To Stallion or not to Stallion...

Firstly I would like to say that I have read this whole thread and your tone, HedgePig, comes across as pretty patronising. All anyone has tried to do is offer their opinion on the situation which is what you asked for in your opening post?

“The owner, however, has turned down offers over the years to buy him and is clear he believes I am right for his horse and he is currently not being used to his potential and that I will help him realise it. He believes this which compelled him to ask me.”

I’m struggling to get my head around why a veteran of the Vienna school would think it would be a good idea to sell his very highly trained horse to a person who hasn’t ridden in 20 years. Someone he hasn’t seen ride and has no verification of their riding ability? Were you a top international rider before you stopped riding?
This horse is one that has received the highest classical training and yet needs a rider to come out of a 20 year break to help it realise its potential?

At the very least it sounds like a scam, sorry.
 
HP,for what it's worth, I can only repeat what I wrote before. I honestly see no difference in riding a very well-trained stallion to any other horse.......presuming that he has good manners, and you are confident enough to match those manners, and not allow them to slip. (As they can do with any horse, but especially a strong, confident horse. Horses are always trying to climb up the ladder, and possibly stallions more than geldings and mares.) But, to be honest, one of the worst mannered horses I ever came across was a gelding which would go for anyone who went in it's stable. I have had dealings with a lot of horses, and, sadly, most of them were kept in a stable most of the time. If you have found the right yard, then you don't have a problem keeping him as a stallion. But you do need to get over your pre-conceived idea that all stallions are too much for most people to ride. (I regularly rode a stallion.) If broken in with kindness, you will have a kind horse. I think it will all depend on what you feel for/about the horse after you have ridden him. And don't underestimate your own ability. Well-trained horses are usually a dream to ride, so long as they are ridden with confidence and kindness. They tend to react to the smallest touch of leg and hands.....you might find this disconcerting.....you might find it wonderful. I certainly, if I was about 40 years younger!! (before a riding accident ended my career with horses) would jump at the chance. The horse in my avatar was an ott TB.....I hadn't ridden properly in about 10 years when I bought him.....he dropped me the first day, and the second (not his fault) and after that, I gradually found the core I had lost and we became a team. I hope you have fun on him at the weekend. Enjoy!! (Even if you back out.) And, yes, the offer for you to have the horse after not riding for 20 years sounds a bit iffy. But I hadn't ridden for 10 years and it was probably bloody obvious to those who saw me test ride a few horses. (I had to use a riding block.....legs not strong enough to mount from the ground.) But they allowed me to try their horses, and in the end I bought the one horse that looked (to others) to be the worst for me. But I followed my gut feeling that this ott TB which couldn't walk anywhere (took me a year to teach him to walk and not jog) was an honest horse who'd been treated....not badly as such, but not right.....and it was a decision which saved my soul. xx
 
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Leo Walker said:
You seem to be taking what you want from posts and replying with lengthy wordy replies, but blatantly ignoring the main points.

Keeping a stallion on a livery yard is beyond difficult. I am stunned that you managed to ring up, find a yard that takes stallions AND has a space available all in a couple of hours. The one person I know stupid enough to try and keep a stallion on livery struggles massively. Yards dont want the extra hassle involved.

There is no need to keep this horse entire. You seem to have some weird romanticised notion of what this horse will be. Its just a horse thats has some schooling. It may indeed carry outstanding and rare blood lines, but I cant imagine there is any call for them given there are only 250 pure and part bred lippizaners in total in the UK. If they are highly desirable then collect semen and then geld.

And whether you like it or not this situation is fishy. In fact its downright unbelievable.

A very experienced trainer with a much loved and precious horse who he has invested huge amounts of time and effort in likes you so much has chosen you to buy it, even though it wasnt for sale.

Hes turned down other homes, but decided your home, which doesnt even exist as of yet and may never exist due to the aforementioned livery yard issue, is so perfect, and you are such an absolutely perfect match for this horse, even though he has no idea if you can even ride, and this is all because you get on really well.

I get on really well with lots of people. I wouldnt sell them my horse though. I certainly wouldnt do it having never seen them ride or handle a horse.

This just doesnt ring true.
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Hi Leo and yes you’re right. A lot of this has been a series of posts speculating wildly on things I have not said and have subsequently been repeated as fact.

This is simply not true.

I didn’t think it was necessary to get into the nuts and bolts of it because my question was about owning a stallion.
Now it’s a pretty spectacular pile on but I’m not so fragile that I’m going to rush off and spend a huge amount of money to give clarity.

I’m sorry if you are finding it hard to believe. I did pick up the phone and speak with a yard who knows the horse who agreed to look at taking it. Which is exactly what I said. I’m struggling to see any upside for me being in here and making it up when the abuse appears to be cranking up rather than going away. I’m telling you I phoned a yard and they said they would consider taking a stallion. If I happen to just have been brutally lucky with my call then why can’t this be seen as a positive by you?

You’re right though. I’m hopelessly poorly informed here, spectacularly out of my depth and this has all been a rather poor judgement of mine.

Thank you for your troubling to read and reply to this thread. Hedge.
 
I think this could be a scam. I’d suggest you have some a trainer/neutral equestrian friend come with you for a look at the horse.

However in regards to the horse’s gender, I firmly believe that ANY horse can be temperamental, mare, stallion, gelding, colt, filly.... it depends on handling, much like a dog. Now I think they need proper handling, but enforcing fear only makes the issue worse when around the stallion, as they’d react. I don’t know where you’re located p, but you could consider looking for “classes” to handle stallions. I’ve heard some nice things about Spanish studs. I wish you luck😀😀!!
 
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Lammy said:
Firstly I would like to say that I have read this whole thread and your tone, HedgePig, comes across as pretty patronising. All anyone has tried to do is offer their opinion on the situation which is what you asked for in your opening post?

“The owner, however, has turned down offers over the years to buy him and is clear he believes I am right for his horse and he is currently not being used to his potential and that I will help him realise it. He believes this which compelled him to ask me.”

I’m struggling to get my head around why a veteran of the Vienna school would think it would be a good idea to sell his very highly trained horse to a person who hasn’t ridden in 20 years. Someone he hasn’t seen ride and has no verification of their riding ability? Were you a top international rider before you stopped riding?
This horse is one that has received the highest classical training and yet needs a rider to come out of a 20 year break to help it realise its potential?

At the very least it sounds like a scam, sorry.
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When you write it like that it sounds awful. You’re right. But it’s inconsistent with how this has developed and it seems to have turned into something it is not.

I have admitted I’m out of my depth and not well informed. I asked about stallions and I tried to paint a picture of how I see it, as a privilege and it’s been taken as some kind of myth. I am truly sorry for how this has gone I don’t know you but I’m defending myself from you for reasons I’m not clear on.
If it is a scam I have been warned off it. Thank you. Hedge.

edit: The owner did say he has had offers and that he had turned them down. I did not feel it was appropriate to ask what the offers were nor why he had chosen to do so. They may have been riders he knew to be cruel. They may have been stupid lowballs. Yet my repeating only what he said is twisted to mean something it is not. I’m honestly sorry this is how this has gone.
 
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It does seem odd that this horse has been offered to you when you haven't ridden for 20 years. But we don't know you, or the nuances of the agreement. I was told never to ride again because a fall could kill me. I fell off quite a few times, and wasn't killed. (And the falls weren't the horses fault.) If you are confident that you can handle a stallion then I don't see why not....if you have the right set-up at the livery yard, because he can't be kept in all the time. Please let us know how you get on at the weekend.
 
If you had posted a short thread asking some basic questions about the logistics of keeping a stallion on a livery yard without all the unnecessary background, details about the trainer, the horse, your girlfriend, about pre's when this horse is a lippi etc you would have had more simple replies most of which would have said it may be hard to find a good yard that will offer a stallion a decent life with safe enough turn out and that if you do not have your own premises gelding it may be a kinder and easier option for you both.

As it is you wrote one of the longest first threads I have ever seen, most of which was barely relevant, almost immediately found livery for him and then became offended when questioned as some of us felt the story didn't ring true, all of the replies were meant well, we are generally helpful but are also used to reading about tales of woe where people are scammed so can be a bit cynical at times, I hope it is genuine, that he is the horse for you and you find a decent livery yard where he can lead a nice life as a horse should, stallion or otherwise.
 
dree said:
It does seem odd that this horse has been offered to you when you haven't ridden for 20 years. But we don't know you, or the nuances of the agreement. I was told never to ride again because a fall could kill me. I fell off quite a few times, and wasn't killed. (And the falls weren't the horses fault.) If you are confident that you can handle a stallion then I don't see why not....if you have the right set-up at the livery yard, because he can't be kept in all the time. Please let us know how you get on at the weekend.
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Dree thank you. This has been made out to be some dark corridor deal when it couldn’t be further from the truth. We have known each other a long time and I must have said 15 times that there is already a very experienced rider in the family who the owner knows well. I don’t come on my own I have an experienced rider in my team who owns her own horse and has been riding since the age of 6 or something. The owner knows this but it’s been lost in the speculation.
Yet there is this weird obsession with the last time I rode somehow counting for everything.

I’m excited about meeting him. I have taken the expertise of others in here on board as much as I can where the bottom line feels like: if you’re having to rely on a livery in this that is a mistake. Which pretty much kills the idea dead in the water.

Thank you for your kindness and willingness to accept I’m trying to be as honest as I can based on a very initial discussion. Hedge.
 
be positive said:
If you had posted a short thread asking some basic questions about the logistics of keeping a stallion on a livery yard without all the unnecessary background, details about the trainer, the horse, your girlfriend, about pre's when this horse is a lippi etc you would have had more simple replies most of which would have said it may be hard to find a good yard that will offer a stallion a decent life with safe enough turn out and that if you do not have your own premises gelding it may be a kinder and easier option for you both.

As it is you wrote one of the longest first threads I have ever seen, most of which was barely relevant, almost immediately found livery for him and then became offended when questioned as some of us felt the story didn't ring true, all of the replies were meant well, we are generally helpful but are also used to reading about tales of woe where people are scammed so can be a bit cynical at times, I hope it is genuine, that he is the horse for you and you find a decent livery yard where he can lead a nice life as a horse should, stallion or otherwise.
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That’s gracious of you and very much appreciated bp.
I have tried to set out my circumstances as best I can, but for some reason small inconsistencies have been amplified to mean something they are not. Is actually a very great pity as I’ve been left a little shocked.
But I’m also a big boy and quite willing to lock horns (as you have seen) so if you have become the unwilling opposite for my frustration at being misrepresented then I actually do apologise.
Thank you for your replies. I suggest I’m going to leave this thread, it’s done very little to help me understand the potential risks and I am sorry for how it has evidently upset you and others. Hedge.
 
It has not upset anyone as far as I can see, certainly not me, it has explained the main risk of owning a stallion repeatedly, number one finding the right yard, there are not really any other risks, a stallion is a horse and there are risks with all horses which are much the same whatever the sex, being treated properly, living in the right environment are the main criteria for all.
I am not sure what other risks you perceive that are requiring answers that have not been fully covered, you can investigate breeding from him, it has already explained that he can go and have semen collected at a properly equipped facility, natural covering is not really an option unless he goes away for the breeding season or the yard you livery at has a suitable set up for visiting mares, most will not be able to cater for this and you would need to give serious consideration as to whether it is viable for what would be your riding horse.
 
I think the least you can do is go and meet the horse and ride him Sunday. Ensure you take someone with you who is experienced, you said your gf has lessons could you take her instructor?

Have them ride the horse and if they feel he's safe have a ride yourself (could you ride something before you go see him to get back into the swing of it) it may feel like you're sat on a ticking time bomb and you dont feel safe and so dont pursue further so everything else is irrelevant but nothing to be lost by looking

If this guy is so desperate for you to have him, he should be understanding about you going back a couple of times- test the horse in different situations

Make sure you visit the livery yard you've spoken to on the phone and confirm, if possible backed up by something in writing they are definitely prepared to have him and what their plans are for his management eg turn out etc. Be prepared to pay a deposit to secure his place especially if you've had a couple of viewings and still want him

IF you decide to proceed, based on people on here raising the scam possibility, as this isn't a typical sale I'd want a full contract in place- if you're having lessons with this guy to "pay" for the horse at what point does he become yours? What if it's at the end of the lesson period who is responsible for anything that happens to the horse during that time eg will he be on full loan to you or will he be "yours" from day 1? What if you dont like or agree with the guy's teaching methods? What if you want to collect and store semen of the horse will this be yours to sell as you want? What if you want to geld him? Obviously if he is yours from day 1 you can do what you like but I dont know if the lesson thing will count as a sale you may have to pay £1 as a token and get a receipt, obviously you may be paying a deposit say then using the lessons to pay off the "mortgage" rather than just having the lessons pay for him. I would definitely get everything in writing then perhaps seek legal advice just to check everything is in place- pretty sure people on here have said BHS gold members get free legal advice but stand to be corrected?

I would still have the horse vetted if I chose to go ahead as once he's yours you're the one stuck with the cost of any issues down the line. Get bloods done.

However none of this is relevant if you go try the horse and dont like him. That is your first step.

I wonder if he is infertile or has a degenerative condition which may be why he's suddenly not of as much value to a breeder so he's trying to rehome him

I'd be interested to know how Sunday goes like others have said
 
@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such.

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice.

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution.

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to visit the sellers yard or meet the horse. Again, caution should be maintained here. No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn. This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years. I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear. To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for £500. A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for £1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed. Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time.

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale. I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay. She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it. She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail? For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like. Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned. All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable.

Again I see no need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard. If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire. Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him. The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent.

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'. I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible. In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here.

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature. As you should already know it is all in the management and handling. Those that have potential and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut. There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder. But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
I think the least you can do is go and meet the horse and ride him Sunday. Ensure you take someone with you who is experienced, you said your gf has lessons could you take her instructor?

Have them ride the horse and if they feel he's safe have a ride yourself (could you ride something before you go see him to get back into the swing of it) it may feel like you're sat on a ticking time bomb and you dont feel safe and so dont pursue further so everything else is irrelevant but nothing to be lost by looking

If this guy is so desperate for you to have him, he should be understanding about you going back a couple of times- test the horse in different situations

Make sure you visit the livery yard you've spoken to on the phone and confirm, if possible backed up by something in writing they are definitely prepared to have him and what their plans are for his management eg turn out etc. Be prepared to pay a deposit to secure his place especially if you've had a couple of viewings and still want him

IF you decide to proceed, based on people on here raising the scam possibility, as this isn't a typical sale I'd want a full contract in place- if you're having lessons with this guy to "pay" for the horse at what point does he become yours? What if it's at the end of the lesson period who is responsible for anything that happens to the horse during that time eg will he be on full loan to you or will he be "yours" from day 1? What if you dont like or agree with the guy's teaching methods? What if you want to collect and store semen of the horse will this be yours to sell as you want? What if you want to geld him? Obviously if he is yours from day 1 you can do what you like but I dont know if the lesson thing will count as a sale you may have to pay £1 as a token and get a receipt, obviously you may be paying a deposit say then using the lessons to pay off the "mortgage" rather than just having the lessons pay for him. I would definitely get everything in writing then perhaps seek legal advice just to check everything is in place- pretty sure people on here have said BHS gold members get free legal advice but stand to be corrected?

I would still have the horse vetted if I chose to go ahead as once he's yours you're the one stuck with the cost of any issues down the line. Get bloods done.

However none of this is relevant if you go try the horse and dont like him. That is your first step.

I wonder if he is infertile or has a degenerative condition which may be why he's suddenly not of as much value to a breeder so he's trying to rehome him

I'd be interested to know how Sunday goes like others have said
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Hi CCL and thanks for your reply.

The owner IS my gf instructor. :)
This is why I know he knows us and the type of riders we have in the family. A quick other point he is absolutely not desperate to sell him to me, he suggested it might be a good fit given he knows my gf well, knows how experienced she is and to some extent knows me.
Your other points are excellent. I’ve only just today spoken to the yard, not the yard owner. We have ridden there a few times but I have a lot more to do before I feel comfortable that a livery deal has been done.

I’ll try to explain how it came about in more detail so it doesn’t sound like it’s been portrayed by others:
I’ve known him and his horse for a long time. He has been teaching my gf for a good while so knows she is competent and safe.
I asked him some time ago to look out for a horse for me. His horse was never an option. The last time we met for a beer we were chatting about horses and about a longer term training program for my partner. All perfectly normal. It was then that I said it might make sense to agree a retainer or something that included my training when I found a suitable horse. A few hours went by and he suggested me and my gf might be a good fit for his horse. And that I should meet him. We touched on price (people seem to have taken it that he’s a bargain?) when I might think think he’s worth 100,000 and we spoke about 50,000. It wasn’t these numbers but you get the idea? Then we chatted about the training costs and that’s where we left it.

Now understand in my mind this all makes sense. A surprise for sure but no red lights.
My question was about the suitability of a stallion. And I’ve been put off it by the replies in here.
I would certainly do exactly as you have said and get it legally clear. Have a vet involved and ensure there is nothing hidden. All quite normal to do.
What’s unusual is just the stallion bit.

He may be an antisocial nutter. But for the moment it doesn’t really matter as I’ve dropped to 30% odds on following through.

I’ll be happy to dm you in person once I’ve met him if you like? In the meantime I’ve asked the mods to remove this thread. It’s all a bit unpleasant and I’ve been made out to be a liar for things like finding a livery when that’s what actually happened, which isn’t fair. Thanks again.
 
Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:
@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such.

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice.

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution.

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to visit the sellers yard or meet the horse. Again, caution should be maintained here. No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn. This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years. I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear. To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for £500. A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for £1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed. Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time.

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale. I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay. She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it. She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail? For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like. Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned. All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable.

Again I see no need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard. If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire. Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him. The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent.

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'. I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible. In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here.

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature. As you should already know it is all in the management and handling. Those that have potential and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut. There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder. But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.
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Before I reply in full the Cyprus comment was tongue in cheek! This is what I meant about it being badly misrepresented. I’ll read your reply in more detail and reply so thank you in advance.
 
HedgePig said:
When you write it like that it sounds awful. You’re right. But it’s inconsistent with how this has developed and it seems to have turned into something it is not.

I have admitted I’m out of my depth and not well informed. I asked about stallions and I tried to paint a picture of how I see it, as a privilege and it’s been taken as some kind of myth. I am truly sorry for how this has gone I don’t know you but I’m defending myself from you for reasons I’m not clear on.
If it is a scam I have been warned off it. Thank you. Hedge.

edit: The owner did say he has had offers and that he had turned them down. I did not feel it was appropriate to ask what the offers were nor why he had chosen to do so. They may have been riders he knew to be cruel. They may have been stupid lowballs. Yet my repeating only what he said is twisted to mean something it is not. I’m honestly sorry this is how this has gone.
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Look no one is calling you or your OH into question. But read your OP and some of your subsequent post about the potential seller and what you have been told. Read them from the perspective of someone else, what if you had been approached to give advice on such an issue. I am sure that many of the cautions and questions being expressed here would be coming from you.

Yes it would feel a privileged to be approached with such an incredible offer, but you know what they say... if it seems to good to be true... it probably is. That should make you approach with extreme caution.

Also, your preconceived notion of stallions may well affect any chance of this horse settling well and bonding with you. Just a thought, so geld or walk.

Finally, as a buyer there should be no reason why as a prospective purchaser you should feel the need to avoid awkward questions. You absolutely should ask why them and not you, why not then but now? How would he feel about you gelding? What about differing riding styles or the fact you haven't ridden for 20 year or ever ridden classically or have only ever been used to TB's. It is not about the seller, it is about you and the horse. If you feel awkward asking the awkward questions you really should walk. You wouldn't buy a house without a survey and searches.
 
Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:
@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such.

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice.

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution.

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to visit the sellers yard or meet the horse. Again, caution should be maintained here. No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn. This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years. I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear. To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for £500. A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for £1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed. Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time.

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale. I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay. She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it. She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail? For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like. Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned. All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable.

Again I see no need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard. If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire. Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him. The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent.

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'. I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible. In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here.

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature. As you should already know it is all in the management and handling. Those that have potential and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut. There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder. But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.
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Hi P&V/G.
You are absolutely right about perspective. The Cyprus comment was me being tongue in cheek about how badly this opportunity is being seen, that I should not be surprised if I was asked to take raw diamonds to Cyprus.
There are no diamonds! No international flights! All UK stuff! I know the man and he is my gf trainer. I have answered elsewhere how the discussion came to pass and it’s entirely possible that the horse has a serious problem. In my mind the price we touched on was lower than I expected but by no means a bargain nor a small sum. I guess it’s subjective but I did feel and still do that talking money with strangers is very poor form. It may be upon vet inspection and more that he’s worth less. Time certainly will tell.
All your points about the livery are excellent thank you.
I made a huge mistake trying to frame the opportunity in too much detail and it has backfired spectacularly and caused arguments.

You are exactly right I should have kept it short and sweet and just said “Tell me about owning stallions folks?”

This was a mistake as it’s invited speculation that has later been taken as fact. None of which is true. As such I have asked the moderators to remove this thread as I have said elsewhere I did actually just pick up the phone and ask a very large equestrian centre if they took stallions and they said yes. That was a good enough start for me. But again more confusion.
I’ve sat here tonight chatting to my gf and we are both of the opinion that if this initial investigation has proven this difficult, that it’s unlikely we will proceed.
Thank you again, sincerely for a lengthy and informative reply. Hedge.
 
HedgePig said:
Hi P&V/G.
You are absolutely right about perspective. The Cyprus comment was me being tongue in cheek about how badly this opportunity is being seen, that I should not be surprised if I was asked to take raw diamonds to Cyprus.
There are no diamonds! No international flights! All UK stuff! .
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Lol good to hear although I can attest Cyprus is wonderful at this time of year!

HedgePig said:
I know the man and he is my gf trainer. I have answered elsewhere how the discussion came to pass and it’s entirely possible that the horse has a serious problem. In my mind the price we touched on was lower than I expected but by no means a bargain nor a small sum. I guess it’s subjective but I did feel and still do that talking money with strangers is very poor form. It may be upon vet inspection and more that he’s worth less. Time certainly will tell.
.
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It is good to hear that he is known to you, I did spot that and it does provide some comfort and a level of security one would hope from your perspective but again... just proceed with caution, most trainers are great, trustworthy and would not want to damage their trainer-client relationship but there are a few out there who see the short term gain as far more important, no matter how friendly they appear to be. I may have overlooked it but I didn't see anyone asking for you to divulge prices... simply commenting on the strangeness of the fact that you had mentioned that he had incredible bloodlines and was trained to the highest standard and being sold for less than horses of far less calibre and as such urging extreme caution.

HedgePig said:
All your points about the livery are excellent thank you.
I made a huge mistake trying to frame the opportunity in too much detail and it has backfired spectacularly and caused arguments.

You are exactly right I should have kept it short and sweet and just said “Tell me about owning stallions folks?”

This was a mistake as it’s invited speculation that has later been taken as fact. None of which is true. As such I have asked the moderators to remove this thread
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I don't actually think you did make a mistake or that you should have kept it short and sweet, by giving context you have gained contextual opinions. You may feel that some of these have been given out of context, but what you have in reality is a load of people some of whom have considered 'worst case scenarios' for you... that is never a bad thing when considering buying a horse! Man! We haven't even ventured into the cost of equipment, vets bills and livery you think we are brutal now! We never want to hear the awkward questions and comments but it is a great leveler, again I would say that that is most likely why you came here... not necessarily to be talked out of it, but more to hear a rational voice to all the possible pitfalls and red flags.

HedgePig said:
as I have said elsewhere I did actually just pick up the phone and ask a very large equestrian centre if they took stallions and they said yes. That was a good enough start for me. But again more confusion.
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I saw no confusion really, yes it is incredibly rare to have a positive response from a yard, but it all depends, some would argue that a larger more professional set up would be more likely to say yes due to having the facilities and capacity, others would say that due to such a large amount of clientele they would not want to bother with the hassle. I would just stress again that a measured 'possible' is something that needs exploring further which I am sure you and your OH will do prior to making any commitment.
 
HedgePig said:
Thank you for your replies. I suggest I’m going to leave this thread, it’s done very little to help me understand the potential risks and I am sorry for how it has evidently upset you and others. Hedge.
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I disagree, there has been some very helpful and extremely knowledgeable posts from the start, which would help most equestrians to understand stallion care, management and riding. However, you don't appear to have acknowledged this, despite your very long and sometimes whimsical replies.

Good luck in whatever you do.
 
....might think think he’s worth 100,000 and we spoke about 50,000. It wasn’t these numbers but you get the idea?
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I would have expected it to have been much higher for a fertile stallion with sought after blood lines trained to the very top level of Haute École. A top Lusitano training yard near me pays £30-50k for an untrained four year old stallion. It is the value of the horse, as much as anything, which is causing people to doubt your story.

.
 
I have come across several stallions of various breeds on agistment and shows over the years. They have not been a problem because they were catered to carefully with appropriate handling, turn out and fencing. I have never owned one so can't speak personally. I prefer geldings because I have no desire to breed and enjoy the ease of taking them out and about. I don't think my skills are up to a stallion anyway. But I think if you are highly motivated and have enough resources to have good instruction and support then it is doable if the horse is a good match. You won't know that until you see him and hopefully have a ride. I wish you all the best which ever way it goes. You are lucky to have a gf who will be able to help you.
 
anything entire should be treated with respect, dont trust it a spit, where you keep it depends on its mind, lots of stallions are ridden, you need your mind in gear at all times, and if you doubt yourself the horse will pick up on this.
 
I have a very different experience with stallions. I loaned my pony’s father as a child (non horsey parents!!) and we had so much fun together. He was just as mannerly as you would expect from a schooled horse. He lived out 24/7 with a gelding for company and covered mares throughout the summer months. He could happily be hacked out alongside mares and was shown in hand in mixed classes with no issues. The only thing he wouldn’t tolerate was rough treatment and he would react violently. However, as a doting teenager he let me do anything to him.

Finding yards to accommodate them is difficult though. I had Jake on a private stud farm. There are a couple of yards near me now that offer stallion turnout but it is individual and some distance from other horses.

The biggest concern of mine with the horse you are discussing is not it’s genitalia but rather I don’t think I would be able to ride either side of it! I would be worried that you might confuse it as it has been used to very specific aids. That been said you won’t know until you get on him! Just to echo some of the other posters too, horses do not have aspirations so don’t let its ability put you off! Good luck with your decision!

Edited to say, really should have read the whole thread before commenting 😂
 
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laura_nash said:
As everyone is saying your biggest problem would be other peoples attitude and finding a good livery where people aren't going to be scared of him or blame any small problem on his being entire. You might find the higher-end competition yards are more used to stallions, or a yard that specialises in spanish types. Almost certainly it will make livery further away and / or more expensive. I have known a stallion on a livery yard and he was fine, but he was owned by the YO. The other stallions I've known, who were all fine and perfectly sane, were kept at home and turned out with company (usually a gelding / geldings, but one was out with a barren mare).
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This^^
I have 3 stallions in my herd of 11. The rest are geldings. They're out at grass all year, and rarely cause any issue. I say rarely, because if they do go off on one, there's much more horse to deal with - horse in my avatar will insist on meeting his (also stallion) best friend with a squeal and a series of rear/strike poses every time he has been ridden. It's lovely to watch, but just a taste of what he could do if he got excited. Aged about 5 he nearly did get himself gelded. That said, he's or 8 now, can be (and often is) caught and ridden by a child, and will calmly pass or work alongside other horses, including mares, because he has been consistently expected to do so.

BUT, if anything goes wrong, even if it's not his fault, people will blame him and you.
 
Aside from the possibility of a scam. I would visit the livery yard before seeing the horse. There will be many a livery yard using a bit of broken post and rail, slack electric wire and the odd bedstead and considering their fencing to be safe. A telephone chat wouldn’t satisfy me that a premise is suitable to house a stallion, regardless of how well behaved he is.
 
9tails said:
Yet still the burning question is why this geezer wants to offload his 10 year old in his prime well trained top bloodlines stallion to a bloke he's not seen ride, a bloke who admits he hasn't ridden for 20 years and doesn't have his own land to secure this stallion's welfare.
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This will be the fourth and final time I will try to address this:
1) It's not an offload. There is a price, not cheap, which came about after some lengthy discussions. Beyond that nothing has been concluded. Nothing. It may turn out its beyond me. You're behaving like its about to be dumped and abandoned with rank amateurs and it just shows your hysteria. Have you bothered to actually read any of my replies? Or is it just in your nature to come onto public forums and argue with strangers?
2) If you want to limit the scope of riders to just me (20 years) and not include my partner who he trains, then I am afraid even a Venn diagram isn't going to help you. Then everyone is an idiot.
3) I know very little about the horse, he may be injured. He may be unwell. He may have monocrypt. (sp) or something. You're just speculating and its actually ridiculous. Stop, if you can't add anything of value.
4) I admitted I have not owned a stallion. I have owned horses. Also I don't currently own my own land so I turned to people like you for advice on a stallion. Nothing unusual, nothing weird. It's you who has turned this into some kind of farce.

What is the point of repeating yourself 12 times when you are dealing with this kind of absurd myopia. But thats just me being whimsical I believe.
For those who have taken the trouble to respond with your own experience of stallions, be it good or bad I say thank you. Truly. Hedge.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Aside from the possibility of a scam. I would visit the livery yard before seeing the horse. There will be many a livery yard using a bit of broken post and rail, slack electric wire and the odd bedstead and considering their fencing to be safe. A telephone chat wouldn’t satisfy me that a premise is suitable to house a stallion, regardless of how well behaved he is.
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Hi Alice you are right of course.
If this is a 10 stage program I would say I am on stage 0.5.
Yesterday the issue of a good livery that takes stallions was raised as a big issue. As such I picked up the phone to a very large centre and was very fortunate to get an initial reading that they do accept stallions. That was as much info as I asked for, the place may be completely unsuitable of course and this would shape my thinking dramatically. What started as a genuine, excited appeal to a community has descended into quite something. I should not have embellished as I did, rather kept it simple. Lesson learnt. As it seems my inability to provide a clear answer immediately leads some to assume the worst, which is a great pity. You are right, I don't know enough about the livery to even contemplate that this has been dealt with. When I get to, if I get to stage 1 I will go out to them and have those sorts of discussions and meet the livery owner etc.

Thank you for your reply. Hedge.
 
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