Totilas - circus show?

cptrayes

cptrayes

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I watched the Totilas world record freestyle on uTube last night. The horse is enthralling. The ease with which he does phenomenal movements is unbelievable. His down transitions, from full extension in trot into a halt with no intervening stride in a smaller trot, for example, are extraordinary. BUT. I am unhappy about where dressage is going with this. Wonderful as he is, he is not natural. He is an extreme of selective breeding that I fear will end up like the worst of show dogs. In fact it may already have done so. I wonder just how many horses are not staying sound to his age, nine, and how much longer he himself will be able to go on producing such incredibly extravagent movement without getting arthritis or tendon strains. It just doesn't feel right to me, it feels as if we are heading for future international dressage competition to be full of genetically engineered freaks.

What do you think?
 
I see where you are coming from. I'm not a dressage fan but the horse was spectacular. However, to my untrained and showjumping eye, I thought his trot was much better than his canter and his half passes weren't all that special. I actually totally agree with you, in dressage there seems to an emphasis on a certain kind of movement which is actually of little practical use to actually do something with that movement, other than a dressage test. So many of those dressagey-type canters don't actually go anywhere. And yes, he was a shiny black horse which seems the way to go in dressage too.
 
My friend and I have seen him twice now at both Hickstead and Windsor, plus watched him on Youtube numerous times. Whereas I thought Salinero and all the other top horses appear the same on screen as in the flesh, we both agreed Totilas is a totally different horse when you watch him in real life, whether or not you like his movement, he has a huge presence and energy about him. I doubt there were many people on Saturday night that weren't left a little teary eyed. I was left in awe, for a second time, which I really hadn't expected.

I don't think his extended trot is as technically correct as some other horses, and obviously his one times aren't established, but his elasticity, straightness and relaxed temperament (Edward cantered him round in the lap of honour on a very loose rein) are just outstanding. I don't think he would be an easy to ride at all, he looks like he wants to become tight through his back at times, but I think Edward does do a good job to contain the power and make everything look effortless, bearing in mind what little GP experience this horse has had.

I know what you're saying, but the correct horses did get marked fairly, like Parcival. His work was very fluid and supple. Liebling did the best job he could have done, but he is just not in the same class as some of the others.
 
I think his canter is fantastic and uphill, the extended canter is so controlled yet oozes contained energy. And I think the same of the half passes, very uphill, free through the shoulders and showing a lot of suppleness. For me, it is the trot that is more open to debate than anything else.
 
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Practical use??? You want him to be able to pull a cart then??

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Oh you know, those things that people have traditionally done with horses. Such as hunting. Hacking. Jumping. Anything not in an arena on an aritificial surface.
 
Oh please people can we have a serious discussion about my point and not make stupid remarks like asking if the poster wants him to pull a cart. The poster had a good point - that dressage is becoming entirely for the sake of "doing dressage". That's my point too, and it's heading in a dangerous direction of a future freak show.

This is a serious issue with big horse welfare implications. The likelihood that Totilas has already had hock injections at nine to keep him sound is far too high for comfort. Let's talk about the real issues, please.
 
How do you know that he's had hock injections??

Yes, the horse looks spectacular but he's been bred to do a job and that job is dressage.

As HeadlessHorsewoman said above some of his movements are not yet established but he is only 9 and that will come with time and practice.

I hardly think that the movement he has deserves him being called a circus freak.
 
I think it will be a very long time before the dressage world became full of Totilas, look at how good the sports horse breeding is at the moment, yet there are many dodgy WBs around that never make it past the lower levels. There are just so many factors involved in dressage success besides just flashy paces, I think we need to look at the overall picture.
 
Oh gawd, please can we have a sensible debate on this. I don't know he has had hock injections. I didn't say I did. But I know that a HUGE proportion of horses competing at his level have, and do on a routine basis.

This isn't about his quality either, or whether the best horse won, or whether he is even better in the flesh. I think he is WONDERFUL.

But he is the product of extreme selective breeding over many decades, and it shows. If we continue to breed more and more horses to try to beat his scores, how many horses will be crocked at a very young age and shot? Will dressage be worth watching any more if what we see are genetically selected extremes bred purely to produce 10 scores and fit for practically no other equine use except being eaten?

THOSE are the real questions.
 
EXCUSE ME!! The poster I was replying to with my reference to 'pulling a cart' was sarcasm as the poster said the canter had no practical use. Not much sport has a practical use at the end of the day it is all done for human enjoyment/amusement. I agree that a horse so extravagant at 9 would have to be perfect to stay sound at the level he is competing at. That being the case they could retire him now at the top and sent him to stud. What is wrong with doing Dressage for Dressage sake. If that is what people like doing then so be it. No-one has a problem with Andy Murray just playing tennis do they? If that is what he is talented at then why is that a problem with a horse??? The horse may or may not get variety in his work at home I don't know so cannot comment. Why is it when something is so good we Brits have to find a reason to put it down. Maybe that is why we have taken so long as a nation to get somewhere in dressage. Too quick to criticise and rest on our laurels instead of looking to those nations that are good at it and learning from their training methods and breeding policies. I agree that horses will be bred with flashier paces but most of them will fall by the wayside and never get to the top because there are more good horses around than there are exceptional riders to produce them.
 
I think Totilas is wonderful and I could watch for hours. The point put forward as to whether he will stay sound because of the unnatural movement? Well everything a horse does with a human is unnatural. Horses originally did not carry humans or go jumping fences for no reason? In some ways I can understand what you are saying but we have made them and cross bred them for different purposes to do certain jobs. Show jumping is not natural. I'm not really sure what your post is about? But a circus freak he is not. (well not in my opinion)
 
What's wrong with dressage for dressage sake? It's like showing dogs for showing dogs sake. Eventually you end up with dogs whose eyes won't stay in their heads, dogs whose brains can't fit in their skulls, dogs whose hips fall out of their sockets and dogs who can't breathe.

I would like to know the "wastage rate" of horses who are bred to extremes like Tortilas. He is marvellous. But how many others have been shot already because they broke down under the excesses of moving like that? And now they compete them at three as well.

I speak from experience and from huge concern for horse welfare. I have a very well bred KWPN who moves beautifully. But his brain is mush. If you breed for extremes of movement, something will break somewhere.
 
The difference with the deformed show dogs is that they are not able to perform the job that they were originally bred for and are physically useless. Fortunately horses are not quite in that category to that extreme. If they were we would not be able to ride them. I agree about the wastage but in breeding anything there are no guarantees that the progeny will be as good as the parents. Is Totilas bred to extreme or just a freak of nature?
 
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I admired Totilas for the ease of transitions and his canter, but to be really honest I don't like that trot much at all, of course it is just my personal opinion, but for me it's to pronounced, exaggerated in front, it doesn't cover that much ground and is generally 'showy'. Now the canter is a different matter, the stride is beautifully round and he can do 'proper' extension, not just throw the legs around.
But hey, what do I know...
 
I totally understand your point, i suppose only time will tell.
He is a beautiful horse, absolutely amazing to watch, i think dressage is just astounding sometimes, the movements those horses perform, but i know absolutely nothing about it in honesty. But i think you are right, down the line, the horses bred for this kind of sport may suffer, just as the deformities we have bred into dogs you mention. It is very sad, and i hope this is not the case but i feel the chances are high problems will occur, as it seems they already are.
 
He is an absolutely fabulous horse with a great presence and talent. Once in a while a truely outstanding horse will cast a shadow over others and become a great in it's chosen discipline. Totilas is such a horse. He is not a freak and whether or not you like his movement, this horse is brilliant.

If his breeding was that of a hackney cross with a high knee action, would he be considered a freak then? No so why is his action coming into question now.

Nobody knows what you are going to get when you breed a foal. You can put the genetics together and hope. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but what this horse has, as well as talent is the temperament to see him through and as a stallion, that can only be good for the sport. There is always somebody ready to point the finger.
 
Just out of interest (genuine - this really isn't a loaded question, I really don't know the answer!) - does anyone know if the highstepping breeds like Hackneys are any more prone to joint wear than others? I'm not aware that they are but I'd be curious?
 
Any horse is prone to joint wear and tear. Some horses are born wrong. I think it is totally unjustified to suggest that Totilas may have allready had injections in any of his joints to keep him sound? On what do you base that statement?

Time will tell as to the strength and soundness of this horse. The work that competition horses do puts a huge strain on their anatomy and puts them at a very high risk of injury. However they also get the very best of care and attention in an effort to avoid such a scenario and to keep them fit.

Totilas makes me go 'wow' and brings a lump to my throat just for being the beautiful and talented horse that he is.
 
Steroid injections in the hocks are pretty standard in the dressage world. I used to have lessons with a well known dressage rider and she really tried to persuade me to get my mare them. They are supposed to be preventative as the anti - inflammotories in the steroids hopefully ward off hock problems from developing. When the vet gives them they have to be very careful not to let joint fluid escape. They are also used to keep horses sound once problems have developed.

I do think dressage is going the way that overly inbred show dogs are going. The same goes for some Arabs.

I'm just struggling to see any practical use for those paces. Surely they must be very uncomfortable? At least with jumping, you can see how it used to be for the purpose of going over obstacles, but if you ponced about like that, it would take you ages to get anywhere and you would be jiggled about to pieces! And what is wrong with carriage driving? Its a noble art too, with a very practical use.
 
I don't understand where this suggestion of inbred dressage horses comes from? What horses are inbred? And i don't feel Totilas' paces are in any way 'manufactured' (for want of a better word!) I think they are natural.
 
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What's wrong with dressage for dressage sake? It's like showing dogs for showing dogs sake. Eventually you end up with dogs whose eyes won't stay in their heads, dogs whose brains can't fit in their skulls, dogs whose hips fall out of their sockets and dogs who can't breathe.

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Sorry, I don't think it's at all the same. After all, show dogs are bred for appearance and dressage horses (like showjumpers and eventers, etc, etc) are bred for performance.

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I would like to know the "wastage rate" of horses who are bred to extremes like Tortilas. He is marvellous. But how many others have been shot already because they broke down under the excesses of moving like that? And now they compete them at three as well.

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Is it the breeding though, or the work some young horses are subjected to? Some people (I know this from working with SJers) are not very careful or scrupulous when it comes to working their youngstock; they want to sell them fast and at a high price.
 
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How would this compare today?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulF9XTRVMs

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WOW. What a horse.......

In a comparison to todays dressage horses, hes tiny!!
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I actually prefer the way Dutch Gold moves to Totilas, although I find Totilas wonderful to watch, it doesnt look natural. Yes hes a handsome horse and at only 9 he is doing very well but is he going to peak early on...how old was Dutch Gold before he retired from any form of competition??
 
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I don't understand where this suggestion of inbred dressage horses comes from? What horses are inbred? And i don't feel Totilas' paces are in any way 'manufactured' (for want of a better word!) I think they are natural.

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Unfortunately horses are inbred, it is fairly regular practice to breed grandsire with grand daughter for example, i did work experience at a welsh cob stud years ago, they bred grandsire with grand daughter regularly
 
I'm one of the lucky ones that saw Totilas in action on Saturday night.

On e of the things that really struck me was that he and Kyra's horse were the ones to truelly stretch their necks at walk.

The horse was incredible and relaxed. I was sat half way along the arena, and believe me, that horse can canter.

Um as for freaks, I better give my boy an extra hug tonight, cos he also has Farn, Amor and Pericles in his blood lines (Totilas dam line) and 1/8 trakehner.
 
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