Training session 8

[_GG_]

All of which is very true, EXCEPT that the horse isn't exactly a blank canvas and was going brilliantly very recently with a previous trainer. It's the rider who is at fault here I'm afraid, she just isn't the right one for this horse.

Oh I agree with this...just making some general points.

This trainer frustrates me in the sense that I some good, then some bad. Some nice work then some work that makes me want to throttle her.

New video much better in general, but I don't feel enough confidence in her yet to think this means we won't see more stuff we don't like.

I just want to ride him and help him enjoy it all x

 

[_GG_]

He has his horses particularly sharp off the leg and doesn't hang on to their heads; i.e. rides off the leg and seat, puts the horses over their hocks and doesn't fuss with the front end. If you're ever lucky enough to sit on one that he's trained they are ALL go and JUST DO IT. Also why he likes sharp horses I would imagine. He's one of the best trainers in the world, IMO (and I've known a few).

BUT, he does make them really work.

The lady that has ridden Fly for me while I have been unable after the fall commented on how off the leg she is and that trying to pull her back doesn't work...the control comes from your core, not your hand. Took two years with Fly. She said, " that's what it's like riding and of CH's horses...you just can't fall back on your hand. They have a job, they know it well and they want to get on and do it. She's ridden for him a few times now and it's one of the main reasons I have let someone else school Fly. I wasn't going to put two years of training in only for a heavy handed rider to ruin it all.

 

[DabDab]

The lady that has ridden Fly for me while I have been unable after the fall commented on how off the leg she is and that trying to pull her back doesn't work...the control comes from your core, not your hand. Took two years with Fly. She said, " that's what it's like riding and of CH's horses...you just can't fall back on your hand. They have a job, they know it well and they want to get on and do it. She's ridden for him a few times now and it's one of the main reasons I have let someone else school Fly. I wasn't going to put two years of training in only for a heavy handed rider to ruin it all.

Is fly the one who went over or another?

 

[_GG_]

Is fly the one who went over or another?

No, it was the baby Molly that went over. Bless her. She got scared by a noise and bitten on the bum by another horse hard enough that she had a 2 inch open cut on her bum so don't think she knew what to do. I took her in the school this morning to do gorundwork and she was as wonderful as she always has been. Can't wait to get back on her.

Fly is an ex racer....she hurdled for 5 years and then got chucked on 20 acres with no company while racing fit and started going a bit mad, so I took her on.

 

[DabDab]

No, it was the baby Molly that went over. Bless her. She got scared by a noise and bitten on the bum by another horse hard enough that she had a 2 inch open cut on her bum so don't think she knew what to do. I took her in the school this morning to do gorundwork and she was as wonderful as she always has been. Can't wait to get back on her.

Fly is an ex racer....she hurdled for 5 years and then got chucked on 20 acres with no company while racing fit and started going a bit mad, so I took her on.

Ah yes - I remember reading the thread but couldn't remember the name. Glad to hear the little lady is back on her feet.

*OK, hijack over *

 

[_GG_]

Ah yes - I remember reading the thread but couldn't remember the name. Glad to hear the little lady is back on her feet.

*OK, hijack over *

Thank you. i need to post some update pics up...she's changed quite a bit from the fluff monster I bought back in Feb. Her colour is like dark spun gold in the sun. Never seen shine like it.

 

[mandwhy]

Competition/modern - not the same thing!

You can compete and have a classical core approach or compete and have a 'modern' *shudder* approach.

Definitely agree, I thought he got on much better with the other trainer, I am sure you will be able to find a classical trainer in france

I normally like Armas videos but having not seen any for a while I found this one quite depressing, he looks restrained and tense. I just wanted her to trot him round the school freely for a break after the gruelling repetition, he seemed so frustrated. I also agree with the comments that he is struggling with his hind. Let me tell you I am rubbish at spotting that kind of thing, so If I can see it...

Still, onwards and upwards fair play to the trainer for doing the comments after too.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Armas, I think the point they might be trying to make is that if BB got Armas to where he was...why is he now where he is? He has gone backwards and the rider isn't have the same effect as BB, so why not look for someone who works like BB, rides more like BB and gets better results?

But I understand that you are giving her time. I just didn't want you to misunderstand that most aren't saying BB must come back, but that you should find someone more like BB than your current rider.

Forgive me if I have misrepresented anyone!

Yes that is exactly my point. Whether or not this trainer gets the desired results, all of BB's work has really been a waste of time, because it hasn't been continued on with a similar type of trainer.

 

[Armas]

If I could have found a local trainer the same as BB that would have been fantastic. Please don't think I have not tried. Both trainers that I short listed are 1hr.15 drive away from home. There are a ton of schools that are closer but not up to par.
I certainly don't consider the work we started at the beginning of the year a waste far from it. At the moment my goals are different we are working on getting full engagement once that is achieved we can move forward.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

having bitten my tongue for so long..... i think its 100% apparent from these threads, which posters have backed, schooled, and re schooled a variety of quirky horses, and ridden to a decent level..............................and which are the idealistic, training is all lightness and joy types who do a prelim every 6 months, get awful marks and blame it on the judge not recognising classical training.

ridiculous.

its a horse, with a job to do, and every minute of every session is not going to be perfect.

i love the horse, really like the rider and think if she HAS read this thread she is probably laughing at the ignorance of many posting on it.

 

[Cortez]

But Armas, you had engagement (when David was training him), now the horse's hind end is away with the fairies (sorry, Irishism there), he's sucked back behind the leg/contact and when he tries to answer the rider he's running along like a clockwork toy. Can you not take him to the other gentleman?

 

[Armas]

having bitten my tongue for so long..... i think its 100% apparent from these threads, which posters have backed, schooled, and re schooled a variety of quirky horses, and ridden to a decent level..............................and which are the idealistic, training is all lightness and joy types who do a prelim every 6 months, get awful marks and blame it on the judge not recognising classical training.

ridiculous.

its a horse, with a job to do, and every minute of every session is not going to be perfect.

i love the horse, really like the rider and think if she HAS read this thread she is probably laughing at the ignorance of many posting on it.

Bold and brave I admire that !

But Armas, you had engagement (when David was training him), now the horse's hind end is away with the fairies (sorry, Irishism there), he's sucked back behind the leg/contact and when he tries to answer the rider he's running along like a clockwork toy. Can you not take him to the other gentleman?

He was not going as well as he should have been when David was here we just could not put our finger on it. Hence the reason David and I went to the vets and they diagnosed the SI issue and dealt with it.
He has always had a weaker backend and perhaps my phrasing of the issue was not correct.
I am not sure about the clockwork toy ! However as I have said I want to give the rider the opportunity to progress before pulling the rug. I am going to revisit the issue at the end of the month and judge performance then.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

You know I never comment on your threads Armas

But I have to say this, I would NOT let this lady ride either of my PRE horses, no way at all.

She does not have the right approach for a spanish horse whatsoever. A lot of riders do not, they are different for reasons you know.

As you well know my Hermoso is VERY much like Armas (and they're related remember!) and Hermoso would react in the same way with this rider......well in fact he would ditch her! he is not as forgiving as Armas in my opinion.....you always say he is having a tantrum but in my opinion I think your horse is one of the most forgiving PRE's I have known. He puts up with SO many different riders you put on him.

The approach she uses may well work for warmbloods - but they are a different type.

I would use noone rather than use this person. He is not a happy boy and it is sad you can not see that.

BB was better - although I did not agree with him teaching him things before he could even work consistantly in each pace....however he was better on him for sure.......Spanish rider.

 

[Caol Ila]

I wrote a wee response an hour or two ago but cyberspace (new forum?) seems to have eaten it!

James, even in video 10, the horse's gaits are flat as a pancake and he's on his forehand.

What do you mean by "full engagement?'' "Full" (as opposed to what?) engagement isn't really a standard term in dressage lingo, at least as far as I know, so I'm just wondering what you have in mind when you say that. And I know what I mean when I use the word "engagement" when describing the way a horse goes, but I'm just curious as to how you understand that term.

 

[little_flea]

having bitten my tongue for so long..... i think its 100% apparent from these threads, which posters have backed, schooled, and re schooled a variety of quirky horses, and ridden to a decent level..............................and which are the idealistic, training is all lightness and joy types who do a prelim every 6 months, get awful marks and blame it on the judge not recognising classical training.

ridiculous.

its a horse, with a job to do, and every minute of every session is not going to be perfect.

i love the horse, really like the rider and think if she HAS read this thread she is probably laughing at the ignorance of many posting on it.

I absolutely agree. I have followed these threads with great interest, and whilst there has been some very good comments and opinions (GG has been wonderfully enlightening and helpful), it also makes me think that anyone who puts themselves/their horse up for critique on this forum is a masochist - hats off to the bravery of Armas for posting this (obviously NOT riding hats off though - dear lord who would do such a thing) - I definitely wouldn't. Pretty sure most of this brigade would think my horse is lame on at least 3 legs, saddle doesn't fit, I should ride in a headcollar, the poor thing is unhappy for having to work every day, probably overbent, my hands too harsh. Oh and have I x-rayed for kissing spines?

 

[Caol Ila]

I absolutely agree. I have followed these threads with great interest, and whilst there has been some very good comments and opinions (GG has been wonderfully enlightening and helpful), it also makes me think that anyone who puts themselves/their horse up for critique on this forum is a masochist - hats off to the bravery of Armas for posting this (obviously NOT riding hats off though - dear lord who would do such a thing) - I definitely wouldn't. Pretty sure most of this brigade would think my horse is lame on at least 3 legs, saddle doesn't fit, I should ride in a headcollar, the poor thing is unhappy for having to work every day, probably overbent, my hands too harsh. Oh and have I x-rayed for kissing spines?

Dunno... I once posted a video of me schooling (badly... I only ever manage to get people to film our warm up) and didn't get that many responses. "Cute horse." "Your leg could be more stable." I must be very boring. No great row emerged from that posting.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Three little words ... Jean Luc Cornille

Yes now there is a brilliant trainer indeed. I wish I had the talent he has in his in his little finger. He does amazing inhand work and I believe that should be the foundation of all ridden work.

 

[cundlegreen]

Ok, I have watched the video. Now I have not had a negative comment on any of the threads, however, I will day one thing, until the horse is sound on his right hind she is on a hiding to nothing trying to get him to push from behind and take a true contact. I really believe that your horse is not right behind and that is causing the lack of connection and tension.
I have watched the videos several time and the un level ness is most obvious in this last video.
Sorry.

Thank goodness, somebody else who thinks the same as me! IMO, this horse may well have a problem with his hocks. I'm happy to be corrected if james has had diagnostics done on Armas, but, as my mare has had several comments from dressage judges about her way of going (she is only 7), I went to the vet and had a whole series of Xrays (ouch!) done to find out the problem. She has bone spurs on the front of both hocks, and has been compensating for two years, showing itself as very stuffy and not engaging behind. I know that Armas is showing tension in a different way, but so often I believe what we think is "tantrums" is their way of trying to show us that something is wrong. Please James, do a process of elimination, and save the money put into training, and get your horse checked out properly. If all xrays /scans are A OK, then you will have a better idea of how to proceed with his training.

 

[DabDab]

I absolutely agree. I have followed these threads with great interest, and whilst there has been some very good comments and opinions (GG has been wonderfully enlightening and helpful), it also makes me think that anyone who puts themselves/their horse up for critique on this forum is a masochist - hats off to the bravery of Armas for posting this (obviously NOT riding hats off though - dear lord who would do such a thing) - I definitely wouldn't. Pretty sure most of this brigade would think my horse is lame on at least 3 legs, saddle doesn't fit, I should ride in a headcollar, the poor thing is unhappy for having to work every day, probably overbent, my hands too harsh. Oh and have I x-rayed for kissing spines?

You evil, terrible person

But as you read these threads, spare a thought for me - as we have established from these threads Iberians are completely different to warmbloods, so as you can imagine, with my PRE X Warmblood I've had to develop a split personality just to get him to walk in a straight line

Now obviously I'm being flippant, and I don't admire everything this rider does and am unsure about her general approach to this particular horse, but I think it is extremely unfair to suggest that she only has experience of riding a particular type of horse. Most professional riders don't have the luxury of choosing to ride the same type of horse every time, and they have to ride what they're given otherwise they wouldn't have a job. It is not known what experience this rider has, or whether or not she had ridden Iberians before, and while people may broadly disagree with her approach, it is far too early to comment on the results of her training with this horse.

 

[little_flea]

You evil, terrible person

But as you read these threads, spare a thought for me - as we have established from these threads Iberians are completely different to warmbloods, so as you can imagine, with my PRE X Warmblood I've had to develop a split personality just to get him to walk in a straight line

Now obviously I'm being flippant, and I don't admire everything this rider does and am unsure about her general approach to this particular horse, but I think it is extremely unfair to suggest that she only has experience of riding a particular type of horse. Most professional riders don't have the luxury of choosing to ride the same type of horse every time, and they have to ride what they're given otherwise they wouldn't have a job. It is not known what experience this rider has, or whether or not she had ridden Iberians before, and while people may broadly disagree with her approach, it is far too early to comment on the results of her training with this horse.

How DO you deal with this - do you have a different trainer for the front end and one for the back? Or do you use a classical approach on the right side and an evil modern one on the left?

I completely agree with everything you just said about the trainer. And as someone else brilliantly said on these threads - you could go clear around Badminton and still get slated on this forum.

 

[_GG_]

Dunno... I once posted a video of me schooling (badly... I only ever manage to get people to film our warm up) and didn't get that many responses. "Cute horse." "Your leg could be more stable." I must be very boring. No great row emerged from that posting.

Ha....i have that problem too. I ask for the whole session to be filmed and end up with about 30 short clips from warm up lol.

It used to really bug me but actually, it shows the processes and that it doesn't all look wonderful all of the time, but it is what you go through to get to where you want to be and also shows that you don't have to use force or hard riding.

Yes now there is a brilliant trainer indeed. I wish I had the talent he has in his in his little finger. He does amazing inhand work and I believe that should be the foundation of all ridden work.

Agree 100% with groundwork. Without it we are blind when we start ridden work with a young horse.

I don't expect a horse to be able to understand sentences when I start ridden work, but I won't do it unless they first understand the basic alphabet.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Thank goodness, somebody else who thinks the same as me! IMO, this horse may well have a problem with his hocks. I'm happy to be corrected if james has had diagnostics done on Armas, but, as my mare has had several comments from dressage judges about her way of going (she is only 7), I went to the vet and had a whole series of Xrays (ouch!) done to find out the problem. She has bone spurs on the front of both hocks, and has been compensating for two years, showing itself as very stuffy and not engaging behind. I know that Armas is showing tension in a different way, but so often I believe what we think is "tantrums" is their way of trying to show us that something is wrong. Please James, do a process of elimination, and save the money put into training, and get your horse checked out properly. If all xrays /scans are A OK, then you will have a better idea of how to proceed with his training.

I said this on the long reining video. He is clearly not quite right behind imo. I have a horse with chronic SI dysfunction so I can see it as clear as day to me.

 

[milliepops]

How DO you deal with this - do you have a different trainer for the front end and one for the back? Or do you use a classical approach on the right side and an evil modern one on the left?

^^ Brilliant! !

 

[Armas]

I wrote a wee response an hour or two ago but cyberspace (new forum?) seems to have eaten it!

James, even in video 10, the horse's gaits are flat as a pancake and he's on his forehand.

What do you mean by "full engagement?'' "Full" (as opposed to what?) engagement isn't really a standard term in dressage lingo, at least as far as I know, so I'm just wondering what you have in mind when you say that. And I know what I mean when I use the word "engagement" when describing the way a horse goes, but I'm just curious as to how you understand that term.

May be just a term I use but he is not pushing through from his hind.

I absolutely agree. I have followed these threads with great interest, and whilst there has been some very good comments and opinions (GG has been wonderfully enlightening and helpful), it also makes me think that anyone who puts themselves/their horse up for critique on this forum is a masochist - hats off to the bravery of Armas for posting this (obviously NOT riding hats off though - dear lord who would do such a thing) - I definitely wouldn't. Pretty sure most of this brigade would think my horse is lame on at least 3 legs, saddle doesn't fit, I should ride in a headcollar, the poor thing is unhappy for having to work every day, probably overbent, my hands too harsh. Oh and have I x-rayed for kissing spines?

That did make me laugh

Thank goodness, somebody else who thinks the same as me! IMO, this horse may well have a problem with his hocks. I'm happy to be corrected if james has had diagnostics done on Armas, but, as my mare has had several comments from dressage judges about her way of going (she is only 7), I went to the vet and had a whole series of Xrays (ouch!) done to find out the problem. She has bone spurs on the front of both hocks, and has been compensating for two years, showing itself as very stuffy and not engaging behind. I know that Armas is showing tension in a different way, but so often I believe what we think is "tantrums" is their way of trying to show us that something is wrong. Please James, do a process of elimination, and save the money put into training, and get your horse checked out properly. If all xrays /scans are A OK, then you will have a better idea of how to proceed with his training.

The past issue was related to a problem with the SI which was dealt with in February by way of two cortisone injections. His hocks have no issue according to the vet nor does his spine.
He just needs to strengthen his back muscles.

 

[YasandCrystal]

The past issue was related to a problem with the SI which was dealt with in February by way of two cortisone injections. His hocks have no issue according to the vet nor does his spine.
He just needs to strengthen his back muscles.

OP - the injections are not failsafe. They help in some cases. My horse was injected and they didn't make a jot of difference to him. I used an osteopath to manipulate my horse's sacrum and then a physio for weeks with masses of inhand exercises in between. My horse was really bad, but Armas does look lame behind and that cannot surely be down to lack of muscle ? Does you vet say he is 100% sound behind?

 

[ester]

Injections also often need repeating every 6-18 months or so.

Also those saying that posters here would find their horse had 3 legs, people know that J is quite new to riding/horses and that Armas has had issues previously, I suspect that is why they are watching his movement quite so closely.

 

[DabDab]

Injections also often need repeating every 6-18 months or so.

Also those saying that posters here would find their horse had 3 legs, people know that J is quite new to riding/horses and that Armas has had issues previously, I suspect that is why they are watching his movement quite so closely.

I don't think that was Little Flea's point really - I think she was just being lighthearted. Numerous posters have commented on the periodic awkwardness in Armas' back end and some have offered really helpful advice that J appeared to be grateful for - nobody has offered the advice that YasandCrystal has so maybe J will look into this.

 

[DabDab]

How DO you deal with this - do you have a different trainer for the front end and one for the back? Or do you use a classical approach on the right side and an evil modern one on the left?

Oh it's as complicated as that and more - I consider myself a riding GOD for just accomplishing getting on his back

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

having bitten my tongue for so long..... i think its 100% apparent from these threads, which posters have backed, schooled, and re schooled a variety of quirky horses, and ridden to a decent level..............................and which are the idealistic, training is all lightness and joy types who do a prelim every 6 months, get awful marks and blame it on the judge not recognising classical training.

ridiculous.

its a horse, with a job to do, and every minute of every session is not going to be perfect.

i love the horse, really like the rider and think if she HAS read this thread she is probably laughing at the ignorance of many posting on it.

PMSL!!

 

[Fellewell]

No self-respecting trainer would ride an unsound horse, much less on camera.
The horse is weak behind and this is being addressed by the OP and his vets.
I suspect Armas was sold as a first/leisure horse and for this he was fit for purpose, if he'd shown any promise as a vaquera horse he perhaps would not have been sold to the OP.
I don't get this obsession with Spanish trainers that's like saying an ID should only be trained by an Irishman or a Highland by someone from Auchtermuchty!
I will however concede that Welsh ponies should only be ridden by the Welsh