Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[tristar]

How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a world championships as being acceptable.
.

if you have to start at the top, so be it.

high profile will reach a lot of peoples attention, its not just about horsemanship or lack of it, its about the sheer horrible spectacle, regardless of whether one knows a fetlock from a forelock.

treating animals with consideration and fairness is so obviously needed , they dont have the advantage of anticipating the 4 yearly spectacle, and the tension of some of those riders will be a major contribution to lack of performance

 

[milliepops]

The German coach has been dismissed and sent home. You would hope that that in itself will send a message, and given the backlash I hope there is a closer investigation into this entire practice. I've only just noticed that the poor horse in question is in a gag, with his mouth strapped shut. The riders all seem to wear spurs, which given the kicking going on.... why are the welfare rules not enforced in this event like they are in the rest of the equestrian events? To display this utter parody in front of the world and call it sport. Must admit it's taken the joy out of watching the Olympics a bit for me. In any other event the German rider would have been asked to leave the field, and yes, ring stewards should have been involved. There are no excuses for what we saw, literally none.

this is why i think the riding element should come under the FEI umbrella. it's not like any other equestrian discipline as it has its own governing body. did anyone else see the training guidelines I linked to earlier? i've never seen anything like it within the FEI sports.

 

[Rowreach]

i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic. I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses

But SM today is full of how it was all the fault of the horses and not the MP riders, so maybe now is the time to challenge that for ALL equestrians?

 

[Michen]

Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare?
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.

Because of the example it sets to others I suppose. Particularly non horsey people.

 

[milliepops]

But SM today is full of how it was all the fault of the horses and not the MP riders, so maybe now is the time to challenge that for ALL equestrians?

I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.

 

[Rowreach]

I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.

I’m in complete agreement with you on that ?

 

[milliepops]

i don't put a lot of faith in the "good example" or "trickle down" effect, there are people on this forum who say they didn't know MP existed as a sport, so erasing the riding element from the event isn't going to have a seismic effect on horse welfare. probably most people won't even notice it happening.

Likewise i don't think that Beryl who is annoyed that dobbin refused the wall 3x at the 70cm RC jumping won't be thinking about whether the olympic SJers set a great example or not. The gap is to great for trickle down to work i think.

 

[Equi]

I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.

That’s one page I decline regularly. Maybe it’s from my years of hho training (Ie don’t post shite pictures of yourself) I don’t have many bad pictures anyway cause I don’t leave the ground these days but I wouldn’t want to post them anyway. I’ve always felt the point of riding was to sit quiet and stay in the saddle, maybe this is why I’m not a better rider?????? Lol

 

[ycbm]

Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare?
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.

Because they are being held up as an example of world class attainment to countless millions of people.

 

[milliepops]

Because they are being held up as an example of world class attainment to countless millions of people.

but everyone could recognise the ones that were below standard as such. i doubt anyone at all looked at one of the unbalanced ones falling all over the place and said "oh yeah, now THAT'S horse riding".

i think there's 2 things going on
Should riding remain in the MP? (for me, depends on whether they can raise the standard)
Would removing riding from the MP improve horse welfare in the general population (for me, no chance. few people will notice).

 

[BronsonNutter]

I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc.

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly.
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.

 

[milliepops]

yesterday there was a PDF file on the olympics website that specified the tack permitted for each horse, whip/spurs/martingale and I had assumed that had come from the owner so thanks for the insight BN.

 

[tristar]

that poor horse who was reversing with his head up, looked so desperately lonely, no one went to help him

 

[teapot]

yesterday there was a PDF file on the olympics website that specified the tack permitted for each horse, whip/spurs/martingale and I had assumed that had come from the owner so thanks for the insight BN.

This one? https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf

 

[milliepops]

yeah. i assume there was one for the other horses, i don't think they updated it for the reserves brought in today.

 

[Rowreach]

I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc.

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly.
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.

“If you can’t ride then you score badly.” And who suffers? The poor bloody horses.

 

[teapot]

I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.

Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?' I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.

yeah. i assume there was one for the other horses, i don't think they updated it for the reserves brought in today.

No, they're in there Ladento was a reserve but he's in the details.

 

[milliepops]

Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?' I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.

no indeed. that's why I can't pin any hopes on binning the riding element somehow resulting in a trickle down effect in equine welfare. it's such small fry!

 

[tristar]

I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc.

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly.
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.

depends how quantify understanding a random horse

i would say its more like dropping a horse in the shxte, or alternatively endowing horses with the powers of a mind reader

 

[Rowreach]

no indeed. that's why I can't pin any hopes on binning the riding element somehow resulting in a trickle down effect in equine welfare. it's such small fry!

So we ignore a huge welfare issue at the Olympics because it doesn’t solve all other welfare issues at the same time? Can’t get my head around that one, it’s like not calling out someone for beating a horse at a show because you can’t stop them beating it at home.

 

[Tiddlypom]

“If you can’t ride then you score badly.” And who suffers? The poor bloody horses.

This with knobs on! It's far more than ride badly/score badly.

It's irrelevant as to how accessible the sport is - the poor s0dding horse doesn't care whether you went to posh school or to the local comp.

 

[tristar]

Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?' I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.


but if he saw the bad bits and was specifically asked what he thought he may surprise us, non horsey people often do show insight

really there is no such thing as joe public and dave, i honestly find it disrespectful, sorry nothing personal

if anyone asked me in a few weeks i would probably say, having watched a bit, the tension and stress of those taking part and the horses confusion outweighs any pleasure i derived from what i saw, and that crying girls horse reversing in mp will stay with me forever

 

[milliepops]

So we ignore a huge welfare issue at the Olympics because it doesn’t solve all other welfare issues at the same time? Can’t get my head around that one, it’s like not calling out someone for beating a horse at a show because you can’t stop them beating it at home.

nope, see my post 370
i just think it won't have the impact that some people have suggested.

 

[ycbm]

nope, see my post 370
i just think it won't have the impact that some people have suggested.

I don't think anyone has suggested that it will have any great impact, just that it makes it extremely difficult to call other people out on bad behaviours when this is broadcast as "world class" horse sport.

However, if it continues I can certainly see it having a big impact on hastening the call for the end of all riding of horses, first competitively and many years in the future, at all.
.

 

[milliepops]

i guess i don't see why it's any harder to call out bad riding today than it was this time last week, just because the MP has been on the telly for 2 days.

 

[milliepops]

plus if Beryl gets pulled up for losing her rag at Dobbin at the 70cm SJ is she going to use the MP performances as her defense? I'm not being awkward i just don't see how it's relevant really.

 

[Penny Less]

I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is OK that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

i guess i don't see why it's any harder to call out bad riding today than it was this time last week, just because the MP has been on the telly for 2 days.

The MP was broadcast to a global audience as to what it considered to be the acceptable treatment of horses in a competition. No riders were disciplined, just the German coach.

It shows to the non horsey world how some athletes regard the equipment for their sport when it malfunctions, except that this equipment is live and kicking.

 

[tristar]

or being instrumental in bringing changes to the way we ride and train horses, but then one can`t say that on here without provoking the wrath of the anti unicorn brigade ha ha!

 

[palo1]

I just want to know how some of those riders even felt confident/competent to take on the equestrian element....and why on earth would they be interested when clearly some of them have little skill or understanding? The girl featured in the German debacle just looked totally at sea - you just would think that she would have had enough horsemanship to put her hand up and retire in spite of the medals issue. But I guess...pressure....medals....personal glory. I know the competitors in the MP are not purely equestrian so there are some 'cultural' issues at play if you like but that, apart from some of the decent rounds, was a brilliant exhibition of how equestrianism can fail horses and show equestrianism in the worst possible light in sporting terms. I don't think getting rid of that element would change much in horse welfare terms tbh but oh my goodness I really think they should get shot of that if these are the 'best' riders that sport has. I know that we all see (and possibly are) far worse at local shows etc so it is impossible to know how to change that and improve horsemanship/riding standards but this was a pretty breathtaking exhibition of why horses shouldn't be used as sporting tools in any kind of 'mixed' discipline. I cannot see it in any way comparable to some of the pure equestrian sports either where at least the competitors and teams behind them are absolutely committed equestrians. I am sure that my thinking on this is muddled...I really feel it but I didn't feel uncomfortable watching the vast majority of the other equine stuff.