Training session 8

_GG_ said:
They are often the best ones :D
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Ah well, that's lucky. My work here is done. :p

FWIW, dear ether, I can see why they are ordered that way on the diagram but I can't really believe a horse can deliver on suppleness (which isn't a great translation of the german concept but it's OK as a shorthand:D), say, without having some impulsion and some straightening and some contact as well. I'm happy to dump collection for now ;) but just don't really go for over-simplification. I'm not suggesting anyone is closed to this. Only that another poster said on one of the other threads that they had elaborated on their opinion in case someone watched the video and thought that was the way to enlightenment. This is a little bit the same :p
 
For me straightness should be worked on from the beginning along with rhythm and suppleness, i think the pyramids structural levels are interchangable depending on the horse and its response to the questions asked.
 
milliepops said:
I wasn't going to continue posting on these threads because I'm finding the aggro on them pretty tiring tbh, but this point ^^ is what keeps me going. Again, for those who missed it previously, here is my disclaimer - I am not a disciple of this trainer, I don't think she is without fault, but I do think some balance is needed as she is the one riding the horse and I don't think she's completely rubbish!:)

Anyway. Here's what I thought about today for anyone who might be open to a different viewpoint.

I watched this expecting something truly horrendous. I don't think it was, and if any of us can really claim to never have had a bad day with a horse esp in the beginning of what is essentially a re-education, then good on you, Carl and Charlotte will be quaking in their boots :p

It's nice to have the sound in this video, I like to hear what she's saying to him. (and the drink-slurping!! :D)
I know when I have those days when nothing is going right I pack it in and go for a hack. It's a bit different when someone has brought their horse over to you for you to ride - can't really just 'give up' at the first sign of trouble.

I can see what she's getting at with the walk/trot and forward trot/collected trot which is resulting in the bunny hopping. She begins with trot-walk-trot transitions but each upward one he hops into canter instead of actually going forward. So it's a reasonable progression to swap to on and back in trot first, to try to avoid one little misunderstanding.

I think if I was riding and got stuck in canter at that point , I'd possibly work on the same exercise in canter for a bit first instead, but that's a point of opinion and she IS rewarding him at the moment he answers the question by allowing him on. I think I'd have *pushed* less in the bringing back - at times he comes back for a few steps and then she is a little ambitious, perhaps,asks for a bit too long and he bunny hops instead. I don't know if I would have asked for rein back either but he looks rather strong at times - it's one way to address that.I enjoyed hearing what she had to say in the walk break. And also heard her chuckle to herself a few times before that, which to me does not suggest that she was being rattled by him or getting frustrated at that point. I laugh with my horse when she is throwing her toys out of the pram -it's not unsympathetic but shows a healthy perspective on the rider's part IMO :) and keeps the mind and body relaxed.

I think my instinct after watching the trotting would have been to canter more forward first BUT I have also used travers and large working piros to encourage my horse to sit and let the energy through when she's blocking me as well, and she did have some moments when the tension eased so it wasn't necessarily *wrong*.

The walk piro-canter transitions were a bit of a mystery to me because a few times he didn't go off her leg, and when he finally did, she collected immediately. I think I'd have ridden forward at that point, but as I've said before we don't know what her thought process is. The little discussion about the right hind stepping out rather than under is probably a clue to what she was aiming for. The last one was obviously what she wanted as she allowed him on and he stretched out again.

Several times she says it's hard for him. So she is obviously appreciating what is being asked of the horse and isn't blind to his weak points.

Anyway. Fire away everyone ;)
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The rein back is to release tension in his back. I still think at this level with this horse she is right to go for collection without tension. How much jumping does this horse do?
 
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The riders comments on this session. All future videos will have the riders feed back at the end. In answer to how much jumping does he do. He has not jumped in 2.5 months and prior to that jumping once a week at low level.
I feel that the rider has identified the problems and is starting to have a good understanding of Armas.
[video=youtube_share;NF-ex5hKmgE]http://youtu.be/NF-ex5hKmgE[/video]
 
Thanks for this, J, very nice to hear her perspective on it :) the poor woman, does she know what goes on here after each session ?!:eek:
 
'S'teamed said:
Session 8?

Christ, Sessions 1 - 7 must have been ***** if this is an improvement
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Ah...a lovely constructive post :-)

There are many people in this world who think horses are ready made, who have no idea the work involved and the many many different methods of getting horses to the same points.

These threads are opening the doors to many very interesting and enlightening comments. I for one have learned a great deal from other posters, so that alone makes these posts worth it for me.

As for the horse...sometimes things get worse before they get better...no such thing as a set back, just the overcoming of challenges on a very long journey.

This is a very long journey. It will have ups and downs and things we may no agree with but it is a worthy journey if it helps this horse and helps some of us that are open to learning new things.
 
All of which is very true, EXCEPT that the horse isn't exactly a blank canvas and was going brilliantly very recently with a previous trainer. It's the rider who is at fault here I'm afraid, she just isn't the right one for this horse.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Agreed Dorian! Too hard to grasp though.

Terri
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;) I'll tell you what Terri, if I had time to spare (and a few grand, lol) I'd love to go and learn from this guy. Everything he says makes sense and the science backs it up. But you have to be so open to changing your views based on what is in front of you. I am seriously considering doing the IHTC course though.
 
I'm sorry, I could not allow my horse to be ridden like that - very unforgiving rider who is trying to force results rather than work with him.

What a shame you are set on continuing with this trainer when she is clearly not communicating with him in a way that he understands.

Also agree with the earlier comment re his recent choke episode.

Poor horse has lost all his presence and looks thoroughly miserable in his work :(
 
Cortez said:
All of which is very true, EXCEPT that the horse isn't exactly a blank canvas and was going brilliantly very recently with a previous trainer. It's the rider who is at fault here I'm afraid, she just isn't the right one for this horse.
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I think that is what stands out to me.

Op are you unhappy with the outcome of BB's training?
 
I had the same thought. If I had a horse going well under Trainer A and then some months later, Trainer B came along and had to start from scratch, I'd be wondering if they were the right trainer.

In this case, I think Armas' current trainer is firmly in the realm of modern dressage whereas David was of the Spanish-classical-bullfighting school. No wonder the horse is confused.
 
Armas, I think the point they might be trying to make is that if BB got Armas to where he was...why is he now where he is? He has gone backwards and the rider isn't have the same effect as BB, so why not look for someone who works like BB, rides more like BB and gets better results?

But I understand that you are giving her time. I just didn't want you to misunderstand that most aren't saying BB must come back, but that you should find someone more like BB than your current rider.

Forgive me if I have misrepresented anyone!
 
Caol Ila said:
I had the same thought. If I had a horse going well under Trainer A and then some months later, Trainer B came along and had to start from scratch, I'd be wondering if they were the right trainer.

In this case, I think Armas' current trainer is firmly in the realm of modern dressage whereas David was of the Spanish-classical-bullfighting school. No wonder the horse is confused.
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Actually David is a competition dressage rider as well !
 
Has anyone else watched today's video? If not, it might put this one into some perspective.

A change of approach isn't always a bad thing. I've been riding my horse for 10 years and each instructor I've had has changed something about what we've been doing. Sometimes quite significantly, and we've gone right back to basics and reconstructed in a different way. There's always an uncomfortable week or so while we are both getting it together, and then it begins to gel and we start to make progress again.

Seems to me that's what the new rider has done too. BB did make a lot of progress with the horse.:) He is gone now, things have moved on... new rider has gone backwards a little to address some of the things that weren't really *solid* yet with BB and is now moving on again, going by today's video :)

Regardless of whether you think she's on the right lines or not, changing the focus isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm also not sure what you are describing as modern or classical - classical how? It's interpreted in so many different ways :) Who would you describe as a classical rider?
 
Nuno Oliviera; Phillipe Karl; SOME aspects of Carl Hester; Paulo Santos; Rodrigo Bentos; everyone at the Royal School of Equestrian Art in Jerez; most riders in the Spanish and Portuguese tradition; hardly anyone this side of the alps; ?
 
Cortez said:
SOME aspects of Carl Hester;
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Thanks that's interesting. Just out of curiosity, which aspects of CH specifically? I only ask because I've seen a lot of Carl's training over the years and find it particularly aspirational! :p
 
He has his horses particularly sharp off the leg and doesn't hang on to their heads; i.e. rides off the leg and seat, puts the horses over their hocks and doesn't fuss with the front end. If you're ever lucky enough to sit on one that he's trained they are ALL go and JUST DO IT. Also why he likes sharp horses I would imagine. He's one of the best trainers in the world, IMO (and I've known a few).

BUT, he does make them really work.
 
OK, perhaps I should have asked which aspects you didn't like ;) I would agree with everything you've said above. Though I do think they are also really seeking forward into the contact. Not fussing, agreed, but he expects to be able to put them in the frame he wants at any time.

Same true of Charlotte (no surprise!)
 
Cortez said:
He has his horses particularly sharp off the leg and doesn't hang on to their heads; i.e. rides off the leg and seat, puts the horses over their hocks and doesn't fuss with the front end. If you're ever lucky enough to sit on one that he's trained they are ALL go and JUST DO IT. Also why he likes sharp horses I would imagine. He's one of the best trainers in the world, IMO (and I've known a few).

BUT, he does make them really work.
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I agree with you Cortez and the parts I've highlighted are the things I absolutely abhor about this girl 'rider'. I'm sorry I can't class her as a 'trainer'. If I trained all the horses who come here in a similarly boring and uninspiring, lacking in imagination, manner as she does I very much doubt I'd keep clients for long and the horses 60 days later would be zombies. Great if you want a robot or a zombie, I like the horses I train to still retain their character under saddle and enjoy what we do, while learning along the way. Clearly there are more than one type of trainers on these threads and if this type of training is acceptable to some then so be it, absolutely not my way though.
 
Spring Feather said:
I agree with you Cortez and the parts I've highlighted are the things I absolutely abhor about this girl 'rider'. I'm sorry I can't class her as a 'trainer'. If I trained all the horses who come here in a similarly boring and uninspiring, lacking in imagination, manner as she does I very much doubt I'd keep clients for long and the horses 60 days later would be zombies. Great if you want a robot or a zombie, I like the horses I train to still retain their character under saddle and enjoy what we do, while learning along the way. Clearly there are more than one type of trainers on these threads and if this type of training is acceptable to some then so be it, absolutely not my way though.
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I do tend to agree with you - and when this lady does show any personality she does seem to come into conflict with the horse (that's one of the things that stands out when watching the series of videos). And as a horse that appears to be relatively hot and sharp he should be a relatively easy horse to work with (putting aside the contact issues).
 
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