sleepingdragon10
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Daughters previous pony was a particularly feisty welsh a who needs a child with balls of steel on her back...certainly isn't suitable for a nervous novice which, imo, childrens ponies should be.
Totilas - circus show?
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
misst
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread.
I watched it and thought that he looked amazing and it gave me goosebumps. Afterwards my daughter and I thought that we both didn't like his "type" - we both prefer a lighter build of horse and I agree with who ever said he looks like a steroid bound muscle man. Some people like that look and some don't. I am not saying it is right or wrong - just personal taste.
We did both eventually come to the conclusion that whilst we were impressed beyond measure at his athleticism and obedience and his amazing movement, we both thought rather than a dressage test it was more of an entertaining performance and we prefered both the 2nd and 3rd placed horses.
What bothers me is as someone else said "the emperors new clothes" effect - no one can criticise - this is scarey.
Surely everyone can have an opinion even if others don't agree?
I watched it and thought that he looked amazing and it gave me goosebumps. Afterwards my daughter and I thought that we both didn't like his "type" - we both prefer a lighter build of horse and I agree with who ever said he looks like a steroid bound muscle man. Some people like that look and some don't. I am not saying it is right or wrong - just personal taste.
We did both eventually come to the conclusion that whilst we were impressed beyond measure at his athleticism and obedience and his amazing movement, we both thought rather than a dressage test it was more of an entertaining performance and we prefered both the 2nd and 3rd placed horses.
What bothers me is as someone else said "the emperors new clothes" effect - no one can criticise - this is scarey.
Surely everyone can have an opinion even if others don't agree?
kerilli
Well-Known Member
what really interested me in Totilas' kur was that when he was not stepping through behind properly in the tempi changes, he was still perfect in front, as if all his concentration was on what his front legs were doing, does that make sense?
now i've seen that he's been trained in rollkur it makes more sense tbh, that 'learned helplessness' idea... imho most horses that fluff a change behind will then fluff the next one, they react to their tight back and the whole sequence often goes a bit pear-shaped, whereas with T he looked oblivious to the problem at the back and carried on obediently changing huge in front. the extended trot looks similar to me, as if most of his effort and concentration are about the front end.
sorry if that sounds like a load of twaddle!
i will be very interested to see whether he is still sound and competing in a few years. i can think of one gb horse who had absolutely huge movement and elasticity as a young horse and, i've been very very reliably informed, is now an absolute cripple.
now i've seen that he's been trained in rollkur it makes more sense tbh, that 'learned helplessness' idea... imho most horses that fluff a change behind will then fluff the next one, they react to their tight back and the whole sequence often goes a bit pear-shaped, whereas with T he looked oblivious to the problem at the back and carried on obediently changing huge in front. the extended trot looks similar to me, as if most of his effort and concentration are about the front end.
sorry if that sounds like a load of twaddle!
i will be very interested to see whether he is still sound and competing in a few years. i can think of one gb horse who had absolutely huge movement and elasticity as a young horse and, i've been very very reliably informed, is now an absolute cripple.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
[ QUOTE ]
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely but these riders are emulating 'top' riders with their kicky pully riding and merely copying what they see. what do they do when they see rollkur? Top riders should know better! its about what becomes acceptable.
if mad, big lick trots, submission/learned helplessness and hard hands are now considered desirable I'll have no part of it thanks.
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely but these riders are emulating 'top' riders with their kicky pully riding and merely copying what they see. what do they do when they see rollkur? Top riders should know better! its about what becomes acceptable.
if mad, big lick trots, submission/learned helplessness and hard hands are now considered desirable I'll have no part of it thanks.
ForeverBroke_
Well-Known Member
I have to agree that most extreme equestrian sports are very unnatural, whether it be dressage, show jumping, racing..
I'm almost of the mind though that showjumping will give them more "problems," in later life than a dressage horse will. But, I'm happy to be prooved wrong - if you say it nicely anyway
I'm almost of the mind though that showjumping will give them more "problems," in later life than a dressage horse will. But, I'm happy to be prooved wrong - if you say it nicely anyway
Hollycat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I watched and thought he was generally wonderful. I did dislike the front action as the hind did not match it, particularly in extension and i considered that hyperflexion had probably been used to achieve that typical exaggerated action. These are the things i do no
[/ QUOTE ]
This would be my thoughts on his movement too. His trot is essentialy is a trained pace, it is not natural. Even trotting round the field showing off to mares he would not trot like that but would be a lot more natural and less like a hackney I suspect. He is a remarkably athletic horse which has allowed Edward Gal to remodel his trot as it were. A trot can be drastically 'improved' unlike the canter - which on this horse looks a a lot more natural.
Like the OP I believe dressage is going awry. It is big business and has very little to do with the love of the horse at top levels. The horse is just a living machine which can make or break the rider/owner/trainers lives. Naturally when your livelihood is at stake you do what you have to do, irrespective if that is in the best interest of the horse or not. I love the trainability of Totilas and this makes me ashamed of myself. What I am really admiring is the ability of the poor horse to put up with what I personally consider to be abuse. I don't like the way Edward Gal rides and I don't like what I have heard about his training methods. I am a crap rider myself, true, but I feel I am a kind, ethical rider. I don't like rollekeur and as an athlete I know how painful it is to hold the muscles in an un-natural position for long periods which is almost certainly what I suspect the majority of top dressage horses put up with. The ones that do not put up with it go on the scrap heap. I have a choice to do this to myself - the horse does not other than 'playing up'. Irrespective of his ridden life, this horse will almost certainly never have seen the outside of a stable since he was 2 - other than being ridden (in a menage - never on a hack) or on a lucky day, grazed on a halter with his legs bandaged to high heaven. He will never touch another horse - never experience mutual grooming or even be allowed to sniff noses. Yes this is the experience of most stallions and its just the way it (generally) has to be with them. I have ridden and handled a lot of stallions and I accept that. Many stallions are happy enough but they DO need the right temprement - those that don't are unhappy and frustrated.
So in essense when I look at this horses tests and I see this horse to be relaxed and giving his all for his rider, I admire it greatly. But something in me is horrified that what I admire is the ability of this horse and others like him at top level, to put up with un-natural lives and to enjoy those lives instead of living life as a horse. Is it morally right for us to breed horses that are so submissive/accepting that they enjoy living a completly un-natural life as automatons? I don't know. Discuss
I watched and thought he was generally wonderful. I did dislike the front action as the hind did not match it, particularly in extension and i considered that hyperflexion had probably been used to achieve that typical exaggerated action. These are the things i do no
[/ QUOTE ]
This would be my thoughts on his movement too. His trot is essentialy is a trained pace, it is not natural. Even trotting round the field showing off to mares he would not trot like that but would be a lot more natural and less like a hackney I suspect. He is a remarkably athletic horse which has allowed Edward Gal to remodel his trot as it were. A trot can be drastically 'improved' unlike the canter - which on this horse looks a a lot more natural.
Like the OP I believe dressage is going awry. It is big business and has very little to do with the love of the horse at top levels. The horse is just a living machine which can make or break the rider/owner/trainers lives. Naturally when your livelihood is at stake you do what you have to do, irrespective if that is in the best interest of the horse or not. I love the trainability of Totilas and this makes me ashamed of myself. What I am really admiring is the ability of the poor horse to put up with what I personally consider to be abuse. I don't like the way Edward Gal rides and I don't like what I have heard about his training methods. I am a crap rider myself, true, but I feel I am a kind, ethical rider. I don't like rollekeur and as an athlete I know how painful it is to hold the muscles in an un-natural position for long periods which is almost certainly what I suspect the majority of top dressage horses put up with. The ones that do not put up with it go on the scrap heap. I have a choice to do this to myself - the horse does not other than 'playing up'. Irrespective of his ridden life, this horse will almost certainly never have seen the outside of a stable since he was 2 - other than being ridden (in a menage - never on a hack) or on a lucky day, grazed on a halter with his legs bandaged to high heaven. He will never touch another horse - never experience mutual grooming or even be allowed to sniff noses. Yes this is the experience of most stallions and its just the way it (generally) has to be with them. I have ridden and handled a lot of stallions and I accept that. Many stallions are happy enough but they DO need the right temprement - those that don't are unhappy and frustrated.
So in essense when I look at this horses tests and I see this horse to be relaxed and giving his all for his rider, I admire it greatly. But something in me is horrified that what I admire is the ability of this horse and others like him at top level, to put up with un-natural lives and to enjoy those lives instead of living life as a horse. Is it morally right for us to breed horses that are so submissive/accepting that they enjoy living a completly un-natural life as automatons? I don't know. Discuss
sleepingdragon10
Well-Known Member
Each discipline will throw up different problems due to the differences in the way the horses will use themselves, so not sure that any one discipline could be singled out as being any worse than the others.
dressager
Well-Known Member
I don't think they are trying to emulate rollkur... ask the average rider what rollkur is and I'm not sure they would even know. Ever since I was very young and before rollkur was widely known about, I have seen riders trying to pull their horses heads in, and before I was into dressage I admit I tried to "get a horse on the bit" without having a clue what it meant. When I went back to my old stables where I learnt to ride a few weeks ago I was horrified by the amount of hand riding... even when just in walk, the riders were fiddling, pulling the bit downwards, nagging with the leg... But some people just don't like to be told and can't be bothered to understand.
But yes dutch_viscount you are right about people at the top.. and its good the FEI do not accept the practice of rollkur, even though their statement is some what wishy washy.
But yes dutch_viscount you are right about people at the top.. and its good the FEI do not accept the practice of rollkur, even though their statement is some what wishy washy.
somethingorother
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be honest i don't give a fig what Queen Anky said as i think she is highly over rated and uses dubious training methods and it shows. Her friday test was way over marked (although not as bad as i feared it might be) because of who she is, really it wasn't that good a test, especially for someone who is supposed to be an absolute dressage idol. Give me Carl Hester any day.
What i do know is that there is a lot of scientific evidence which is also based on common sense and knowing the horses anatomy, which shows many areas affected adversely by Rollkur. For example it makes breathing difficult by cutting off the windpipe and reducing the open-ness of air flow. It is also bad for the neck muscles both under and upper. It also puts the head in such a position as the horse cannot see where it is going and so mental stress is added to the pile. To be honest it's a while since i looked into it, but i'm sure there were many many more problems caused by it, which anyone who actually wants to look for themselves can find the truth. Those who support rollkur have generally not looked into the scientific evidence as it is much easier just to follow along blindly and trust people who have 'done well' without objectively questioning the ins and outs.
Aside from all that the front end movement and the inability for the back end to match it can clearly be seen in a horse which has been trained with Rollkur. And this movement seems to have been the trigger of this very argument about being unnatural and unattractive.
And that comment about see-sawing of mouths is fairly ludicrous as i don't know many people who would not be disgusted at such a thing (who know what they are doing anyway). I certainly have a sometimes uncontrollable urge to yank these children off their ponies and give them and their parents/ 'instructors' a slap.
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be honest i don't give a fig what Queen Anky said as i think she is highly over rated and uses dubious training methods and it shows. Her friday test was way over marked (although not as bad as i feared it might be) because of who she is, really it wasn't that good a test, especially for someone who is supposed to be an absolute dressage idol. Give me Carl Hester any day.
What i do know is that there is a lot of scientific evidence which is also based on common sense and knowing the horses anatomy, which shows many areas affected adversely by Rollkur. For example it makes breathing difficult by cutting off the windpipe and reducing the open-ness of air flow. It is also bad for the neck muscles both under and upper. It also puts the head in such a position as the horse cannot see where it is going and so mental stress is added to the pile. To be honest it's a while since i looked into it, but i'm sure there were many many more problems caused by it, which anyone who actually wants to look for themselves can find the truth. Those who support rollkur have generally not looked into the scientific evidence as it is much easier just to follow along blindly and trust people who have 'done well' without objectively questioning the ins and outs.
Aside from all that the front end movement and the inability for the back end to match it can clearly be seen in a horse which has been trained with Rollkur. And this movement seems to have been the trigger of this very argument about being unnatural and unattractive.
And that comment about see-sawing of mouths is fairly ludicrous as i don't know many people who would not be disgusted at such a thing (who know what they are doing anyway). I certainly have a sometimes uncontrollable urge to yank these children off their ponies and give them and their parents/ 'instructors' a slap.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with you re. local shows but surely, as long as people at the bottom (ie people at my level!) keep seeing these top riders riding like this, they think it's ok. I've lost count of the amount of people on here who, when pics of rollkur are posted, make comments along the lines of "the horse hasn't thrown him off so he must enjoy working like that".
I've said it before but I would honestly recommend that everyone reads Tug of War which explains exactly what is wrong with hyperflexion. Maybe I'm turning into a tree hugger as I get older but to me, the end just does not justify the means.
And yes, I agree that there needs to be more education at lower levels so people understand how to work their horses. Maybe this comes back to the discussion that's been had on here time and again...should there be some sort of exam required in order to be able to own / ride horses?
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with you re. local shows but surely, as long as people at the bottom (ie people at my level!) keep seeing these top riders riding like this, they think it's ok. I've lost count of the amount of people on here who, when pics of rollkur are posted, make comments along the lines of "the horse hasn't thrown him off so he must enjoy working like that".
I've said it before but I would honestly recommend that everyone reads Tug of War which explains exactly what is wrong with hyperflexion. Maybe I'm turning into a tree hugger as I get older but to me, the end just does not justify the means.
And yes, I agree that there needs to be more education at lower levels so people understand how to work their horses. Maybe this comes back to the discussion that's been had on here time and again...should there be some sort of exam required in order to be able to own / ride horses?
Mithras
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
what really interested me in Totilas' kur was that when he was not stepping through behind properly in the tempi changes, he was still perfect in front, as if all his concentration was on what his front legs were doing, does that make sense?
now i've seen that he's been trained in rollkur it makes more sense tbh, that 'learned helplessness' idea... imho most horses that fluff a change behind will then fluff the next one, they react to their tight back and the whole sequence often goes a bit pear-shaped, whereas with T he looked oblivious to the problem at the back and carried on obediently changing huge in front. the extended trot looks similar to me, as if most of his effort and concentration are about the front end.
sorry if that sounds like a load of twaddle!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I got that feeling too. Its very showy having the front end like that, but is it really necessary? And why?
I thought dressage was all about proper and correct schooling, straightness, lightness in hand, self carriage, the scales of training, balance, suppleness, etc..
Can you imagine what it must be like for one of those horses to be held in that position and spurred to get that movement?
Granted, showjumping is hard on a horses legs, and racing too, but I think dressage must be harder on the hocks, neck and back than anything. And theres not really much escape from it - these horses are bred to be able to do that and to be submissive, so the more they submit to avoid the discomfort, the more they are asked to do it. Theres no real way of escape for a submissive horse. Whereas its pretty damned hard to force a horse to jump or race if it really doesn't want to. ie you aren't holding it in mechanically and strapping it down. You are asking the horse to give you its energy and take you somewhere.
what really interested me in Totilas' kur was that when he was not stepping through behind properly in the tempi changes, he was still perfect in front, as if all his concentration was on what his front legs were doing, does that make sense?
now i've seen that he's been trained in rollkur it makes more sense tbh, that 'learned helplessness' idea... imho most horses that fluff a change behind will then fluff the next one, they react to their tight back and the whole sequence often goes a bit pear-shaped, whereas with T he looked oblivious to the problem at the back and carried on obediently changing huge in front. the extended trot looks similar to me, as if most of his effort and concentration are about the front end.
sorry if that sounds like a load of twaddle!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I got that feeling too. Its very showy having the front end like that, but is it really necessary? And why?
I thought dressage was all about proper and correct schooling, straightness, lightness in hand, self carriage, the scales of training, balance, suppleness, etc..
Can you imagine what it must be like for one of those horses to be held in that position and spurred to get that movement?
Granted, showjumping is hard on a horses legs, and racing too, but I think dressage must be harder on the hocks, neck and back than anything. And theres not really much escape from it - these horses are bred to be able to do that and to be submissive, so the more they submit to avoid the discomfort, the more they are asked to do it. Theres no real way of escape for a submissive horse. Whereas its pretty damned hard to force a horse to jump or race if it really doesn't want to. ie you aren't holding it in mechanically and strapping it down. You are asking the horse to give you its energy and take you somewhere.
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Practical use??? You want him to be able to pull a cart then??
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually KWPN were bred from carriage and draft horses. They were bred from the Gelderlander and Groningen horses, among others.
Practical use??? You want him to be able to pull a cart then??
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually KWPN were bred from carriage and draft horses. They were bred from the Gelderlander and Groningen horses, among others.
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread cptrayes
I have said twice on here already that his front movement is not for me; on the second occasion Memo accused me of having sour grapes because it was not a British horse, which I found really odd
I have been indirectly involved with dog showing all my life, and have seen how selective breeding has destroyed some breeds to the extent where they can no longer perform their original function. I believe that selective breeding to produce a horse with movement like Totilas will end up the same way
I sat and watched his test with real interest, and it was a fantastic show, but I cannot get past the fact that he simply does not move (particularly in front) in a way which I can enjoy. Parcival was a much better mover IMVHO.
As I have said before (and I like the comparison so I will keep using it, thanks to Lucretia for the inspiration!) it is like comparing the movement of an Italian greyhound and a proper greyhound, the IG will never be able to do the same job as a proper greyhound....
I have been indirectly involved with dog showing all my life, and have seen how selective breeding has destroyed some breeds to the extent where they can no longer perform their original function. I believe that selective breeding to produce a horse with movement like Totilas will end up the same way
I sat and watched his test with real interest, and it was a fantastic show, but I cannot get past the fact that he simply does not move (particularly in front) in a way which I can enjoy. Parcival was a much better mover IMVHO.
As I have said before (and I like the comparison so I will keep using it, thanks to Lucretia for the inspiration!) it is like comparing the movement of an Italian greyhound and a proper greyhound, the IG will never be able to do the same job as a proper greyhound....
christine48
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Any horse is prone to joint wear and tear. Some horses are born wrong. I think it is totally unjustified to suggest that Totilas may have allready had injections in any of his joints to keep him sound? On what do you base that statement?
Time will tell as to the strength and soundness of this horse. The work that competition horses do puts a huge strain on their anatomy and puts them at a very high risk of injury. However they also get the very best of care and attention in an effort to avoid such a scenario and to keep them fit.
Totilas makes me go 'wow' and brings a lump to my throat just for being the beautiful and talented horse that he is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree. Whatever the discipline, when we ask our horses to compete to such a high level it is unnatural and they will breakdown. A lot of dressage horses and SJs have hind suspensery trouble and eventers and race horses have a high incidence of flexor tendon injuries. Often it is a case of when it will break not if it will break.
Any horse is prone to joint wear and tear. Some horses are born wrong. I think it is totally unjustified to suggest that Totilas may have allready had injections in any of his joints to keep him sound? On what do you base that statement?
Time will tell as to the strength and soundness of this horse. The work that competition horses do puts a huge strain on their anatomy and puts them at a very high risk of injury. However they also get the very best of care and attention in an effort to avoid such a scenario and to keep them fit.
Totilas makes me go 'wow' and brings a lump to my throat just for being the beautiful and talented horse that he is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree. Whatever the discipline, when we ask our horses to compete to such a high level it is unnatural and they will breakdown. A lot of dressage horses and SJs have hind suspensery trouble and eventers and race horses have a high incidence of flexor tendon injuries. Often it is a case of when it will break not if it will break.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely but these riders are emulating 'top' riders with their kicky pully riding and merely copying what they see. what do they do when they see rollkur? Top riders should know better! its about what becomes acceptable.
if mad, big lick trots, submission/learned helplessness and hard hands are now considered desirable I'll have no part of it thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly what I said earlier on...if this is what it takes to get there, I'd rather we weren't "there".
BTW, sorry I nicked your link from the other thread on SA
[ QUOTE ]
I am not for rollkur at all, but Anky and Sjef have been open about their training methods and have even stated not every horse is suitable for it (ie you need a submissive horse). But personally, I find it just as distressing going to a local show and seeing inexperienced riders see sawing at their horses mouths, trying to hold them in an outline, which surely must cause just as much pain and discomfort in the muscles which are incorrectly developed. This is far more widespread than rollkur is, yet people don't seem to care or wish to be educated, but would rather slate the people at the top even when they don't truly understand their training methods.
[/ QUOTE ]
absolutely but these riders are emulating 'top' riders with their kicky pully riding and merely copying what they see. what do they do when they see rollkur? Top riders should know better! its about what becomes acceptable.
if mad, big lick trots, submission/learned helplessness and hard hands are now considered desirable I'll have no part of it thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly what I said earlier on...if this is what it takes to get there, I'd rather we weren't "there".
BTW, sorry I nicked your link from the other thread on SA
skewby
Well-Known Member
Hugely interesting thread. I watched and watched the clip and decided I liked it - I feel an idiot now I know EG uses Rollkur.
Don't get me started on Manky.
HH what you said about jumping, I know what you mean. But, as I understand it, if you work a horse correctly, really, ultimately correctly, it would canter like that and presented with a fence it would have the power to jump you out of the arena.
Maybe another thread but I think the judges should all be sacked/reeducated by the Spanish Riding School/lined up against a wall and shot, because that's the true issue here. And not just at EG and Anky's level either, at mine too (BD Intro
).
Don't get me started on Manky.
HH what you said about jumping, I know what you mean. But, as I understand it, if you work a horse correctly, really, ultimately correctly, it would canter like that and presented with a fence it would have the power to jump you out of the arena.
Maybe another thread but I think the judges should all be sacked/reeducated by the Spanish Riding School/lined up against a wall and shot, because that's the true issue here. And not just at EG and Anky's level either, at mine too (BD Intro
misst
Well-Known Member
I wondered if he used rolkur but wasn't sure - that has put me off more now.
Regarding less able riders using it I was unlucky enough (for a short time) to be at a livery yard where 2 members of staff were trained by a very well known respected Uk dressage rider. They both rode lovely horses and excercised a couple of other liveries horses in very very deep outlines and very overbent.
All the horses involved were Prelim/novice type horses with one competing at medium.
2 of the horses were brought in to produce and sell on. It was horrible to watch them being ridden like this and both horses objected violently to this advanced movement at the age of 6.
They ended up nappy/rearing/backward thinking horses who were forced time and again to school until they submitted.
They did not do well.
The respected trainer came and watched and seemed to encourage this riding. It was nasty to watch and I for one would not dream of buying a horse trained in this way.
Regarding less able riders using it I was unlucky enough (for a short time) to be at a livery yard where 2 members of staff were trained by a very well known respected Uk dressage rider. They both rode lovely horses and excercised a couple of other liveries horses in very very deep outlines and very overbent.
All the horses involved were Prelim/novice type horses with one competing at medium.
2 of the horses were brought in to produce and sell on. It was horrible to watch them being ridden like this and both horses objected violently to this advanced movement at the age of 6.
They ended up nappy/rearing/backward thinking horses who were forced time and again to school until they submitted.
They did not do well.
The respected trainer came and watched and seemed to encourage this riding. It was nasty to watch and I for one would not dream of buying a horse trained in this way.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hugely interesting thread. I watched and watched the clip and decided I liked it - I feel an idiot now I know EG uses Rollkur.
Don't get me started on Manky.
HH what you said about jumping, I know what you mean. But, as I understand it, if you work a horse correctly, really, ultimately correctly, it would canter like that and presented with a fence it would have the power to jump you out of the arena.
Maybe another thread but I think the judges should all be sacked/reeducated by the Spanish Riding School/lined up against a wall and shot, because that's the true issue here. And not just at EG and Anky's level either, at mine too (BD Intro
).
[/ QUOTE ]
*snigger* @ Manky
That's my new favourite thing I've ever heard on a forum
Hugely interesting thread. I watched and watched the clip and decided I liked it - I feel an idiot now I know EG uses Rollkur.
Don't get me started on Manky.
HH what you said about jumping, I know what you mean. But, as I understand it, if you work a horse correctly, really, ultimately correctly, it would canter like that and presented with a fence it would have the power to jump you out of the arena.
Maybe another thread but I think the judges should all be sacked/reeducated by the Spanish Riding School/lined up against a wall and shot, because that's the true issue here. And not just at EG and Anky's level either, at mine too (BD Intro
[/ QUOTE ]
*snigger* @ Manky
dressager
Well-Known Member
LOL!!! On a lead rein in the prize giving, doing rising trot, did make me chuckle
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of interest (genuine - this really isn't a loaded question, I really don't know the answer!) - does anyone know if the highstepping breeds like Hackneys are any more prone to joint wear than others? I'm not aware that they are but I'd be curious?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a Gelderlander another high stepping horse, he has never been lame *touch wood*
Just out of interest (genuine - this really isn't a loaded question, I really don't know the answer!) - does anyone know if the highstepping breeds like Hackneys are any more prone to joint wear than others? I'm not aware that they are but I'd be curious?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a Gelderlander another high stepping horse, he has never been lame *touch wood*
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Dressage means schooling ......
Is this horse genetically engineered......
you cannot predictably breed for ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is schooling and schooling.
No, he is selectively bred. There is no "genetic engineering" as in "inserting foreign genes into the horses's genome" in dressage horses.
You cannot breed for ability? Yes you can. It's why the continentals have beaten we Brits for decades and why almost none of the top horses in SJ or DR are British bred. Now they are breeding eventers too, and the current World Champion is a continental warmblood.
Dressage means schooling ......
Is this horse genetically engineered......
you cannot predictably breed for ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is schooling and schooling.
No, he is selectively bred. There is no "genetic engineering" as in "inserting foreign genes into the horses's genome" in dressage horses.
You cannot breed for ability? Yes you can. It's why the continentals have beaten we Brits for decades and why almost none of the top horses in SJ or DR are British bred. Now they are breeding eventers too, and the current World Champion is a continental warmblood.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I thought that the Kur Totilas did was the most magnificent thing to watch - it really was beautiful.
He is not a horse that I would want to use as a stud - but his movement and exhuberance was just to die for. I suspect he'll be a very succesful stallion when he is used. However, owners will have to be very careful about the mare that they put him to - otherwise the outcome will be 'interesting'...........
But wow, what a performer!
He is not a horse that I would want to use as a stud - but his movement and exhuberance was just to die for. I suspect he'll be a very succesful stallion when he is used. However, owners will have to be very careful about the mare that they put him to - otherwise the outcome will be 'interesting'...........
But wow, what a performer!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the spanish riding school use overbred, unhealthy, deformed horses who go lame from the stress? No, they do things properly and those horses are doing higher level movements than those Grand Prix horses could dream of and they're doing it into their 30's and staying sound. And they have done for years.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they would not have a hope in hell of setting a world record in a dressage competition, they don't have the paces for it.
Iberian horses are currently being selectively bred for greater extension to allow them to compete on a world stage.
Do you think the spanish riding school use overbred, unhealthy, deformed horses who go lame from the stress? No, they do things properly and those horses are doing higher level movements than those Grand Prix horses could dream of and they're doing it into their 30's and staying sound. And they have done for years.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they would not have a hope in hell of setting a world record in a dressage competition, they don't have the paces for it.
Iberian horses are currently being selectively bred for greater extension to allow them to compete on a world stage.
Amaretto
Well-Known Member
He isn't crocked though, he's sound and competing - make the comment if he does have to retire due to the problems you mentioned.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dressage means schooling ......
Is this horse genetically engineered......
you cannot predictably breed for ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is schooling and schooling.
No, he is selectively bred. There is no "genetic engineering" as in "inserting foreign genes into the horses's genome" in dressage horses.
You cannot breed for ability? Yes you can. It's why the continentals have beaten we Brits for decades and why almost none of the top horses in SJ or DR are British bred. Now they are breeding eventers too, and the current World Champion is a continental warmblood.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course you can predictably breed for ability, otherwise none of the top event, dressage or SJ stallions and mares would be bred from. You maybe can't always guarantee it because nature is such a funny thing, but if you breed from a top performing SJ stallion and mare, chances are you might just get something with a pretty good chance of jumping decent tracks.
If you truly believe that you can't predictably breed for ability, then by the same standards, that would mean any average pony has the *potential* to produce something amazing.
[ QUOTE ]
Dressage means schooling ......
Is this horse genetically engineered......
you cannot predictably breed for ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is schooling and schooling.
No, he is selectively bred. There is no "genetic engineering" as in "inserting foreign genes into the horses's genome" in dressage horses.
You cannot breed for ability? Yes you can. It's why the continentals have beaten we Brits for decades and why almost none of the top horses in SJ or DR are British bred. Now they are breeding eventers too, and the current World Champion is a continental warmblood.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course you can predictably breed for ability, otherwise none of the top event, dressage or SJ stallions and mares would be bred from. You maybe can't always guarantee it because nature is such a funny thing, but if you breed from a top performing SJ stallion and mare, chances are you might just get something with a pretty good chance of jumping decent tracks.
If you truly believe that you can't predictably breed for ability, then by the same standards, that would mean any average pony has the *potential* to produce something amazing.
Amaretto
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
QR
I admired Totilas for the ease of transitions and his canter, but to be really honest I don't like that trot much at all, of course it is just my personal opinion, but for me it's to pronounced, exaggerated in front, it doesn't cover that much ground and is generally 'showy'. Now the canter is a different matter, the stride is beautifully round and he can do 'proper' extension, not just throw the legs around.
But hey, what do I know...
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree that the front is pronounced, but the back end is by no means inactive, in fact it is extremely so if you look at it.
QR
I admired Totilas for the ease of transitions and his canter, but to be really honest I don't like that trot much at all, of course it is just my personal opinion, but for me it's to pronounced, exaggerated in front, it doesn't cover that much ground and is generally 'showy'. Now the canter is a different matter, the stride is beautifully round and he can do 'proper' extension, not just throw the legs around.
But hey, what do I know...
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree that the front is pronounced, but the back end is by no means inactive, in fact it is extremely so if you look at it.
Araminta
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand where this suggestion of inbred dressage horses comes from? What horses are inbred? And i don't feel Totilas' paces are in any way 'manufactured' (for want of a better word!) I think they are natural.
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Not so much "in bred" as "line bred"
This causes problems too in the long term.
Dog breeders know all to well that you have to out cross every so often to strengthen the breed.
What is really scary is the amount of warmbloods I come across in my working week that are finished before they even started at 3 and 4 years old.
I wouldnt buy a warmblood now. Too many problems.
I don't understand where this suggestion of inbred dressage horses comes from? What horses are inbred? And i don't feel Totilas' paces are in any way 'manufactured' (for want of a better word!) I think they are natural.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not so much "in bred" as "line bred"
This causes problems too in the long term.
Dog breeders know all to well that you have to out cross every so often to strengthen the breed.
What is really scary is the amount of warmbloods I come across in my working week that are finished before they even started at 3 and 4 years old.
I wouldnt buy a warmblood now. Too many problems.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
He isn't crocked though, he's sound and competing - make the comment if he does have to retire due to the problems you mentioned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thankyou for your advice, but I'll make whatever comments I see fit
I never suggested he was crocked. I would like to know how many nine year olds who were bred like him have been though. It's not HIM. I LOVE him. It's the wastage rate to get a him that we should be worrying about.
He isn't crocked though, he's sound and competing - make the comment if he does have to retire due to the problems you mentioned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thankyou for your advice, but I'll make whatever comments I see fit
I never suggested he was crocked. I would like to know how many nine year olds who were bred like him have been though. It's not HIM. I LOVE him. It's the wastage rate to get a him that we should be worrying about.
somethingorother
Well-Known Member
I would worry more about tb wastage rates than warmblood. I don't think anything with his breeding would be 'waste' i think that they would be sold for less to people who have slightly less money and ability maybe but still want a well bred dressage horse.
I really doubt that his siblings or other related horses would be deformed or vastly less able than him to the point that they are 'waste' and should be shot. It's not like he was bred from something which only had 3 legs. People are forever ranting about responsible breeding- and this is it. If only the top horses go to the top riders, then there are more very good horses so to go the rest of us.
And no the SRS would not compete alongside the likes of Totilas as they are a true version of dressage. I do not agree with the trend for over exaggerated foreleg movement, but the basic principles should be the same. A lot of money goes in to breeding these animals, and therefore the longevity of soundness and ability to do the job must be seriously considered by breeders or else their money has gone down the drain. If they were breeding high moving horses but ones which were lame before they were able to get out and do the job for a good amount of time then they wouldn't be able to sell any.
Personally i think high lameness issues in high performance horses are largely due to starting too young and doing high level movements too early.
I really doubt that his siblings or other related horses would be deformed or vastly less able than him to the point that they are 'waste' and should be shot. It's not like he was bred from something which only had 3 legs. People are forever ranting about responsible breeding- and this is it. If only the top horses go to the top riders, then there are more very good horses so to go the rest of us.
And no the SRS would not compete alongside the likes of Totilas as they are a true version of dressage. I do not agree with the trend for over exaggerated foreleg movement, but the basic principles should be the same. A lot of money goes in to breeding these animals, and therefore the longevity of soundness and ability to do the job must be seriously considered by breeders or else their money has gone down the drain. If they were breeding high moving horses but ones which were lame before they were able to get out and do the job for a good amount of time then they wouldn't be able to sell any.
Personally i think high lameness issues in high performance horses are largely due to starting too young and doing high level movements too early.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Don't start me on three year old affiliated classes! An outrageous abuse designed to make money earlier for the breeders. And yes, look where that led in racing.