Trot Diagonals

[Cortez]

There isn't really a "right" or a "wrong" diagonal, just what convention dictates, as some have already said the opposite applies in other countries. As long as you change when going from one direction to another your horse will not be at a physical disadvantage. In nearly 40 years of teaching I have hardly ever commented on diagonals, but some instructors are really keen on them I mostly sit these days, but when rising do use the "english" method of sitting when the outside shoulder is down; consistency is the plan.

 

[ycbm]

There isn't really a "right" or a "wrong" diagonal, just what convention dictates, as some have already said the opposite applies in other countries. As long as you change when going from one direction to another your horse will not be at a physical disadvantage. In nearly 40 years of teaching I have hardly ever commented on diagonals, but some instructors are really keen on them I mostly sit these days, but when rising do use the "english" method of sitting when the outside shoulder is down; consistency is the plan.

Biomechanics research is unequivocal on this point now Cortez. The stride length is longer if you sit when the outside shoulder comes back, the 'English' way.

 

[tristar]

i always sit on the outside d, i believe the horse finds its balance better, as the inward curvation restricts the horse enough, and the outside d is working harder, travelling further so sitting and asking on the outside d can make the horse power forwards for me, it also frees the inside hind leg to step under more.

 

[Llewellyn]

I hate rising trot and have to look for diagonals so three possible solutions all of which I employ.
A) never again be in a scenario where diagonals matter. Hacking, cross country or in a school when no ones watching are now the only options!
B) ride side-saddle whenever possible.
C) do all schooling at sitting trot without stirrups.

Or I don't think western riding has any rising. :-D

 

[Tnavas]

If you trotting on a circle and look down at the outside shoulder you sit when it moves back towards you. Once you get used to this you will probably learn the feel of which diagonal you are on.

This is the easiest way to learn your diagonals - If you can have someone on the ground to help try this exercise, Go into rising trot and the person on the ground tell you Correct or Incorrect, whatever they say study the outside shoulder and see what it is doing in relation to you sitting or rising. Then go into sitting trot and repeat the exercise. After a while repeat the exercise and instead you tell the person on the ground if you are Correct or Incorrect - I've been teaching this exercise for many decades and find its the easiest and best way to learn.

 

[Tnavas]

If I have clients who struggle with knowing diagonals without looking, I get them to change on to the wrong one and ride a ten meter circle. They start being able to feel it then.

Rising trot on a 10m circle!!!! Should be sitting only

 

[Tnavas]

Another comment about it. It doesn't really matter if you are on the "wrong" one, as long as you are not always on the same one. That is far more important in terms of helping your horse to be sound and equal.

It matters when you are schooling as you need to be able to influence the inside hind leg on a circle - sitting as the outside shoulder is coming back is when the inside hind leg is coming to the ground - you then use your leg and encourage that inside hind leg to take a bigger, better step.

 

[blitznbobs]

Rising trot on a 10m circle!!!! Should be sitting only

Why?

 

[FfionWinnie]

It matters when you are schooling as you need to be able to influence the inside hind leg on a circle - sitting as the outside shoulder is coming back is when the inside hind leg is coming to the ground - you then use your leg and encourage that inside hind leg to take a bigger, better step.

No it doesn't matter to be point the op should be upset about it and as already pointed out in some countries it's the opposite way around and what about sitting trot then you are sitting when both hinds are on the ground so your explaination makes no sense.

 

[ycbm]

No it doesn't matter to be point the op should be upset about it and as already pointed out in some countries it's the opposite way around and what about sitting trot then you are sitting when both hinds are on the ground so your explaination makes no sense.

I agree about the OP not being upset, but I think you'll find the other countries changing now that we have clear data that the continental way shortens the stride length. Your point about sitting trot is interesting. I think that's exactly why we don't sit until the horse is more developed, and why less proficient/flexible riders, like me, do shorten the trot when they sit. Also, I think the weight returning to the saddle probably has a lot to do with it, whereas the balance is constant in sitting.

 

[scats]

Rising trot on a 10m circle!!!! Should be sitting only

Can I ask why you think that? In 30 years in the saddle and as BHS qualified instructor, I certainly see no problem with rising trot on a 10m circle and I can think of several scenarios where sitting trot on such a circle could massively restrict the animal. But each to their own.

I am with ybcm on this, as someone hugely into biomechanics, my riding and teaching massively influenced by this. The stride length is affected when the inside hind cannot step under as effectively.

 

[Tnavas]

No it doesn't matter to be point the op should be upset about it and as already pointed out in some countries it's the opposite way around and what about sitting trot then you are sitting when both hinds are on the ground so your explaination makes no sense.

When you are working in an arena its your inside leg increasing the power/impulsion not both - you don't nag with every stride but when the inside leg is ready to leave the ground.

 

[scats]

Actually I've just had a flashback! In the 80s, I remember a very militant instructor at the riding school telling us to sit on circles less then 15m, but they left and it was never mentioned again.

 

[Tnavas]

Why?

Because the horse has to work hard to maintain everything correctly and you are needed to assist with the impulsion - and also the 10m circle is always ridden in sitting trot in dressage tests

 

[Cortez]

I don't think there are (or should be) any hard and fast rules on this: sometimes you need to sit, sometimes it is more helpful to rise, and soemtimes it is an advantage to ride on the "wrong" diagonal (when training horses which struggle with canter leads, for instance). Sometimes it is helpful to even rise in the more collected movements such as shoulder-in or half pass, it all depends on what the horse needs at that moment in time. Focusing on small details can sometimes obscure bigger, more important difficulties. It is easy to comment on a rider's diagonals, less easy to correct poor position or feel, perhaps?

 

[ycbm]

Because the horse has to work hard to maintain everything correctly and you are needed to assist with the impulsion - and also the 10m circle is always ridden in sitting trot in dressage tests

But the ten metre half and ten metre half with ten metre half the other way (with a change of bend to complicate the balance), is not.

And the ten metre circle is only done when the entire test (excepting possibly medium and extended trot), is required to be sitting to demonstrate the acceptance of the rider by the horse's back.

Your argument makes little sense to me, I'm afraid.

 

[Tnavas]

Can I ask why you think that? In 30 years in the saddle and as BHS qualified instructor, I certainly see no problem with rising trot on a 10m circle and I can think of several scenarios where sitting trot on such a circle could massively restrict the animal. But each to their own.

I am with ybcm on this, as someone hugely into biomechanics, my riding and teaching massively influenced by this. The stride length is affected when the inside hind cannot step under as effectively.

You must have missed the lesson on riding 10 m circles then! I too am a qualified and experienced instructor of 50yrs, trained in a classical dressage yard also with Pat Smallwood and worked for Jennie Lorriston Clarke both of who would have killed if you had been caught riding a 10m in rising trot. Its the beginning of more advanced work, the horse needs a reasonable degree of collection, its used as the build up for shoulder in - it is done in sitting trot.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think there are (or should be) any hard and fast rules on this: sometimes you need to sit, sometimes it is more helpful to rise, and soemtimes it is an advantage to ride on the "wrong" diagonal (when training horses which struggle with canter leads, for instance). Sometimes it is helpful to even rise in the more collected movements such as shoulder-in or half pass, it all depends on what the horse needs at that moment in time. Focusing on small details can sometimes obscure bigger, more important difficulties. It is easy to comment on a rider's diagonals, less easy to correct poor position or feel, perhaps?

Amen to this

 

[Cortez]

You must have missed the lesson on riding 10 m circles then! I too am a qualified and experienced instructor of 50yrs, trained in a classical dressage yard also with Pat Smallwood and worked for Jennie Lorriston Clarke both of who would have killed if you had been caught riding a 10m in sitting trot. Its the beginning of more advanced work, the horse needs a reasonable degree of collection, its used as the build up for shoulder in - it is done in sitting trot.

Not always - see my post above ^^^ Rigid rules don't always work in real life 'though, do they?

 

[Tnavas]

But the ten metre half and ten metre half with ten metre half the other way (with a change of bend to complicate the balance), is not.

And the ten metre circle is only done when the entire test (excepting possibly medium and extended trot), is required to be sitting to demonstrate the acceptance of the rider by the horse's back.

Your argument makes little sense to me, I'm afraid.

Hmm! Not so sure there - unfortunately I no longer have UK tests but I believe that rising trot is gone towards the end of the Novice tests. Certainly gone for Elementary tests.

 

[ycbm]

You must have missed the lesson on riding 10 m circles then! I too am a qualified and experienced instructor of 50yrs, trained in a classical dressage yard also with Pat Smallwood and worked for Jennie Lorriston Clarke both of who would have killed if you had been caught riding a 10m in sitting trot. Its the beginning of more advanced work, the horse needs a reasonable degree of collection, its used as the build up for shoulder in - it is done in sitting trot.

I think maybe you're out of date? You learned in the days when the UK didn't have a hope in hell of winning an Olympic title, I guess.

I think you've also missed the word 'not' and changed the while sense of what you are saying. But if we follow that argument, you are saying that no horse should be trotting a ten metre circle until it is capable of carrying the rider in assuring grit. Which to me, is plainly ridiculous.

 

[Cortez]

I believe (please correct me if wrong) that you are now allowed the discretion to rise for some of the lower level tests (novice - elementary?)?

PS: what is assuring grit?

 

[ycbm]

Hmm! Not so sure there - unfortunately I no longer have UK tests but I believe that rising trot is gone towards the end of the Novice tests. Certainly gone for Elementary tests.

Sitting trot is not required at elementary, unless my eyes are deceiving me in a YouTube video of E44 posted yesterday!

 

[Tnavas]

I don't think there are (or should be) any hard and fast rules on this: sometimes you need to sit, sometimes it is more helpful to rise, and soemtimes it is an advantage to ride on the "wrong" diagonal (when training horses which struggle with canter leads, for instance). Sometimes it is helpful to even rise in the more collected movements such as shoulder-in or half pass, it all depends on what the horse needs at that moment in time. Focusing on small details can sometimes obscure bigger, more important difficulties. It is easy to comment on a rider's diagonals, less easy to correct poor position or feel, perhaps?

If you are needing to rise in more collected movements then the horse is not yet ready to be working them, it is not supple enough or strong enough in the back - go back a step and develop the strength first.

I am a very classical dressage person who spends time getting the horse to the different levels - too many horses these days are asked to work too advanced before they are physically strong enough. The horse MUST be supple laterally from circles and longitudinal from transitions before it is asked to perform more advanced work.

 

[Tnavas]

I think maybe you're out of date? You learned in the days when the UK didn't have a hope in hell of winning an Olympic title, I guess.

I think you've also missed the word 'not' and changed the while sense of what you are saying. But if we follow that argument, you are saying that no horse should be trotting a ten metre circle until it is capable of carrying the rider in assuring grit. Which to me, is plainly ridiculous.

There is no need to be rude - Classical dressage has been classical for many centuries - yes I was trained in the early days of UK dressage but by people that trained at the Spanish Riding School, represented Uk in dressage, judged at international level and was the selector for the UK Junior dressage team. I've had riders ride for their country and pass PC A with Honours, produced horses on the Olympic SJ short list so I must be doing something right!

 

[milliepops]

Sitting trot is not required at elementary, unless my eyes are deceiving me in a YouTube video of E44 posted yesterday!

Indeed and you're even allowed to rise for the medium and extended trot at Medium these days! :eek3::tongue3:

 

[ycbm]

I was not being rude!

I don't care where or when you trained. There are a lot odd people currently riding and training who do not agree with you that a horse is not ready to trot a ten metre circle until it has a strong enough back to carry you sitting.

 

[Cortez]

As I commented above, I rarely use rising trot these days (my horses are all well established old campaigners), but I also don't like all these hard-and-fast "rules" that say you can't do this until you've done this - this is why people are afraid to ever advance and get stuck at Novice, Elem, or whatever. There is no magical, logical progression that means that your horse will automatically march through the levels, if the horse needs some help at any given moment I will rise (or sit) as the occasion demands. If the horse is getting stuck in half pass, sometimes a few steps rising will help it; if the horse has trouble balancing in piaffe a few steps slightly forward and off the back will help it. Just baldly issuing a decree that NO ONE EVER can ride a 10m circle in rising trot is not going to train horses.

I give displays of classical dressage every week and have trained all my horses this way; works for me....

 

[milliepops]

If you are needing to rise in more collected movements then the horse is not yet ready to be working them, it is not supple enough or strong enough in the back - go back a step and develop the strength first.

I am a very classical dressage person who spends time getting the horse to the different levels - too many horses these days are asked to work too advanced before they are physically strong enough. The horse MUST be supple laterally from circles and longitudinal from transitions before it is asked to perform more advanced work.

An alternative viewpoint is that the lateral work can be used to develop the strength and suppleness in the horse, and that they don't need to start by producing competition quality sideways. In those circumstances, as well as others, it is helpful to the horse for the rider to get off their back while they learn different ways of using their bodies.

It's a cliche but seems relevant at this point given other posts... Carl and Charlotte are frequently seen doing the 'advanced' work in rising trot as a loosening exercise and also to avoid needlessly giving the horse additional work in carrying the rider... fair to say that they have done quite a bit for the success and progress of British Dressage (global dressage?!) so I'd be wary of sticking to hard & fast rules.

 

[ester]

Well that thread developed.
My pony is perfectly capable of doing a 10 m circle, and lots of other things in rising trot, I would worry if he wasn't and needed me to somehow support him through it- that would make me think he wasn't ready for it more than anything!

Which is handy because I have in the past challenged trainers to have a go if they suggested much sitting trot, and I would have a sense of relief that I was still capable riding anything else . Oh and it wasn't for lack of suppleness or strength it was mostly because of his conformation/type . I imagine if I could ride for hours every day I might have been able to manage but we came to agreement a few years ago that it was neither necessary or helpful for either of us but that it needn't limit our options too much training wise, keeping in mind how much you are expecting an ageing horse to do anyway. I would only ever sit on things that weren't yet established intermittently as and when required/I thought it would help. That seemed logical to me.