Today's session lists of progress

[Auslander]

Its a shame Auslander now seems to have retracted that offer.

No I haven't. Always happy to let people have a go on him - he's an older horse with a lot to offer less experienced riders who genuinely want to learn how to ride better, and enough buttons installed to be enormous fun for those who know what they are doing.

Although, in hindsight - I don't think you fall into either category, so I don't want you within a mile of him

 

[Nightwatcher]

It is really confusing reading this thread with two 'golden' people posting.

 

[Spring Feather]

I am sorry but that is just hilarious I know I am being nasty and I try very hard not to be nasty but thats hilarious .

Yes it is nasty and I agree you're not usually. Goldenmint isn't showing herself/himself in a good light but neither are the rest of you picking on him/her. Hands. Sit. On. :wink3:

 

[Auslander]

Well it was fun while it lasted.

Trolololol

Sorry Auslander but at least you have now told H&H the truth about how experienced at competing you are with you PSG horse.
At least I was only a troll.

I now bow out disgracefully.

Competing isn't the be-all and end-all. Many very fine riders/trainers don't compete. Doesn't mean they aren't any good. Rosettes are earned at home, and collected at competitions

 

[nikicb]

No I haven't. Always happy to let people have a go on him - he's an older horse with a lot to offer less experienced riders who genuinely want to learn how to ride better, and enough buttons installed to be enormous fun for those who know what they are doing.

Although, in hindsight - I don't think you fall into either category, so I don't want you within a mile of him

I was actually going to add above that having met Alf he would be quite capable of dealing with any rider that asked him to work in a way he didn't want to - hence I stayed firmly on the ground.

 

[Puppy]

Awww and spring feather has shown herself to be a truely nice person.

But I am a troll don't worry about it.

Its just a shame I used my oldest username.

It's pretty obvious who you are.

 

[Nightwatcher]

It's pretty obvious who you are.

Who?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Woah, don't know about Law and Order, Armas threads are more like The Bermuda Triangle. Annoy him and you disappear from HHO existence.

Whats the current head count ?

 

[Auslander]

Woah, don't know about Law and Order, Armas threads are more like The Bermuda Triangle. Annoy him and you disappear from HHO existence.

Whats the current head count ?

Maybe Armas IS the Fat Controller???

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes it is nasty and I agree you're not usually. Goldenmint isn't showing herself/himself in a good light but neither are the rest of you picking on him/her. Hands. Sit. On. :wink3:

But just too funny if you dish it out you ought to take it too.

 

[Armas]

Ah well thats two trolls that have bit the dust on this thread Muck_bucket lasted 30seconds Goldenmint since 2010 !

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Maybe Armas IS the Fat Controller???

Ah, the plot thickens. Didn't the fat Controller disappear too, to be taken over by the Forum Admin ?

Who's next ? (slinks away mumbling 'I love the pretty-white-pony-that-is-amazing-and-whose-training-schedule-is-beyond-criticism.)

 

[Armas]

Ah, the plot thickens. Didn't the fat Controller disappear too, to be taken over by the Forum Admin ?

Who's next ? (slinks away mumbling 'I love the pretty-white-pony-that-is-amazing-and-whose-training-schedule-is-beyond-criticism.)

Wise words horserider wise words......

 

[Allover]

I am getting really fed up with being a target on here. I have not said that I would not want her to ride my horse - I wouldn't have a problem with her riding him, and he'd probably go beautifully for her. I have said that there are things I'd do differently - and I stand by that. I think the horse has improved personally - and I genuinely thing he has, in some areas. You disagree, and thats fine.

I am sorry if it was not you.

I like to agree to disagree

Purely out of interest if the opportunity arose would you ask her to ride your horse your way or her way? Unless I completely misunderstood she explained that she is actively using the LDR method of riding as a training method. LDR can be seen as a fix for many different evasions and this could well be employed to correct any evasions your horse may have, would you be happy for your horse to be ridden LDR for 20-30mins?

The reason I "targeted" you is that you are the one that asked the questions, no other reason.

 

[Auslander]

I am sorry if it was not you.

I like to agree to disagree

Purely out of interest if the opportunity arose would you ask her to ride your horse your way or her way? Unless I completely misunderstood she explained that she is actively using the LDR method of riding as a training method. LDR can be seen as a fix for many different evasions and this could well be employed to correct any evasions your horse may have, would you be happy for your horse to be ridden LDR for 20-30mins?

The reason I "targeted" you is that you are the one that asked the questions, no other reason.

I would let her get on with it, and see what she made of him. His chosen evasion is to stick his nose to his chest and hold himself in the neck, and he lacks lateral flexion. I don't see LDR in the same light as Rollkur, in certain cases, it has value in getting stretch and swing into a horse that is naturally up and tight, so I wouldn't have a problem with anyone trying to achieve it with this particular horse. The chances of him agreeing to work in a deep outline are minimal anyway - he has very firm ideas about what he considers to be the correct way of going! I can get him to do stretchy-down, but it has taken a lot of patience and time to get him to agree to work in that frame - and he immediately reverts to his default position with someone new on board! Cunning old boy!

 

[Allover]

As cunning as his mother who avoided the question as to whether she would allow LDR for 20-30 minutes at a time on her horse

 

[Auslander]

As cunning as his mother who avoided the question as to whether she would allow LDR for 20-30 minutes at a time on her horse

I didn't mean to! I'm just cautious about saying Yes, because everyone has a different perception of what LDR is, and I don't want to get jumped on as a Rollkurist because I don't have an issue with working a horse in what I interpret as LDR, which cud be very different from someone else's interpetation

 

[Allover]

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

From the videos posted Armas' work would be described - with the above link for reference - as working between "deep/rollkur" and "rollkur/severe deep" for the majority of the videos posted on these threads. Would you allow that on your horse?

 

[Auslander]

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

From the videos posted Armas' work would be described - with the above link for reference - as working between "deep/rollkur" and "rollkur/severe deep" for the majority of the videos posted on these threads. Would you allow that on your horse?

Nope! Although, I do feel for the rider as its pretty clear to me that it is primarily Armas choosing to put himself there. That aside, I don't agree with how she uses her hands, and James knows that.
This is why I was reluctant to give an answer re LDR, as I use it, but not in an abusive way. Te best way that I can explain what, to me, correct LDR is, is to talk about the angle at the throat. If I were to ride Alf in LDR, his face would look, at first glance, as if he was BTV. However, I would be using the exercise to stretch the trapezius muxcle, and the angle between neck and throat would be exactly the same as if he was in a reasonably advanced outline, with his face on the vertical If you were to take a photo of his head and neck while he was in the LDR position, and and another with him in normal outline - there would be no difference at all in that angle. LDR is all about that throat angle - or it is for me. I really hope this makes sense - because I know exactly what I mean, but I'm not sure I've explained it very well!

 

[doriangrey]

What's to explain It's Armas - in proportion to his wonderful life (especially mooching with Hersus the Great) - he has to work a little hard. Boo hoo - I reckon he copes

 

[Auslander]

This picture sums up my interpretation of LDR.

And if you are feeling particularly up for it, this website is worth a read. It's a bit of an eye frazzler, and some of the stuff she says is a bit odd, but if you can get over the visual and mental disturbance, she has some very informative stuff to say about LDR and how it can benefit the horse when done properly

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html

 

[Allover]

Nope! Although, I do feel for the rider as its pretty clear to me that it is primarily Armas choosing to put himself there. That aside, I don't agree with how she uses her hands, and James knows that.
This is why I was reluctant to give an answer re LDR, as I use it, but not in an abusive way. Te best way that I can explain what, to me, correct LDR is, is to talk about the angle at the throat. If I were to ride Alf in LDR, his face would look, at first glance, as if he was BTV. However, I would be using the exercise to stretch the trapezius muxcle, and the angle between neck and throat would be exactly the same as if he was in a reasonably advanced outline, with his face on the vertical If you were to take a photo of his head and neck while he was in the LDR position, and and another with him in normal outline - there would be no difference at all in that angle. LDR is all about that throat angle - or it is for me. I really hope this makes sense - because I know exactly what I mean, but I'm not sure I've explained it very well!

Thank you for the honest answer What is it you do not like about her hands? I still have to disagree that she is not causing the BTV. From watching the videos I see a rider who is controlling the horse with her hands only. Whilst i will openly admit that some horses will go BTV of their own doing I also know that no horse will keep itself in that position for the length of time that is shown on the vids without the rider asking for it. I can also see from the video that Armas continuously offers a more correct frame and this is ignored/not felt by the rider. She also rolls him under on the long reins so it is not that she can't feel it but is just a way of training for her.

 

[Allover]

This picture sums up my interpretation of LDR.

And if you are feeling particularly up for it, this website is worth a read. It's a bit of an eye frazzler, and some of the stuff she says is a bit odd, but if you can get over the visual and mental disturbance, she has some very informative stuff to say about LDR and how it can benefit the horse when done properly

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html

I had a read through the website and could find nothing on LDR?

With regards to the picture shown that again is not a bodily position I would want a horse I was riding to be in. If we look only at the head we can see he is BTV but if we move further along the body you can also see that his back is not engaged. In fact there are very few photos on that website where the horses are not BTV. I would presume that she has put the best of her pics on this website so again presume that this is a normal way of working for her horses. A knowledge of bio-mechanics will help you understand why this is detrimental to the horses physical being.

Unfortunately we seem to have come to a point where all the emphasis is on how the horse is going rather that what the rider is doing and when things go belly up it is the horses "fault" regardless of whether the rider is capable of asking correctly for whatever it is they want. Horses can't call us for a chat or send us an email to tell us how to do things correctly all it can do is respond to what we ask of it. They do tell us but we have gotten used to not listening and lets face it it is always handy to have someone else to blame when you mess up, especially when what we are blaming cannot defend themselves!

James, if you are still reading this thread i would be really grateful if you would do something for me. If memory serves you are a fairly fit kinda guy so i would like for you to place your hands behind your back with the back of your hand against your buttocks (i love that word) then i would like you to bend your knees slightly. Then take a 15 minute walk, at no point must your legs be fully straightened and your hands may only rub up and down from the buttocks ) ) to the small of the back. It would be really interesting to know how you are feeling after this.

 

[Spring Feather]

I still have to disagree that she is not causing the BTV. From watching the videos I see a rider who is controlling the horse with her hands only. Whilst i will openly admit that some horses will go BTV of their own doing I also know that no horse will keep itself in that position for the length of time that is shown on the vids without the rider asking for it. I can also see from the video that Armas continuously offers a more correct frame and this is ignored/not felt by the rider. She also rolls him under on the long reins so it is not that she can't feel it but is just a way of training for her.

Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see. You've written that word perfect IMO. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.

 

[DabDab]

Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see. You've written that word perfect IMO. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.

At the beginning of today's session she does ride him in a more correct frame, and as a combination she and Armas seem to be able to maintain that nice frame with lovely movement while trotting nice and easily around the arena. But when she asks for more/something different you very quickly get the very high, 'advanced' shaped neck and Armas gets very strong. I genuinely believe that that is partly due to Armas being ridden into that kind of frame, and I also think that it is partly due to the fact that he seems to be sensitive, panicky and naturally eager to please so he tenses up very quickly in response to the rider's aids. But I also believe that at times the rider exasperates the problem.

I don't think the rider exactly knows how to deal with this, which is why she has chosen to focus on other stuff - primarily the engagement of the back end. But I also think that, ultimately that focus is a false economy, because Armas' conformation will always allow him to tuck his back end right underneath him, while still holding his head very high and being hollow through the back.

I probably should have written this on the new thread but it seemed to fit in with the discussion on this one

 

[Spring Feather]

At the beginning of today's session she does ride him in a more correct frame, and as a combination she and Armas seem to be able to maintain that nice frame with lovely movement while trotting nice and easily around the arena. But when she asks for more/something different you very quickly get the very high, 'advanced' shaped neck and Armas gets very strong. I genuinely believe that that is partly due to Armas being ridden into that kind of frame, and I also think that it is partly due to the fact that he seems to be sensitive, panicky and naturally eager to please so he tenses up very quickly in response to the rider's aids. But I also believe that at times the rider exasperates the problem.

I don't think the rider exactly knows how to deal with this, which is why she has chosen to focus on other stuff - primarily the engagement of the back end. But I also think that, ultimately that focus is a false economy, because Armas' conformation will always allow him to tuck his back end right underneath him, while still holding his head very high and being hollow through the back.

I probably should have written this on the new thread but it seemed to fit in with the discussion on this one

Exactly what I saw too. Thank you for replying. The ride started off really nicely (there was my glimmer!!!) and I was so hopeful for the rest of the ride to finally get it together as it looked so promising! If you look again though, at the beginning she was giving Armas length of rein and he worked very nicely with it. It was a fair way in that she then took back her usual stance of riding and it all went pear shaped again (for me anyway). He started doing what he usually does, and she kept doing her snatching cr4p again just as he was trying to move nicely into the contact again. I felt today's ride, the rider looked very unbalanced and quite out of sorts compared to how she has ridden previously - maybe not so determined as she usually is. I find her hands naturally harsh and unforgiving and at the beginning of todays video I saw her being far more gentle and responsive, shame it didn't last because she was getting the best ever from Armas! I wonder if the rider is becoming fed up now? Having said all that, I did again see a bit of a glimmer towards the end of todays video so maybe, just maybe they might be getting somewhere.

 

[Goldenstar]

I feel and I don't like to criticise this rider who is so open as to leave herself open to the process we playing at here but I feel her fault may be she is greedy in that she keeps going when backing off and saying that was interesting Armas would you like to think about that a while might help this hot busy person to find more equilibrium .
This horse does not cope well with being pushed into an error it rattles him and then its back to managing evasions not training
With some horses you have to push the point with others backing away can pay more dividends in the end .
Just my musing not meanlt in any unpleasant way.

 

[Allover]

Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see. You've written that word perfect IMO. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.

Thanks

Again I thought there was little improvement from the rider. At the start of the video her elbows are as good as locked and she is way behind the horses movement therefor off balance. When he raises his frame her balance shifts back even more so she grabs at the front end to get him where she is more comfortable. I am not so sure that she is confident in allowing any freedom in the trot and I am not sure why. When she pushes Armas on in the trot she drops him on the forehand and unbalances him so yes he is going round with lots of speed but none of the energy is being harnessed into a productive working frame, he is just trotting quickly and off balance. I did also think today that Armas looks like he learning to throw his front leg forward from the elbow rather than use his shoulder (quite understandably as at one point there was no daylight in the neck/head angle due to him being so compressed in his frame)This is the result of the training he is receiving. At 8.40 she is completely braced against his movement, it is like the dressage equivalent of the classic defensive hunting seat with the leg shoved forward with the body braced against the hand. He offers so often - and is ignored - in this video to raise up and lengthen his frame that it starts getting me down if I watch it for too long. I think the rider finds the canter more comfortable, unfortunately this means that she pushes him about a bit more and annoys Armas (the eternally giving horse!). The majority of the bunny hopping/spooking etc could be avoided if she was a slightly more sympathetic rider. I still do not "get" the throwing and snatching back of the reins that she does though I am sure someone will tell me that she is releasing and taking back the contact.

Hope this makes sense, I has been a long day!!

 

[Allover]

I feel and I don't like to criticise this rider who is so open as to leave herself open to the process we playing at here but I feel her fault may be she is greedy in that she keeps going when backing off and saying that was interesting Armas would you like to think about that a while might help this hot busy person to find more equilibrium .
This horse does not cope well with being pushed into an error it rattles him and then its back to managing evasions not training
With some horses you have to push the point with others backing away can pay more dividends in the end .
Just my musing not meanlt in any unpleasant way.

She could always ask James to stop posting?

As for the rest I agree 100%, she has no tact in her riding of Armas.

 

[ester]

I had a read through the website and could find nothing on LDR?

With regards to the picture shown that again is not a bodily position I would want a horse I was riding to be in. If we look only at the head we can see he is BTV but if we move further along the body you can also see that his back is not engaged. In fact there are very few photos on that website where the horses are not BTV. I would presume that she has put the best of her pics on this website so again presume that this is a normal way of working for her horses. A knowledge of bio-mechanics will help you understand why this is detrimental to the horses physical being.

Unfortunately we seem to have come to a point where all the emphasis is on how the horse is going rather that what the rider is doing and when things go belly up it is the horses "fault" regardless of whether the rider is capable of asking correctly for whatever it is they want. Horses can't call us for a chat or send us an email to tell us how to do things correctly all it can do is respond to what we ask of it. They do tell us but we have gotten used to not listening and lets face it it is always handy to have someone else to blame when you mess up, especially when what we are blaming cannot defend themselves!

James, if you are still reading this thread i would be really grateful if you would do something for me. If memory serves you are a fairly fit kinda guy so i would like for you to place your hands behind your back with the back of your hand against your buttocks (i love that word) then i would like you to bend your knees slightly. Then take a 15 minute walk, at no point must your legs be fully straightened and your hands may only rub up and down from the buttocks ) ) to the small of the back. It would be really interesting to know how you are feeling after this.

Most of the page is about LDR... so much so that it is entitled low deep and round on my google tab! and most of the photos included are of other dressage riders as far as I can tell???