To neuter, or not?

[{97702}]

I'm doing surprisingly OK thanks CT Mainly due to throwing myself into too much dog walking/horse riding/running to occupy myself.... and the odd glass of wine

I suppose having rescues, where I don't have a choice about neutering, I try not to think about the downsides of it - certainly the last time I had a lurcher puppy (many years ago) it didn't occur to me to neuter him, he had zero bitch-chasing tendencies etc

 

[Fools Motto]

Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? I only have bitches personally for this very reason and I get them spayed. The world is full of unwanted dogs. And, even if you did breed, perhaps only the once, then surely this would encourage even more 'manly' behaviour?
I'm sure he would remain the 'same' if he were done, so it's a no-brainer from me!

On a side note, if dog owners blame the 'walking the bitch' as an excuse for their dog running off, then I think you need to re-think. I do, and will continue to walk my girl, when she comes on heat (first and only time as still young). They will still need their exercise.

 

[Alec Swan]

Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? …….. .

You'd think so, wouldn't you, but in reality, the reverse is so often the case.

Alec.

 

[Fools Motto]

You'd think so, wouldn't you, but in reality, the reverse is so often the case.

Alec.

Someone said to me, it is like a man, who is either not had a girlfriend, or isn't with lady... they want it, but it isn't there to have... so to relieve their desires, they help themselves... natural to us as a human race, but dogs will either hump pillows or human legs, or go wandering, and if that is taken away from them, they often (but agree, probably not with 100%) get cross, and labelled 'difficult'?
But, as I have never had a male dog, don't have first hand experience, just hear stories...

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
&#8226; reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
&#8226; reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
&#8226; may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
&#8226; increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
&#8226; triples the risk of hypothyroidism
&#8226; increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
&#8226; triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
&#8226; quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
&#8226; doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
&#8226; increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
&#8226; increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

I saw the same link, but wonder at its value, regardless of my stance. When we talk of single percentages or even fractions, the figures offered are really an irrelevance. The risks of the various male-focussed cancers are so few and far between that we can discard the whole argument, regardless of the direction.

Without testicles, all males will go through strident changes, and weight gain with a loss of muscle definition is all but guaranteed.

A dog which wanders or is aggressive pre-castration will be no different, and the same can be said for those dogs which would shag a shadow.

It still seems to me that the bulk of those vets who suggest castration of dogs as an answer to any problems will be very well aware of one fact; Castration will only prevent a dog from siring pups, and honestly, that's it. It's the limit to any benefit.

As for protecting the in-season bitches belonging to others from becoming pregnant, do those on here of that view, also castrate their sons to protect the local girls? The suggestion of responsibility for siring unwanted pups has to be approaching ridiculous!

Alec.

 

[Possum]

I have a 2 year old entire male dog as a family pet.

He's beautifully behaved with people and other dogs, marks a lot but that wouldn't change with neutering at his age. He doesn't 'hump' anything, make any attempt at roaming or escaping and unless you had a feel you wouldn't know.

IMO the marginal potential health benefits of neutering are outweighed by the negatives - obviously the operation required, the fact it takes away the option that I might be able to show him at a later date and the likelihood that it would ruin his coat.

I've always had bitches spayed, but definitely believe in deciding for the boys on a dog-by-dog basis.

 

[Alec Swan]

&#8230;&#8230;.. Someone said to me, &#8230;&#8230;..
But, as I have never had a male dog, don't have first hand experience, just hear stories...

Someone said to you &#8230;.. were I you, I'd ignore them! If a dog is given to humping pillows or human legs, he will continue doing that, regardless of the supply of, or lack of, accommodating bitches. Some of the very best behaved dogs (in that department), are the experienced stud dogs, even though they may go a year or more between coverings. It's also true that the air-humpers continue after castration, and sometimes for ever, because testosterone isn't just produced from testicles.

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

Our terriers were all entire, tbf only one lived in the house the rest were kennelled but they never humped anything, yes they cocked their legs out on walks but sdon't all dogs? (I have never had a neutered male!).
Our 7 year old spayed bitch humps the air when she meets her favourite dog (he is entire) so what should I do with her?

 

[madmav]

A veteran old man of this house had his whipped off when he was 6 months, I thought it would help with his mentally mad behaviour. Didn't sort that at all. But he is now 15 and still going strong. Not mental any more, old age finally sorted that. He was the one you shouldn't get, runt of the litter, but he also has defied that piece of advice.
I would always castrate unless you're in the dog breeding business. Seems a much better outcome for everyone.

 

[Alec Swan]

&#8230;&#8230;..

Our 7 year old spayed bitch humps the air when she meets her favourite dog (he is entire) so what should I do with her?

Remove a pair of suitably shaped Christmas decorations, from your tree and then tape them to the underside of her dock.

Alec.

 

[siennamiller]

I should add, he does not hump anything, and only marks when out walking off the lead. He has gone through his adolescent phase with other dogs, and is very well behaved. He's a really lovely dog, just seems a bit anxious sometimes, but I blame husband for that too! Does not lead him (as in be in charge), so I think the dog worries that he has to look after him.

 

[Leo Walker]

Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs?

Not in my case. He is a very lovely sunny natured dog anyway, but as someone who has had him entire, then neutered to all intents and purposes then entire again, hes never shown any interest in bitches, rabbits, hell yeah! bitches, nope The reason he was chemically castrated is he started weeing when we left him alone, hence us thinking it might be a testosterone problem. Turns out it was just the last remnants of an horrific separation anxiety which we thought we had dealt with a young dog, but resurfaced, brought on by a huge change in house/area/lifestyle. It hasnt resurfaced since hes more settled and the implant ran out.

Interestingly he got more ar*ey with other dogs when the implant was in effect, but that seems to have been caused by the implant effectively neutering him and other dogs picking fights with him, not that hes ever cared either way The one thing I will say, is that when hes stressed, he always has and probably always will hump cushions or his beloved fluffy toys. He tried it with the cat once, never tried it again :lol: Its not a sexual behaviour, its when something unsettles him, and he trots off and air humps a cushion. Very, very rarely happens, but he did it with and without the implant

 

[Leo Walker]

I should add, he does not hump anything, and only marks when out walking off the lead. He has gone through his adolescent phase with other dogs, and is very well behaved. He's a really lovely dog, just seems a bit anxious sometimes, but I blame husband for that too! Does not lead him (as in be in charge), so I think the dog worries that he has to look after him.

Please think very long and hard about neutering, and do your research on what can happen. The sudden drop in testosterone can cause huge problems with a dog thats a bit prone to anxiety for whatever reason. It reads like the only reason you want to neuter him as he got out, presumably chasing after bitches. Can you not secure him so he cant do that? And look into the implant. If it works, then go for neutering when it runs out, if it doesnt then you know theres other issues

 

[ashlingm]

Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this.

The University of Georgia published a paper supporting this. It's called "do spayed and neutered dogs live longer?" or something along those lines. I can root it out and forward it on if you are interested?

I did a quick scan on veterinary journals and came across this -
"Looking at a sample of 40,139 death records from the Veterinary Medical Database from 1984-2004, researchers determined the average age at death for intact dogs -- dogs that had not been spayed or neutered -- was 7.9 years versus 9.4 years for sterilized dogs. The results of the study were published April 17 in PLOS ONE.

 

[Emilieu]

Our dog marked all over the house and humped everything. I kept reading that neutering might not actually change that so kept putting off having it done. Eventually we couldn't cope with the marking and went for it. He has never marked anything since and no longer humps pillows etc. So glad we did it. Roaming wasn't an issue for us but i can see why that would push you towards the decision.
It worked for us.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Without testicles, all males will go through strident changes, and weight gain with a loss of muscle definition is all but guaranteed.

But that simply isn't true, Alec. Look at the pic I put of my three. B/w spanner on the left is cut, look at the muscle definition. He is a solid lump of muscle, in serious danger of knocking me flying currently. He swims, runs, is fed a raw diet and is not fat unless I over feed him. His brother is equally muscled and very carefully exercised/monitored due to the dysplasia.

As for protecting the in-season bitches belonging to others from becoming pregnant, do those on here of that view, also castrate their sons to protect the local girls? The suggestion of responsibility for siring unwanted pups has to be approaching ridiculous!

Alec.

Crikey, Alec, one would hope that the humans would have half a brain and not run after girls in the way a testosterone fuelled dog would! You do say some odd things! Humans (most, thank god) have self control. Dogs do not, the urge to procreate is overwhelming.

The University of Georgia published a paper supporting this. It's called "do spayed and neutered dogs live longer?" or something along those lines. I can root it out and forward it on if you are interested?

I did a quick scan on veterinary journals and came across this -
"Looking at a sample of 40,139 death records from the Veterinary Medical Database from 1984-2004, researchers determined the average age at death for intact dogs -- dogs that had not been spayed or neutered -- was 7.9 years versus 9.4 years for sterilized dogs. The results of the study were published April 17 in PLOS ONE.

That would be good, thanks. Trouble is, one needs to look at environmental factors, care throughout the dog's life and manner of death to see if there are direct links. As a crazy 'food is all important' for dogs fiend, that would be my first port of call when looking at length of life, not so much whether a dog is neutered. Did the study include bitches or just dogs, do you know?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? I only have bitches personally for this very reason and I get them spayed. The world is full of unwanted dogs. And, even if you did breed, perhaps only the once, then surely this would encourage even more 'manly' behaviour?
I'm sure he would remain the 'same' if he were done, so it's a no-brainer from me!

On a side note, if dog owners blame the 'walking the bitch' as an excuse for their dog running off, then I think you need to re-think. I do, and will continue to walk my girl, when she comes on heat (first and only time as still young). They will still need their exercise.

We have had several Labrador dogs and bitches, all of which were entire. Some were escape artists, others weren't. The answer is not to neuter but to make your garden escape proof. We have always beeen careful where we walk in-season bitches, as we don't want dogs following us home, if thier irresponsible owners allow them out unaccompanied.
n.b. We did consider spaying our (current) Rottweiler bitches, for various reasons until I read that American research shows that spayed bitches have a higher incidence of cancer than entires.

I wouldn't want to breed from a 'Labradoodle', as you have no real clue as to what the pups will be. OP's dog is very handsome though!

 

[planete]

I totally agree with the view that if your dog, or any dog, can escape from your premises, you first need to make them escape proof. A far better use of money than inflicting an unnecessary major operation on a happy, well-behaved dog.

I have kept several of my male dogs intact over the years and not one of them has marked indoors, humped, been aggressive, run off or suffered health problems that could be even remotely linked to not being neutered. Perhaps I have been lucky but I cannot see how I could have justified castrating them.

 

[Alec Swan]

&#8230;&#8230;..

Crikey, Alec, one would hope that the humans would have half a brain and not run after girls in the way a testosterone fuelled dog would! You do say some odd things! Humans (most, thank god) have self control. Dogs do not, the urge to procreate is overwhelming.

&#8230;&#8230;..

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, and was followed by a smilie, as is this!

Testosterone fuelled young males, be they two legged or four, generally have only one thing on their minds, from memory!

Alec.

 

[Katikins]

Not in my case. He is a very lovely sunny natured dog anyway, but as someone who has had him entire, then neutered to all intents and purposes then entire again, hes never shown any interest in bitches, rabbits, hell yeah! bitches, nope The reason he was chemically castrated is he started weeing when we left him alone, hence us thinking it might be a testosterone problem. Turns out it was just the last remnants of an horrific separation anxiety which we thought we had dealt with a young dog, but resurfaced, brought on by a huge change in house/area/lifestyle. It hasnt resurfaced since hes more settled and the implant ran out.

Interestingly he got more ar*ey with other dogs when the implant was in effect, but that seems to have been caused by the implant effectively neutering him and other dogs picking fights with him, not that hes ever cared either way The one thing I will say, is that when hes stressed, he always has and probably always will hump cushions or his beloved fluffy toys. He tried it with the cat once, never tried it again :lol: Its not a sexual behaviour, its when something unsettles him, and he trots off and air humps a cushion. Very, very rarely happens, but he did it with and without the implant

Really interesting to read this as we opted for the implant for our 1.5 year old whippet male about 6 weeks ago. He's a total mummy's boy and gets separation anxiety and started peeing on the table legs etc at home as well as being destructive. He has calmed down a lot now the implant is fully working but there was about a week where he got really ars*y with other dogs too. We will see how things go before making a decision on whether to make it permanent - but he also has excellent recall and actually recalled perfectly this weekend from an in-heat bitch so I'm less worried about that side of things.

It is always worth looking at other factors as well as I'm 6 months pregnant and we are aware that this could have an impact on his behaviour.

Interestingly I was also totally pro neutering (still am for females and our whippet bitch is done) but over here (Netherlands) the standard vet advice is NOT to castrate males unless there is a valid medical/behavourial reason. Hence why our vet suggested the implant so we could actually see if lower testosterone would actually help the behaviour and hopefully get him to chill out a bit more. I think he's also put on a little bit of weight since we got the implant in but that is definitely a good thing as he's leaner than I would ideally like (and I prefer my animals lean than fat).

This is a picture from Christmas Day, he's looking a little less lean here due to the way his body is bent but you get the gist.

 

[PucciNPoni]

I totally agree with the view that if your dog, or any dog, can escape from your premises, you first need to make them escape proof. A far better use of money than inflicting an unnecessary major operation on a happy, well-behaved dog.

I have kept several of my male dogs intact over the years and not one of them has marked indoors, humped, been aggressive, run off or suffered health problems that could be even remotely linked to not being neutered. Perhaps I have been lucky but I cannot see how I could have justified castrating them.

It's a bit of a cultural thing too - in the US many pets are neutered as a matter of course. Found it really interesting when I first moved here how many entire pets there were. Many people in certain countries round Europe keep stallions for riding horses, and never bred from and treat them like other horses. While here in the UK it's almost unheard of.

It comes down to how a person manages their animals, whether they keep a mixed pack of males and females and whether or not they are particularly useful at training them. In my line of work, I see so many untrained badly behaved pets - and while I don't recommend neutering in place of TRAINING, I do think that sometimes that neutering can at least help some folk get on the right track for training once the hormones aren't running amok. But then I think some PEOPLE need neutered, but that's a whole other story...

 

[Leo Walker]

Really interesting to read this as we opted for the implant for our 1.5 year old whippet male about 6 weeks ago. He's a total mummy's boy and gets separation anxiety and started peeing on the table legs etc at home as well as being destructive. He has calmed down a lot now the implant is fully working but there was about a week where he got really ars*y with other dogs too. We will see how things go before making a decision on whether to make it permanent - but he also has excellent recall and actually recalled perfectly this weekend from an in-heat bitch so I'm less worried about that side of things.

It is always worth looking at other factors as well as I'm 6 months pregnant and we are aware that this could have an impact on his behaviour.

Interestingly I was also totally pro neutering (still am for females and our whippet bitch is done) but over here (Netherlands) the standard vet advice is NOT to castrate males unless there is a valid medical/behavourial reason. Hence why our vet suggested the implant so we could actually see if lower testosterone would actually help the behaviour and hopefully get him to chill out a bit more. I think he's also put on a little bit of weight since we got the implant in but that is definitely a good thing as he's leaner than I would ideally like (and I prefer my animals lean than fat).

Mine sounds very similar to yours. Adores me, spoilt, and a bit of a drama queen princess. All the negative behaviours stopped about 2 months into having the implant and havent resurfaced. Not sure why, other than it probably broke the cycle.

I forgot that mine actually got a bit chubby and we had to cut his food right back. When the implant ran out he lost an alarming amount of weight, and is back on the ridiculous portions he always had.

 

[Alec Swan]

I would be very concerned at our usage of 'implants' as a way of controlling our dogs behaviour, natural instincts or demeanour.

When ever we stick a needle into an animal, there's a price to pay, and to reinforce the point, I understand that the trainer Paul Nichols (presumably upon veterinary advice) has brought forward his annual vaccinating regime and with disastrous consequences.

Not all veterinary advice should be taken as gospel.

Alec.

 

[Dobermonkey]

I personally think they have their place when people are 'strongly advised' to neuter for behavioural 'issues which could actually cause more problems. The suprelorin implant stops testosterone production whereas the tardak injection mimics female hormones (from what I have read up on). I do not think it is right to use them as a substitute for training or responsible ownership

 

[StableMum]

My dog is nearly six and entire. I had intended to get him castrated but he has never been any trouble and I am very aware that a general anaesthetic is not without risk. However I did worry that people might judge me for not doing the 'right thing' (he's not purebred). My daughter is a vet and the other day put my mind at rest by saying that as my boy is sensitive, he needs his bits for bravery! It would do him no good to loose the testosterone and he could become anxious.
So I'm quite happy with my decision to leave well alone. I would hate to do something to him that would cause him to be less happy than he is now.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I was told that the implant (one of the two, sorry, can't remember which) brings about a greatly increased risk of testicular cancer later in life, hence I didn't go for it when considering how to help Zak's behaviour.

My 12 year old entire boy has never evinced the slightest interest in bitches and I never considered neutering him. I don't think the benefits are convincing enough.

 

[Dobermonkey]

Suprelorin is the implant. Tardak the injection. The implant stops testosterone and their bobbies actually shrink. My boy is 9 with all his bits. He's never been overly interested in the ladies bar the odd 'happy hump' when he's super excited playing with his friends.

 

[Leo Walker]

It does it you continually use it, as it stops all testosterone, and their bits literally shrivel. The boy is sporting a fine pair again now though :lol:

 

[brighteyes]

This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.

 

[planete]

This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.

Well, I am definitely female and none of my dogs have looked remotely distressed even when they have met in season females. Interested but quickly reminded of their manners and moved on willingly enough. What I sometimes think is that some women are so used to male dogs without their bits they experience a 'yuk!' reaction when they see a pair dangling between a dog' s hind legs!