.

I think there are many arguments for not breeding from him, but that doesn't necessarily mean castration.

 

[twiggy2]

I am not going to get into the arguments above.

I work at a vets and we see many dogs with prostate problems and and a fair few with testicular cancer you pretty much rule out the first and definately rule out the second by having the dog castrated.
If your dog has only ever escaped after an in season bitch it is very unlikely he will still do it once a few weeks has passed after castration, I have always walked my bitches when in season-you cannot keep them on house rest for three plus weeks and I believe that not exercising a bitch in season vastly increases the risk of PYO, When I have a bitch in season it is my responsibility to be sure she cannot escape and get to and entire dog , as the owner of an entire dog it is my belief that it is your responsibility that he cannot escape and/or run off to an entire bitch.
If dogs are castrated before maturity then I do think they do not get the surge of hormones associated with adulthood and therefore do not fully mature mentally or physically, he is a mature dog now so IME this is not a valid point for not castrating.
I also do not understand why anyone breeds any dog currently unless they are a minority breed and they have a waiting list of assessed owners waiting for pups, the rescues are fit to burst with many dogs being PTS daily in the UK.

 

[SusieT]

his head will not change - speak to an educated person e.g. vet regarding neutering .
He looks like a labrador in the pic ? You would want to get him hip, elbow, eye tested before breeding.
If he is other dog aggressive though why would you want to breed that? most dogs are great with the familys kids..

 

[PucciNPoni]

As others have asked, why breed from him? Is he a particularly "excellent specimen" of his breed type? Has he been trialled or worked and gained any special merits in those areas in which you wan to pass on to progeny? Or is he just a lovely chap? Nothing wrong with having cross breeds which are lovely dogs to live with, but IMHO there are so many out there that are like that - particularly of the cross breed varieties. I am not against breeding, even cross breeds. But I think it's really important to consider where the puppies will end up, regardless of whether you have a dog or a bitch. And it's important to consider what your dog may pass on to progeny, good or bad.

Apart from that at 2 years old he's already got his personality and his build. He may gain some weight post neutering but that is all very controllable with correct diet and exercise. He isn't going to lose muscle mass just because he gets castrated. He will lose muscle mass if he isn't properly exercised. Neutering young can make them weedy in appearance.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

My youngsters were neutered at two. The one who humped everything immediately stopped. As yours is interested in females in season and has already run off, I would neuter. It's torture for a dog like that if he's running after in season bitches.

Testosterone helps the growth plates close, so early neutered dogs/horses will actually be potentially taller than unneutered siblings.

I would not breed a cross breed, you cannot predict what the pups would be like and I can't see any decent bitch owner wanting to use an unproven cross, especially given he looks like a lab as opposed to a doodle type. Breeding is fine if you want a pup to show, but a pup may be nothing like the sire, especially with cross breeds. It won't be a clone and the bitch may have a huge litter and you will have zero control where they end up as the dog owner.

The health benefits of either are in the balance, here is a decent study. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Of the two I have that are neutered, one is a skinny wretch, one is a solid creature with a huge head, neither are vaguely feminine or have muscle wastage! They are correctly exercised and fed lots of protein, and this is what decides a dog's musculature, not the neutering. The huge head one was remarked on as a tiny pup as having a massive head. Conformation and genetics are what gives a dog its head shape.

Solid creature on left, unneutered equally solid brown thing in the middle, somewhat skinnier black and white but weighs the same as his brother on the right. Black and whites neutered.

 

[CAYLA]

Your dog will not change in personality, it wont need Prozac or become unrecognisable lol I believe what Alec is possibly trying to describe is that when neutered owners tend to allow their dog to pile on the pounds by not reducing food accordingly they tend to lose that toned and muscular look for flab lol also entire males tend to be stressy/hormonally charged and spend more energy following their sexual urges which in general will allow you to see more pronounced bone and muscle and more often than not they are poorer eaters again no doubt from their raging hormones, I can generally spot an entire male esp terriers (scraggy entires) as I call them lol and I can smell an entire male and the environment it resides (maybe this is because I'm dealing with hundreds of dogs) I have an advantage of seeing entire and castrated in vast numbers so have vast amounts to compare. My castrated males are well muscled because there exercise remained the same and their food reduced accordingly. My castrated deerhound cross is probably in better fettle and more athletically in shape and has more pronounced muscle than our entire deerhound ever had so you can't tell in all. I don't understand how you lost the dog entire or not (but it must be rather stressful for the dog to be constantly following his over whelming need of his over charged hormones) so in fairness I personally would not breed from a mongrel and nor would I allow it to be forever frustrated.....Some people can manage entire dogs some can't, it's as simple as that and then there are those who try to compare their (kennel) dwelling dogs with those living indoors, sorry there is no comparison, your dog is not really a family pet if its a hunting/working dog constantly kept in a kennel and pishing up the bars or cocking their legs freely whilst off lead running on private land rather than up every lamp post they pass on a walk and being kept under lock and key so there frustration is easier to control just saying, try to keep the comparisons real also as suggested by the vet bods, if you are unable to detect the smallest change in testicular size or the or mildest symptoms of prostate or testicular cancer you do risk it spreading well before it's detected. You need to decide what you feel is best and you ability to control your entire dog and the health implications either way.

 

[ashlingm]

Neutered dogs live on average 2-3 years longer than un-neutered pets.

For me, this was the biggest selling point. There are the added health benefits such as reducing and eliminating cancer too, if I can make my dog healthier and live longer then I'm all for it!

I really don't find that it affects personality too much - unless the aggression which is testosterone or hormone related. We have a neutered male dog and he is a super guard dog - neutering made absolutely no difference to him in that sense. I've fostered dogs (10+) in the past and found that their personality very much stayed the same. We neutered from about a year to about 8 years old (rescue policy). As for the weight comment, we always fed according to their activity level and current weight and thus never had a problem with over weight dogs.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Hi,
We have a 2 yr old labradoodle. He is a really fabulous dog. Very handsome, well behaved, and amazing with my boys (6 and 9).

[/URL]
So, apart from an adolescent stage where he was a bit agressive with other dogs ( never biting, just growling), he's really great.
Unfortunately, we have someone in our village who walks their bitch in heat, and somehow he managed to escape, and run up the main rd. Luckily someone caught him and brought him back.
We would really like to breed from him, but would also like an alive dog?
Any advice.

Neuter we were going to breed from out Northern Inuit but there are so many unwanted dogs we had her neutered last week and no regret. Reduces the risk of cancer too

 

[siennamiller]

Wow! Loads of great advice, thanks ��.
Yes, agree with lots of points here. It's me that wants to chop, and husband who doesn't of course!
With regards to breeding, again, it's husband who wants to, although we have already been asked, he is exceptionally handsome ��, photo does not do him justice, but, yes, he is a mongrel.
With regards to behaviour, when I'm out walking him, he is impeccably behaved. I walk him off lead, but he will come back the second I whistle, and sit to be put back on lead.
However, he is definitely getting more anxious, which I did wonder if was down to hormones, he's always been super laid back.
He has a fenced and gated garden, he's obviously found/made a hole, which goes through to the garage next door (currently locked as well, do we haven't found the hole yet as we know he can't get out). We're going to have a look today.

With regards to the weight, he's prone to being slightly under at the mo, but he's working lab X, so has the lean physique more (I may be talking rubbish, but that's what I have been told).
Will show hubby this, and see if he is more inclined.

 

[Nudibranch]

Just to add my experience - our entire was neutered at 6 (only reason he wasn't done before is that he had absolutely no interest in other dogs, bejng a somewhat nervous mummys boy of a dachshund). We have an entire saluki bitch now though so they had to come off. It has made not a jot of difference to his temperament or appearance. They are inclined to swap muscle for flab due to a lack of testosterone, but as mentioned, correct feeding and exercise will minimise this.
If he's anxious, it'll be doing him a favour

 

[Leo Walker]

Actually if hes anxious it could cause huge problems. The sudden drop in testosterone can make things like that much, much worse.

Have you thought about getting him an implant? Mine had it as 2.5yr old as we werent sure if his behaviour was mental or physical. It lasted nearly 18 months in him, big whippet size. Its supposed to last 6 months, so probably wont last that long in a bigger dog. It gives you the chance to see if neutering will make a difference and is something you want to do or not. We decided not in the end

I used to have a really good link that showed the pros and cons in a very balanced way. I cant find it now though typically! Do some reasearch of your own. I found this at the top of a google search, there was lots more info out there, if you can work out which are the reliable sources

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_24534195/neuter-your-dog-or-not-new-studies-change

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Wow! Loads of great advice, thanks ��.
Yes, agree with lots of points here. It's me that wants to chop, and husband who doesn't of course!
With regards to breeding, again, it's husband who wants to, although we have already been asked, he is exceptionally handsome ��, photo does not do him justice, but, yes, he is a mongrel.
With regards to behaviour, when I'm out walking him, he is impeccably behaved. I walk him off lead, but he will come back the second I whistle, and sit to be put back on lead.
However, he is definitely getting more anxious, which I did wonder if was down to hormones, he's always been super laid back.
He has a fenced and gated garden, he's obviously found/made a hole, which goes through to the garage next door (currently locked as well, do we haven't found the hole yet as we know he can't get out). We're going to have a look today.

With regards to the weight, he's prone to being slightly under at the mo, but he's working lab X, so has the lean physique more (I may be talking rubbish, but that's what I have been told).
Will show hubby this, and see if he is more inclined.

It was hubby mainly here who wanted to breed to make money, the dog albeit good looking as she is a northern Inuit has no sense very destructible. I am not prepared to have 9 puppies to look after clean and take to the vet, hubby would do none of it and me all of it. That is unfair on me so I cokes him into the spaying, I can breath a sigh of relief now.

The idea of 9 + puppies would send me over the edge

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Neutered dogs live on average 2-3 years longer than un-neutered pets.

For me, this was the biggest selling point. There are the added health benefits such as reducing and eliminating cancer too, if I can make my dog healthier and live longer then I'm all for it!

I really don't find that it affects personality too much - unless the aggression which is testosterone or hormone related.

Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this.

Re testicular cancer, there are studies aplenty which show that th health benefits are equivalent for both arguments: testicular cancer is only one reason to neuter and is a minuscule percentage.

Aggression is not necessarily linked to hormones, my extremely DA dog has not changed his behaviour towards other dogs despite being neutered.

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
&#8226; reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
&#8226; reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
&#8226; may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
&#8226; increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
&#8226; triples the risk of hypothyroidism
&#8226; increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
&#8226; triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
&#8226; quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
&#8226; doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
&#8226; increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
&#8226; increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

 

[{97702}]

Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this.

Re testicular cancer, there are studies aplenty which show that th health benefits are equivalent for both arguments: testicular cancer is only one reason to neuter and is a minuscule percentage.

Aggression is not necessarily linked to hormones, my extremely DA dog has not changed his behaviour towards other dogs despite being neutered.

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

S**t I'd better not show this to my boy..... done at 5 1/2 as soon as he came off the track!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Hey Lév, you ok? I think, as I mentioned further up, genetics play a large part. Some lines are more prone to certain things and the percentages quoted are very small.

I always grit my teeth when testicular cancer is mentioned-the numbers are very insignificant and yet it's regularly dragged up as the definitive reason to neuter.