Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Some TREC hybrid then?

Yup ☺

 

[oldie48]

It's not about picking the wrong target, it's about addressing something that a lot of people worldwide are talking about this weekend, and which to my mind should not happen in any context, but in this context the Olympic Games, again.

Which things are we all going to ignore and let slide because there are worse things apparently going on at the same time (which we should be addressing as well)? Why not take advantage of the worldwide coverage this has got, and use it to educate, review, change something that has been going on for decades but is only really seen once every four years? Why are so many people on this thread, horse people no less, defending MP because it has always had the riding element in it, instead of accepting that change is needed?

I'm still stunned at the suggestion that if you ride badly in MP you get a bad score, and that that is somehow ok

I've suggested moving away from Sj in the MP but I see you have chosen not to include that part of my post. However, I stand by what I have said later (also not posted) that I see more sustained abuse of horses in the non pro equestrian world.

 

[Winters100]

I read about it in The Telegraph then watched the accompanying video. It was hardly a punch more a shove as the horse was napping backwards into the rails around the ring I had to watch the clip twice to she the shove. Interesting in the public comments many said "that was not a punch" Of course none of us know how the horse had behaved in the warm up 20 minutes. But as others have said it was not pretty and the athlete should have requested an alternate when she had the option to do so.

I also did not see any big 'punch' to the horse in the clip I watched.

For me expelling the coach misses the point, I do not believe that she hurt the horse based upon what I have seen. The horse was obviously distressed, and either in pain, or not experienced enough or suited to such a situation for whatever reason, and it is the fact that the competition continued at this point that bothers me more. An owner in this situation would (hopefully) react very differently to a competitor with a medal at stake, who did not even know the horse. It seems to me that they are seeking to show that they have addressed the problem by expelling the coach, when the reality is that this should never have happened, and the horse should never have been in this situation. Why it was not stopped when the horse started showing distress is beyond me. I also read that this horse was later ridden by another competitor who failed to get it as far as the first jump - if this is correct why on earth was a distressed animal sent in to the arena again, and why did the owners allow it?

Shocking, and I hope that the owner and organizers are now ashamed of themselves.

 

[milliepops]

I also read that this horse was later ridden by another competitor who failed to get it as far as the first jump - if this is correct why on earth was a distressed animal sent in to the arena again, and why did the owners allow it?

For clarity, that's not correct, the German rider was the last to go and the horse was not included in the draw for the mens sj today.

 

[Peglo]

I think the Fosbury flop in the high jump can show how finding a great technique and skill can change the entire sport from the Olympics to training children starting out the sport. I just feel all Olympians should perform at top level. If throwing knives around human targets was an Olympic sport and no one got hurt in the actual sport but plenty of people were hit by knives in the MP or heptathlon then they wouldn’t allow it to go ahead because they ‘can’t be expected to be top of all fields of the competition.’ There’s no way those horses came away from that pain free.

I like the idea of having horses part of the MP but it is not working and welfare of horses MUST be priority and they just weren’t. I would far rather a pony club games/obstacle style thing if it had to go ahead. Looping a hoop on a joust, jumping off and sprinting along buckets and vaulting back on, maybe a couple of smaller jumps etc. I feel it would be less harsh on the horses and make the riders do more work and have better skills than sitting on an amazing horse who is so willing whilst they are hauling on their mouths, jabbing spurs into their sides and whipping them. (Not all rode like that obviously but even one is one too many)

 

[Winters100]

For clarity, that's not correct, the German rider was the last to go and the horse was not included in the draw for the mens sj today.

Thanks Millipops. I checked the article that I read earlier,and you are right, although it says that the poor horse had previously refused to jump for Russian competitor Gulnaz Gubajdullina, so strange that horses do 2 rounds with different competitors - surely big advantage to whoever rides the 2nd time round (albeit not in this case)

Horrible situation and I hope that the poor horse is now at home resting and getting over this stress.

 

[Equi]

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ping-team-news-photo/1234516253?adppopup=true

Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away ?

 

[fetlock]

I think the Fosbury flop in the high jump can show how finding a great technique and skill can change the entire sport from the Olympics to training children starting out the sport. I just feel all Olympians should perform at top level. If throwing knives around human targets was an Olympic sport and no one got hurt in the actual sport but plenty of people were hit by knives in the MP or heptathlon then they wouldn’t allow it to go ahead because they ‘can’t be expected to be top of all fields of the competition.’ There’s no way those horses came away from that pain free.

I like the idea of having horses part of the MP but it is not working and welfare of horses MUST be priority and they just weren’t. I would far rather a pony club games/obstacle style thing if it had to go ahead. Looping a hoop on a joust, jumping off and sprinting along buckets and vaulting back on, maybe a couple of smaller jumps etc. I feel it would be less harsh on the horses and make the riders do more work and have better skills than sitting on an amazing horse who is so willing whilst they are hauling on their mouths, jabbing spurs into their sides and whipping them. (Not all rode like that obviously but even one is one too many)

A handy pony/timed roads and tracks event round the edges of the cross country course, with a gate to open and shut, a few natural small fences to pop over along the way, with penalties given for being too fast as well as too slow. Something like that would still be within the spirit of the event. In fact more so. I guess it could work in an arena to some extent too.
Have them carry a raw egg in their pocket, with penalties if they crack it.
Ok, it's a bit "It's a Knockout" but would be interesting to watch and easier on the horse.

 

[Equi]

I think the point of the pentathlon is that it’s all in one place though. So they can do all 5 events one after the other (I’m just saying what I heard the commentator say)

but I do agree a trec style test would be much better, cause it’s technical and you have to show decent skill to open and close a gate etc. May not be as “exciting” to them but would hopfully be a damn sight nicer to the horses. And as with trec, the better the style/speed with style the bigger the marks. Trec won’t tolerate poor horsemanship.

 

[Mule]

I think the point of the pentathlon is that it’s all in one place though. So they can do all 5 events one after the other (I’m just saying what I heard the commentator say)

but I do agree a trec style test would be much better, cause it’s technical and you have to show decent skill to open and close a gate etc. May not be as “exciting” to them but would hopfully be a damn sight nicer to the horses. And as with trec, the better the style/speed with style the bigger the marks. Trec won’t tolerate poor horsemanship.

I think for the riding part to be Olympic worthy it has to be more ambitious in terms of skill required than things like opening and closing a gate.

 

[meleeka]

I think this sport is insulting to the actual showjumpers. They take years training and building up partnerships with their horses and learning the skills to get round a course. To me, this part of the decathlon implies that all you need to be able to do is ride!

 

[Sandstone1]

Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away ?

The teeth do look odd.

 

[laura_nash]

I think for the riding part to be Olympic worthy it has to be more ambitious in terms of skill required than things like opening and closing a gate.

I think there's plenty of skill required to quickly and cleanly open and close a gate etc trec-style on your average random trekking pony type horse. As much as there is to hang on to and steer a SJ schoolmaster type whilst it jumps around a course for you, basically relying on (and probably mucking up) all the hard work its owner/trainer has done rather than the riders input (which was what a lot of the riders were doing).

It would be much more in keeping with the original intent (how likely is it the random horse you nicked behind enemy lines is a well trained SJer) and make it easier for host countries that don't have a big SJing tradition.

Most importantly it would show up the riders and non riders without compromising the horses welfare, providing strict rules on tack and behaviour were enforced.

 

[ycbm]

The teeth do look odd.

Crib biter?
.

 

[little_critter]

Where have they commented?

I’ve seen comments from both on Facebook

 

[ycbm]

I think there's plenty of skill required to quickly and cleanly open and close a gate etc trec-style on your average random trekking pony type horse. As much as there is to hang on to and steer a SJ schoolmaster type whilst it jumps around a course for you, basically relying on (and probably mucking up) all the hard work its owner/trainer has done rather than the riders input (which was what a lot of the riders were doing).

It would be much more in keeping with the original intent (how likely is it the random horse you nicked behind enemy lines is a well trained SJer) and make it easier for host countries that don't have a big SJing tradition.

Most importantly it would show up the riders and non riders without compromising the horses welfare, providing strict rules on tack and behaviour were enforced.

If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure? stuff, so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles, stop in the box, trot away. Repeat in canter.

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot.

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m.

Anything else?

 

[Tiddlypom]

The MP horses each jumped 4 rounds, all with different riders, over the two days - twice in the womens' event, and then again twice in the mens'.

Coincidentally Kate French and Joe Choong drew the same horse.

I didn't see any evidence after each round of the immediate vet check/aggressive cooling off that the proper show jumpers and eventers got .

 

[Sandstone1]

Crib biter?
.

Maybe. Another sign of stress.

 

[laura_nash]

If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure? stuff, so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles, stop in the box, trot away. Repeat in canter.

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot.

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m.

Anything else?

Jump a "ditch".

Maybe the "under low branches" test as per trec.

 

[shortstuff99]

Statement today https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon

 

[oldie48]

Perhaps a JAS type competition but with much lower jumps would be a better measure but I still don't know how you'd deal with a horse that naps badly or shuts down like this horse did. It's not as if these riders can do what we do when things go wrong, we just accept that it can happen and go home and work on putting things into place so it doesn't happen again but for these competitors it's not like that. With all the current focus on the pressures put on athletes (and the pressure they put on themselves) and the consequences for their mental health, I'm really shocked by how judgemental some people are.

 

[fetlock]

If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure? stuff, so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles, stop in the box, trot away. Repeat in canter.

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot.

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m.

Anything else?

An "around the world".

In their swimming cossies and trainers - straight after the swimming when they're still dripping wet - with their fencing blades strapped to their backs and guns tucked into their pants.

That'll sort the wheat from the chaff...

 

[marmalade76]

If they wanted to stick with the military roots a LeTrec or working equitation type test would work well.

Or something like a short dressage test followed by say 5 fences with marks for style/safety/horsemanship as well as the penalties for a knock down.

Agreed, even a simple xc course would be more appropriate to the roots of it.

 

[paddy555]

Perhaps a JAS type competition but with much lower jumps would be a better measure but I still don't know how you'd deal with a horse that naps badly or shuts down like this horse did. It's not as if these riders can do what we do when things go wrong, we just accept that it can happen and go home and work on putting things into place so it doesn't happen again but for these competitors it's not like that. With all the current focus on the pressures put on athletes (and the pressure they put on themselves) and the consequences for their mental health, I'm really shocked by how judgemental some people are.

did you miss post 396. What about the horse's mental health? or doesn't that matter. Oh and the whip, the spurs and the pressure on his head and mouth. Spectator sport for the pleasure of the rider and followers. Now't to do with the horse's welfare.

 

[oldie48]

did you miss post 396. What about the horse's mental health? or doesn't that matter. Oh and the whip, the spurs and the pressure on his head and mouth. Spectator sport for the pleasure of the rider and followers. Now't to do with the horse's welfare.

My post doesn't ignore the welfare of the horse just raises the issue of the mental health of the rider. I don't see how the abuse she is receiving and there is plenty around, helps to improve the welfare of any horse in any way. I don't want to see horses being ridden like that anymore than you do and my previous posts make that clear. I'd prefer to see the equestrian element of the MP removed entirely and replaced with a modern equivalent (see my first post) but if it is to remain then I have suggested an alternative (JAS at a lower height) which I think would encourage a better standard of riding, however, I understand there are already plans to change the format of the MP which would seem to be a very positive way forward.

 

[tristar]

but they dont have the right to put their pressures on the horse, who understandably could become confused and agitated by the sheer tension of these people, they know what they are about so should have the skill to calm, settle and prepare the horse, because its as much about that as jumping a round, the horsemanship part, cause they aint machines for god sake!

when you enter the arena in front of the world you will be judged on the manner in which you perform as much as on your success

 

[criso]

From what I've read the planned format changes are about making it quicker and easier for viewers to understand. In Paris everything will happen in 90 minutes with short breaks between phases. Riding will be first and competitors will be elminated at each stage leaving only 12 for the final run.

Obviously after what's happened there are additional discussions taking place but the planned format changes won't change anything for the jumping in fact putting more time pressure may make it rushed giving even less time to consider the horse.

 

[milliepops]

From what I've read the planned format changes are about making it quicker and easier for viewers to understand. In Paris everything will happen in 90 minutes with short breaks between phases. Riding will be first and competitors will be elminated at each stage leaving only 12 for the final run.

Obviously after what's happened there are additional discussions taking place but the planned format changes won't change anything for the jumping in fact putting more time pressure may make it rushed giving even less time to consider the horse.

but if you face getting eliminated right at the start might it also encourage people to really work on improving their riding?
One of the men's medalists was someone that the commentators pointed out had really worked hard on his riding training and if that was the case then it really had paid off.

 

[criso]

but if you face getting eliminated right at the start might it also encourage people to really work on improving their riding?
One of the men's medalists was someone that the commentators pointed out had really worked hard on his riding training and if that was the case then it really had paid off.

It depends on how far riding challenges are the result of not enough effort or lack of aptitude and temperament. I know loads of people who don't jump anymore and ride probably far more often than these athletes do i.e several times a week with regular lessons. Luckily they don't happen to be good at 4 other sports so no one expects them to leave the ground.

However I do think there will be a little less pressure at the start, the women on Saint Boy was in the lead. If she was right down the bottom, if she was struggling in the warm up, she might have chosen to retire. Looking at the state she was in right from when she got in the ring, I suspect the problems had started before.

The only things I can think of to make it kinder on the horses if this format stays would be more time. Allocate horses to riders for the duration, make them available earlier i.e. days before and assessment by independent experts to make sure the combination are safe before allowing them to continue.

 

[oldie48]

but they dont have the right to put their pressures on the horse, who understandably could become confused and agitated by the sheer tension of these people, they know what they are about so should have the skill to calm, settle and prepare the horse, because its as much about that as jumping a round, the horsemanship part, cause they aint machines for god sake!

when you enter the arena in front of the world you will be judged on the manner in which you perform as much as on your success

Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.