Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[PapaverFollis]

The German women should have retired gracefully. Her coach should have pulled her out. The officials should have pulled the horse out and offered a replacement. Lots of layers. I think the athlete herself had got herself into such a state that she wasn't going to be able to pull herself out of there. One of the other adults in the room should have been able to step up to the plate for the sake of the horse.

A horse in emotional distress should be considered lame for the purposes of the rules. The riding test should be about riding a willing and capable horse. Not having 20 minutes to undo the damage a previous competitor has done to a horse's confidence.

I only watched the mens competition and I didn't see anything too too bad, but I didn't watch it all so I don't know. Just one guy bouncing on the back of the saddle, who I would I have eliminated for incompetence if such a thing was possible. And it should be. Add a horse welfare judge whose responsibility it is to eliminate the incompetent. Have them be strict with clear infractions to eliminate for. Have the horses as the first event. If you're shite your whole competition lasts 5 minutes and you don't even go in the ring. That would create some focus.

 

[DressageCob]

I don't like it and I don't think the current competition can be justified. We are so much more enlightened about animal rights and animal sentience these days.

Either it needs bringing in line with the FEI, together with strict rules on the use of the whip, and the height being dropped, or it needs ditching.

Maybe it's time for the Ultra Modern Pentathlon, with BMW stunts or skateboarding replacing the show jumping.

 

[SOS]

Im not defending the riding standard in anyway and agree the horsemanship should get better. However I’ve seen lots of posts saying they don’t care for the horses everyday, aren’t the ones doing the late night checks, washing legs down, etc. These would be carried out by grooms, much like with professional riders all over the world and even some amateur riders on full comp livery etc. So I can’t really get worked up about that.

The issue is not the horses care outside of the competition but the monitoring of their mental health, not just physical health, during it.

If it is meant to be based in on a soldier/army sports then this opens up most aspects of riding - dressage, working equitation etc.

 

[teapot]

Have the horses as the first event. If you're shite your whole competition lasts 5 minutes and you don't even go in the ring. That would create some focus.

It will be first in Paris, whole event is changing.

 

[Fruitcake]

The UIPM statement seemed a bit of a cop-out to me. I'll not hold my breath for much to come out of that review.

I've thought a lot about this over the past few days as I actually found watching the incident with Saint Boy really upsetting. While I agree that similar treatment probably goes on at all levels, it doesn't make it any less shocking or distressing to see at Olympic level - and doesn't mean that, just because we can't save all horses from this abuse, we shouldn't attempt to make changes at the supposed top.

I find it rather baffling that some people seem to feel that a pentathlete making mistakes in the riding phase is no different to one making mistakes in swimming or running: in those phases, mistakes only affect points and not another living being!

Joe Choong hasn't really helped the case either. On Radio 5, he said the incident with the German rider has been blown out of context and that there was no way what happened could physically hurt the horse. He also made some comments about the medal being his and not the horse's. Rather sad that he seems to see the horse as just a tool too.

 

[McFluff]

This is the bit that really worries me.

The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling.

I don’t think this attitude (or desired outcome) can ever sit well with the use of another living being. Horses are being deliberately set up to create ‘dramatic spectacle’ - that is mental abuse in my view. There is enough drama in established equine sports without over-facing either horse or rider. Didn’t they drop the horse swap thing in the show jumping World Cup - that didn’t always go well, and those riders were top of their Game?

if they must use a unknown horse/rider relationship then the test has to be easier IMO.

 

[ester]

I don't want a dramatic spectacle. I picked up on that too.

 

[Mule]

This thread has reminded me of catch riding in eventing. They don't do it anymore but it used to be done. Mark Todd won Badminton with a catch ride. I think he had a few days to ride the horse prior to it. I know he's Mark Todd, so if anyone is going to make it work, it will be him but he was hardly the only eventer that did it. So I suppose it just comes down to talent and horsemanship.

 

[ester]

They don't make the top 4 switch horses at weg anymore either and that was far more skilled riders.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I felt desperately sorry for the German athlete as well as for the horse. There is no way that horse was mentally fit after the car crash of his first round. He should have been withdrawn as he was not fit to continue. What happened to mental health IS health. I hope he re-sets quickly and recovers his confidence.

In my view, the German athlete was not having a tantrum but a total emotional meltdown. She was distraught, inconsolable, utterly heart broken and no doubt traumatised. I hope she has good support around her and I wish she was not being scapegoated for long-standing, deep seated problems in how to make the riding element of MP fair to horses and to competitors.

The concept of riding unfamiliar horses is not outrageous. Every RS rider , everyone doing BHS stages, rides horses they don’t know. These athletes have qualified to be at THE OLYMPICS! They should be able to be trusted not to screw up horses. Clearly some can’t, so the qualifying element needs to be looked at.

As many have said a key change to improve standards surely would be to introduce style marks so those horrific misses that the horse heroically clears are hammered anyway. I’d also rather see the height lowered or some sort of seeding so that some riders have to compete over the fences at - say - a metre and some can do 110 and some 120. Like the difference in difficulty in diving or gymnastics. As MP says, it’s not that bad scores means horse welfare does not matter, but that bad scores means people would improve their horsemanship rather than point and pray.

I hope that the high profile of Schleu’s meltdown does now mean that improvements are made.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Yes. I spent my entire Pony Club experience finding out which horse I was on when I arrived at the yard on the day of the rally. The only time I got a consistent ride was camp, where I had the same horse for a week. Otherwise it was whoever I was assigned, sometimes consistent, sometimes not, like in my riding lessons. For competitions I knew who I was getting a week or so before but just had to get on and do it in the day.

Riding unfamiliar horses and being ridden by unfamiliar riders was just a standard experience for me and those horses. I don't think that is where the issues lie here. I think it is in not taking horse welfare (with respect to being ridden by sacks of potatoes with spurs on) seriously enough and not enforcing strict competence and welfare standards.

The actual substance of the event seems fine to me. But the attitude that it is approached with by athletes and officials needs sharpening up.

 

[Mule]

Yes. I spent my entire Pony Club experience finding out which horse I was on when I arrived at the yard on the day of the rally. The only time I got a consistent ride was camp, where I had the same horse for a week. Otherwise it was whoever I was assigned, sometimes consistent, sometimes not, like in my riding lessons. For competitions I knew who I was getting a week or so before but just had to get on and do it in the day.

Riding unfamiliar horses and being ridden by unfamiliar riders was just a standard experience for me and those horses. I don't think that is where the issues lie here. I think it is in not taking horse welfare (with respect to being ridden by sacks of potatoes with spurs on) seriously enough and not enforcing strict competence and welfare standards.

The actual substance of the event seems fine to me. But the attitude that it is approached with by athletes and officials needs sharpening up.

I agree

 

[SEL]

Also agree. I rarely jump more than a cross pole these days but I would still feel confident getting on one of those horses - especially because it has already gone round the course - & jumping it. I came through RS, university competitions, random overseas trips etc. I'm not Olympic standard in anything but I'm more competent than the vast majority of those MP riders and that shouldn't be the case.

The "dramatic spectacle" had me switch over.

 

[AmyMay]

UIPM have posted an update on Saint Boy from his stables, saying he’s tired but fine. I’m not sure the pictures posted are actually of Saint Boy though.

 

[shortstuff99]

https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866

 

[ycbm]

I don't find that picture and the way he is standing reassuring, that looks like a sore horse to me.
.

 

[Red-1]

I don't find that picture and the way he is standing reassuring, that looks like a sore horse to me.
.

I agree!

I think the spectacle was awful, only watched the first half as it wasn't something I would want to see.

However...

I don't think the height is the issue. If they make the jumps lower, then I think the athletes would simply train in the equestrian area less. If they are not real equestrians, they will do what they feel they have to, IMO, and no more. Maybe because they see the jumping as being a bit of a lottery anyway? If you are not interested in equestrianism, the training is arduous and carries a significant risk of injury. At present there obviously isn't enough incentive to train more.

The idea that getting on a strange horse is impossible is also wrong, IMO. I am a rubbish jumper, but did my BHS stage 4, way back in 1995. I seem to recollect that, at the time, it was 1.10 jumping, on a horse I hadn't met. Plus, the jumps could be 5cm bigger. I had jumped BS up to Newcomers, but recognised that I wasn't good enough to do the test in the exam. I took responsibility and went to a professional show jumper once a week, and was regularly jumping courses at that height, on different horses, before presenting myself for the exam. Young horses, dealer horses, difficult horses. I had not one iota of natural talent, but had the pride to go do the hard work.

I did the jumping at Bishop Burton, where the courses were reputed to be full height. The collecting ring was called, as in the riding master (Mike Gee) said what to do and when. You had to pass his steely gaze before jumping. He controlled the fence. He wasn't one of the examiners, he was there purely for the welfare and safety of his horses.

We all warmed up, all did a X pole. I stuffed up the first jump. He stared. I did better. One lady didn't improve. I seem to think she was tried on another horse, she did better. However, she didn't do as well on course, so she was eliminated from the jumping portion of the exam after just a couple of fences. No one waited for a fall or for the horse to suffer a protracted list of errors. She was called off, plain and simple.

Surely the FEI could provide a ground jury of 3, to warm up in batches? 5 people assessed on the horses, assessed over a X, assessed over an upright and oxer? If you are struggling, try another horse, if still struggling, you are out? Then on course in the actual arena, a ground jury of 3, to ring the bell if it all goes wrong? Elimination from that portion of the test? They wouldn't be judging, as the fences either fall or they don't, they would be there simply for the welfare and safety of the horses and riders.

I think then the athletes would make the effort to do the work in the equine field then, rather than clinging on and trusting to luck. It would be a howler to be kicked out before even competing. Perhaps people would train harder. If not, at least the horses would be better off.

I just think, if a self confessed crap jumper can manage to pass a 1.10 jumping course (although when I did the re-take at Moreton Morrell due to me passing the jumping but, in the flat, not riding the Intermediaire dressage horse with enough grace it was tiny, more like a B Nov) on a strange horse, in good style, it is not out of the way for a professional athlete, at the OLYMPICS no less, to manage 1.20 on a schoolmaster.

But, it has not proved so.

Putting the fences down will not cure it. I would have the ground jury in the collecting ring, who are not afraid to pass judgement. Then another ground jury in the ring, again not afraid to pass judgement.

I also like AE's idea to have a system where athletes could jump over smaller fences but carry a penalty, but that would create issues with sourcing horses as clinging on round a 1m course would be best horsed by a different animal than a proficient jumper jumping 1.20. It would have to be declared months in advance.

Jumping and style would also be OK too.

I don't think Saint Boy should have been re-presented for a second rider.

 

[Polos Mum]

https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866

What's going on with his back feet? Hope it's a very odd camera angle -agreed if that is the best photo they could take to reassure the horse community globally then poor poor horse

 

[ester]

I think the back feet have led to the is it really him query.

Re. the height, I think the issue is that outside of the olympics they don't jump that high normally so they aren't used to doing it in competition.

ETA this is their rule on height
The height of the course obstacles must be made in accordance with the standard of the horses.

and
the course builder must plan and prepare the course adjusting the size of the obstacles to the quality of the horses and in such a way that capable pentathletes will benefit from their skill.

 

[OldNag]

The UIPM statement seemed a bit of a cop-out to me. I'll not hold my breath for much to come out of that review.

I've thought a lot about this over the past few days as I actually found watching the incident with Saint Boy really upsetting. While I agree that similar treatment probably goes on at all levels, it doesn't make it any less shocking or distressing to see at Olympic level - and doesn't mean that, just because we can't save all horses from this abuse, we shouldn't attempt to make changes at the supposed top.

I find it rather baffling that some people seem to feel that a pentathlete making mistakes in the riding phase is no different to one making mistakes in swimming or running: in those phases, mistakes only affect points and not another living being!

Joe Choong hasn't really helped the case either. On Radio 5, he said the incident with the German rider has been blown out of context and that there was no way what happened could physically hurt the horse. He also made some comments about the medal being his and not the horse's. Rather sad that he seems to see the horse as just a tool too.

I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it

 

[Abi90]

I think the back feet have led to the is it really him query.

Re. the height, I think the issue is that outside of the olympics they don't jump that high normally so they aren't used to doing it in competition.

ETA this is their rule on height
The height of the course obstacles must be made in accordance with the standard of the horses.

and
the course builder must plan and prepare the course adjusting the size of the obstacles to the quality of the horses and in such a way that capable pentathletes will benefit from their skill.

Interesting that the courses are built for the capability of the horses and not the riders

 

[Abi90]

I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it

it was incredibly disappointing. Clearly no empathy with the horse and “it’s just a random horse and it’s our medal” really says something

 

[ecb89]

I don’t think that’s the same horse. Back feet look different

 

[AmyMay]

Deleted

 

[HashRouge]

UIPM have posted an update on Saint Boy from his stables, saying he’s tired but fine. I’m not sure the pictures posted are actually of Saint Boy though.

It's hard to say, isn't it? I'm not completely convinced it is the same horse, but it can be very hard to tell with a solid bay. But the horse in the pictures does look to have a slightly lighter muzzle and lighter hair round his stifle, which I couldn't see when I went back and looked at the video. But equally, he's so sweaty it's hards to say for sure!

Having watched the video again, what I really don't understand is how/ why there wasn't someone in the warm up who said, you know what, let's get this girl off this horse. Schleu came into the ring in an absolute state and so did Saint Boy. They obviously been having major trouble when warming up and that really should have been picked up on.

 

[southerncomfort]

I felt desperately sorry for the German athlete as well as for the horse. There is no way that horse was mentally fit after the car crash of his first round. He should have been withdrawn as he was not fit to continue. What happened to mental health IS health. I hope he re-sets quickly and recovers his confidence.

In my view, the German athlete was not having a tantrum but a total emotional meltdown. She was distraught, inconsolable, utterly heart broken and no doubt traumatised. I hope she has good support around her and I wish she was not being scapegoated for long-standing, deep seated problems in how to make the riding element of MP fair to horses and to competitors.

The concept of riding unfamiliar horses is not outrageous. Every RS rider , everyone doing BHS stages, rides horses they don’t know. These athletes have qualified to be at THE OLYMPICS! They should be able to be trusted not to screw up horses. Clearly some can’t, so the qualifying element needs to be looked at.

As many have said a key change to improve standards surely would be to introduce style marks so those horrific misses that the horse heroically clears are hammered anyway. I’d also rather see the height lowered or some sort of seeding so that some riders have to compete over the fences at - say - a metre and some can do 110 and some 120. Like the difference in difficulty in diving or gymnastics. As MP says, it’s not that bad scores means horse welfare does not matter, but that bad scores means people would improve their horsemanship rather than point and pray.

I hope that the high profile of Schleu’s meltdown does now mean that improvements are made.

I do actually have a small amount of sympathy for the rider and I wondered if the overbearing coach was as much to blame for her emotional state.

That said, it was still very upsetting to see the horse mistreated like that. The general attitude towards horses within MP is worrying and discomforting.

I feel that all participants should pass a basic riding/horsemanship test before being allowed to take part.

I also think the time allowed to get to know your mount needs to be increased.

 

[southerncomfort]

it was incredibly disappointing. Clearly no empathy with the horse and “it’s just a random horse and it’s our medal” really says something

Perhaps when they start seeing the horse as a fellow athlete rather than a means to an end things might improve.

 

[Bernster]

Given how horrific and intense social media can be, I really think people (generally, not aimed at hho) should be more measured in terms of the comments made about the rider. I agree with MP. I’m not condoning it, I’m not saying what she did was ok, and there def need to be changes, but I have an awful feeling that she will be on the receiving end of some pretty vile and sustained online abuse.

 

[ester]

Hopefully link works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm! Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911

 

[Dave's Mam]

Holysh1t.