Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

Casey76

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Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.
She willfully and repeatedly abused a horse on live television for ego. And then had a temper tantrum and took that temper out on the horse. She deserves to be held up and called an abuser.
 

paddy555

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Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.

but she didn't make a mistake what she did was deliberate horse abuse. Looking at the pics of that horse that was what it was. No getting away from it. You have a choice whether to use a whip on a horse.
She put her desire to win above looking after the horse.

You can't imagine the anguish she felt. I can't imagine the anguish and pain the horse felt.

She will be judged and I hope she is, harshly. Perhaps that will highlight unacceptable behaviour to others competing with horses.

She had the choice of giving up the horse when it was first obvious it wasn't going to work and I don't know why her coach or the stewards didn't put an abrupt halt to it. When she managed to get into the ring and it went seriously wrong she could have dismounted and led him out.

She shouldn't have been competing in an event that required animals if she couldn't control her temper and that horse most certainly shouldn't have been there for it's own welfare.

She reminded me of a small child having a temper tantrum.

The Nick Skelton pic earlier in this thread doesn't do horse competitors any favours either.
 

milliepops

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tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.

for the avoidance of doubt, since it seems like anything less than furious condemnation is taken to be taken as enthusiastic MP flag waving support, no, i don't think it should continue in its present form and no i don't condone horse abuse and no i wouldn't let anyone use my horses for it
 

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Goodness, I personally thought some riders did okay concerning making it around the course in a way that wasn't a bother to the horse. I had to turn off my social media. Non equestrians are up in arms about horses in the Olympics again- what else is new- and the armchair judges are acting as if all the riders were terrible (Which there where a few decent ones if they had more training). It deeply saddens me how no matter what, horses will never truly be accepted as a qualifying sport to the general public. All they see is the exclusiveness of it.

Concerning the woman, Saint boy should've been pulled from round one, and although I can understand her frustration, there comes a point where you should've just gotten off and not force the animal on. It wasn't going to happen. A medal isn't worth the safety of both horse and rider in the slightest.

I also strongly agree that the jumps were out of reach for many of the riders. They need to lower the jumps and set higher standards for the riding, horsemanship and tbh the sportsmanship aspects.
 
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ycbm

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the armchair judges are acting as if all the riders were terrible


How many riders being predictably terrible year after year are you prepared to accept? My own answer to that is zero. This competition is set up time after time knowing some horses will be abused (deliberately or accidentally) by less than capable riders. We don't, imo, have the right to plan to treat sentient beings that way, still less display it as world class sport, to millions.
.
 

ycbm

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Non equestrians are up in arms about horses in the Olympics again- ......... It deeply saddens me how no matter what, horses will never truly be accepted as a qualifying sport to the general public. All they see is the exclusiveness of it.

There are plenty of equestrians up in arms about it too.
 

tristar

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Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.


the difference is we can make choices that horses have no say in, i would think its not the first time the reversing horse has done that, so would have been a poor choice for the competition

its a tough day for her, but you get over it and move on, the essence of sport is to take defeat gracefully, so i was surprised to see her crying, this is why they need decide where it went wrong, it seemed to me the

horse was expressing some very clear emotions

this was a particular scenario of unique moments, very few go to the games, the pressure is enormous, but at the end of the day its only sport.
 

FinalCanter

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How many riders being predictably terrible year after year are you prepared to accept? My own answer to that is zero. This competition is set up time after time knowing some horses will be abused (deliberately or accidentally) by less than capable riders. We don't, imo, have the right to plan to treat sentient beings that way, still less display it as world class sport, to millions.
.

I just added to my message the standards need to be up to par, but I'm not going to paint every rider with the same brush. Some rode decently. You are acting as if MP equestrian phase is the only equestrian olympic sport that has had mishaps. There are times in which horses and riders in the dressage rounds and eventing rounds (from capable riders) should have had a safety check. There were horses in the eventing phase that were too old and struggling, there were riders in the dressage round that had their horses heads behind the vertical. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly, all equestrian sports imo need to be up to par. Even 'capable' riders get away with certain things at the expense of the horse.
 

ester

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tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.

It certainly seemed to me that we saw the end of an eventful 20 mins of getting to know said horse, probably some emotional discussion as to why she couldn't swap to the reverse horse and she knew it wasn't going to happen.
It frustrates me that it has thrown up issues in every olympics yet they don't seem to have ever been properly addressed. There is quite a lot that could be put into place to make it better.
I did also wonder about the horses doing 2 rounds and 2 lots of 20 mins in relatively quick succession given the heat.
 

ycbm

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You are acting as if MP equestrian phase is the only equestrian olympic sport that has had mishaps.

I don't call it "mishaps" to give people 20 minutes to ride a horse they don't know before jumping 1m 20, when year after year it produces the same result. Honest horses abused for trying their best with riders who are not up to the task.

It's completely unnecessary. You can't win show jumping gold without show jumping. But the modern pentathlon is supposed to be a test of horsemanship and there are a million and one other ways to test that without socking a horse in the teeth over a fence because the rider is being carried as an ineffective passenger.
.
 

FinalCanter

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I don't call it "mishaps" to give people 20 minutes to ride a horse they don't know before jumping 1m 20, when year after year it produces the same result. Honest horses abused for trying their best with riders who are not up to the task.

It's completely unnecessary. You can't win show jumping gold without show jumping. But the modern pentathlon is supposed to be a test of horsemanship and there are a million and one other ways to test that without socking a horse in the teeth over a fence because the rider is being carried as an ineffective passenger.
.

Yes, I think they need to lower the jumps, or put in a different type of test for them (equitation or dressage) for it, but you glossed over the main point of my message about everything needs to be better and up to par, including MP. You are looking to bait arguments, as you've been on many pages of this thread with the same points. We hear you, many of us do agree to an extent already.

I'm going to move on as I've already expressed my points to you. Let's agree to disagree. Cheers.
 

ycbm

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Yes, I think they need to lower the jumps, or put in a different type of test for them (equitation or dressage) for it, but you glossed over the main point of my message about everything needs to be better and up to par, including MP. You are looking to bait arguments, as you've been on many pages of this thread with the same points. We hear you, many of us do agree to an extent already.

I'm going to move on as I've already expressed my points to you. Let's agree to disagree. Cheers.

I'm expressing a view I hold in response to others, including you, who are expressing theirs. I had stopped posting on this thread but I thought your points required a response. (ETA you introduced two new points, that it was only some of the rounds that there was an issue with and some riders rode well, and that it was non equestrians who were concerned.) You then chose to further the debate with me, so please don't accuse me of baiting, I am simply debating.

I'm not glossing over anything, in terms of horse welfare there are problems with all levels of equestrianism and I don't claim to be totally blame free myself. But it's my opinion that the equestrian element of MP is far worse than any of the other Olympic equestrian disciplines in terms of visible and foreseeable horse welfare problems during the competition.
.
 

Abi90

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Have you guys read this?
https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon
At least concerns have been noted, what action eventually will be taken, who knows!

I read it and felt it was a very political and non committal statement. They obviously need to review things and need the time to do that but I don’t feel that statement holds them to anything other than acknowledging concerns. I certainly don’t get the warm and fuzzies from it
 

Tiddlypom

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The statement is making many of the right noises, isn't it. But will it be followed up by tangible improvements wrt to the equestrian angle?

UIPM OFFICIAL STATEMENT: HORSE WELFARE AND ATHLETE SAFETY IN MODERN PENTATHLON

The events of August 6, 2021 in the Tokyo Stadium have caused distress both inside and outside the global UIPM Sports community.

Riding is an integral part of the Modern Pentathlon, as envisaged by Baron Pierre de Coubertin, who aimed to create the ultimate test of moral and physical qualities. The ability to control a horse in a competitive situation is part of the pentathlon toolkit – the Olympic champion must prove they can swim, fence, ride, shoot and run to a high level to earn the coveted gold medal.

The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling.

While the number of refusals and falls on August 6 was slightly above average, the Olympic Games is designed as the most challenging of all competitions. The experience of Annika Schleu (GER) and Gulnaz Gubaydullina (ROC) on Saint Boy was unusual in high-level Modern Pentathlon, especially for riders of their proven ability.

That said, UIPM has a duty of care to all participants in the competitions it oversees; this includes the Olympic Games and it includes horses.

Not only will UIPM conduct a full review of the Riding discipline of the Women’s Modern Pentathlon at the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games, it will also reinforce the importance of horse welfare and athlete safety across the entire global competition structure. UIPM regrets the trauma suffered by Saint Boy in this high-profile incident and has penalised the coach who violated the UIPM Competition Rules by striking the horse from outside the ring.

Although no athlete or horse was physically injured on August 6, the best possible safeguards must be in place to minimise risk in future.

Changes in Riding were already in the pipeline due to the new Modern Pentathlon format coming into force in 2022 for the Paris 2024 Olympic cycle. Horse welfare and athlete safety will be at the centre of this process and the UIPM 2021 Congress in November will provide an opportunity for UIPM’s national member federations to participate in a collective effort to secure the future of Riding in Modern Pentathlon.
 

Rowreach

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Have you guys read this?
https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon
At least concerns have been noted, what action eventually will be taken, who knows!

When I saw that this morning I thought:

1. You’ve had decades to sort this out and you haven’t, and the current review has nothing to do with the main issue of horse welfare so don’t pretend otherwise and

2. If you are claiming that these athletes are at the top level of their sport, yet clearly so many are not at the standard required to jump a strange horse over a 1.20m course, then you have a funny idea of what top level means.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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When I saw that this morning I thought:

1. You’ve had decades to sort this out and you haven’t, and the current review has nothing to do with the main issue of horse welfare so don’t pretend otherwise and

2. If you are claiming that these athletes are at the top level of their sport, yet clearly so many are not at the standard required to jump a strange horse over a 1.20m course, then you have a funny idea of what top level means.
I completely agree
 

Winters100

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tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.

for the avoidance of doubt, since it seems like anything less than furious condemnation is taken to be taken as enthusiastic MP flag waving support, no, i don't think it should continue in its present form and no i don't condone horse abuse and no i wouldn't let anyone use my horses for it

This was also my interpretation. I think she was terrified, desperate, and as an inexperienced rider had probably never had a horse react like this and had not a clue what to do. I would put most of the blame for this on the officials who allowed it to go on. One would assume that if a horse was lame during the warm up or shortly after entering the ring then an alternative would be found, and the competitor would be allowed to change horses, so why could the same not be done when the horse was suffering mentally? Do they have any check during warm up to see if going into the arena is safe for the horse and rider? It would seem not.

I also feel sorry for her. As Millipops said, not condemning the rider does not mean that I support this. I do not believe that horses should be part of this event, and over my dead body would a horse in my care take part, but I cannot help but feel empathy for a young woman put in this situation, knowing that getting off the horse might prompt anger from her coaches and team-mates, and trying to deal with something that was beyond her capabilities.
 

paddy555

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As has previously been shown by many equestrians at the Olympics this year including 2 on the British team.

These so called pentathletes need to take a leaf out of a regular equestrians book.

you have highlighted the 2 groups of people. The equestrians who not only have to jump the course but who also (or at least their grooms) have to take the horse home, resolve any physical problems it has incurred and deal with the mental ones they have caused. Their responsibility.

The other group are athletes. The horse is only the means to an end, a medal. I am sure many of them would rather not have the horses but some other test eg cycling. At the end of the day that girl walks away from the horse. Did she check it's legs, was she the one who cooled it out, check it overnight. Nope, 30 mins with the horse and that is her done for the day as far as horsemanship skills go.
 

Winters100

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The statement is making many of the right noises, isn't it. But will it be followed up by tangible improvements wrt to the equestrian angle?

UIPM OFFICIAL STATEMENT: HORSE WELFARE AND ATHLETE SAFETY IN MODERN PENTATHLON


The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling.
.

And this is exactly the problem. The organisers themselves admit that they like the fact that it is unpredictable and 'dramatic'.

Most horse owners do all they can to avoid unpredictable situations, it is why we introduce horses to new experiences on a step by step basis, and do not just throw a saddle on an unbroken horse and get on. We also do our best to avoid dramas, which benefit neither the horse nor the rider. I did not think that they could say anything that could make it worse in my eyes, but they have.
 

conniegirl

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The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.
They could start by eliminating anyone who falls off and anyone who gets 3 refusals. Disallowing the use of spurs and enforcing much stronger whip rules.
Also for the “elite” level athletes a riding trial conducted by the international federation before they are allowed to step up to that level.
National federations seem to either not be conducting any form of check or are vastly overestimating their athletes ability so the oversight needs to be removed from them.

People will soon up thier game if told you can’t compete until you get better
 
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LadyGascoyne

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I think the issue is a complete lack of horsemanship in the majority of competitors. They might be able to ride but they clearly know nothing about how to work with a horse.

The concept of being able to get onto a strange horse and ride to safety is actually completely undermined by the approach demonstrated.

I’d support the approach of getting horse and rider to solve a problem together, graded on the partnership - equitation would be good.

I feel sorry for the German girl - she was clearly completely unequipped to deal with the situation. I dislike the sport for sticking totally unequipped people on live animals and aiming them at big fences. What a great plan that is!
 

ester

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I was sad enough to rifle through the rules re. changing horse.
They don't copy and paste very well though- page 66 for the vet stuff (which seems to concentrate only on lameness which I think is a flaw) and page 70 for other reasons.
and bit on if the rider thinks the horse is not fit :
Before mounting, a pentathlete may ask for an examination of their horse if they think
it is not fit to start. After consultation with the Veterinarian, the UIPM TD/NTO may
decide to permit a change of the horse.

https://www.uipmworld.org/sites/default/files/uipm_comp_rules_and_reg_2018_a5_v3.pdf
 

Tiddlypom

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Once mounted the count down begins. It is only permitted to change a horse after this if it is deemed lame by the officials. Nothing about if the horse is performing very poorly in the warm up arena or if it is getting upset or agitated.

Confirming that the horse is merely a tool, another piece of equipment.
 

catkin

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Once mounted the count down begins. It is only permitted to change a horse after this if it is deemed lame by the officials. Nothing about if the horse is performing very poorly in the warm up arena or if it is getting upset or agitated.

Confirming that the horse is merely a tool, another piece of equipment.

In which case then all the suggestions for a different riding test are merely more of the same - which makes a complete mockery of other equestrian sports which are all about a partnership winning a contest.
All horse sports rely on a social contract with the rest of society about how the horses are regarded, i.e. as beloved partners. Looking at this through this prism if this section of MP is not redesigned into something with inanimate sports equipment then all equestrian will be swept away from the Olympics.
 
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