TURNERS ABBATOIR - RED LION

[ILuvCowparsely]

Personally I would like to see a public channel showing slaughter .. good practice as a means to educate those who haven't a clue about how meat is produced.. there is far too much ignorance .. if the public view humane methods at UK slaughterhouses it means that UK produced meat will improve its standing with the public.. there will be few vocal fringe bods who kick up about killing animals for food but they are in reality few.. just very noisy.. the point being that if the general public are well informed they will better be able to rationalise humane slaughter rather than react emotionally when the fringe minority use emotive and sensational propaganda.

CCTV should be viewed as a WIN WIN scenario.

Personally speaking I would not watch it. I do not enjoy watching animals being slaughtered.

CCTV yes for making sure animals do not suffer, but I will avoid seeing that ty. Others watch it if you wish but any program like that which comes on tv for education or what ever will not be watched by me, seeing poor animals being shot or stund is not my idea of tv watching.

Saw this first hand in the 1970's and it changed my life, my views are still the same.


I just didn't like to think about the poor animals, seeing rabbits being skewed on prongs like peas, or some on calling the cow over saying daisy daisy come her - cow comes over and he slits her throat children supposed not to be traumatized by that?? well they were. This would not be allowed now.

 

[amandap]

Done well slaughter is not dramatic .. so no I think "sickos" would find it really boring I don't really see the problem with children seeing slaughter done well.. it is instantaneous and not traumatic. I think this is a large part of the problem .. children are shielded from seeing things like this and it therefore becomes more of an issue than it should be.

Yes, I agree it may be boring done well but I was thinking of the hanging and bleeding but I suppose it depends how the CCTV is angled. I do agree children are too sheltered in many respects (the opposite in others!) but I can't get my head round slaughter TV.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

The thing is, that horses arrive at the Red Lion during the week and are penned until slaughter, which, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I think this happens once a week on a Friday. Therefore, sick, lame and frightened horses may be penned with other unknown horses for days.
I would love someone to correct me on this, but a local farmer told me this.

Therefore. wouldn't it make sense for CCTV to monitor these horses from arrival until despatch and not just during periods when FSA are required to be present ?

It might just improve work practice and make the jobs better for the good guys who have to work in this environment with people who should never be let near a sentient being?

I just don't understand the objection to CCTV.

 

[elijahasgal]

To me, there is video out there of red lion slaughter, and potters in taunton. They are like chalk and cheese.
Potters the animal is calmy led into the room and shot, you can see the speed that they are dead, then chained out and bled. No cruelty. Almost compassionate. Even the horse that is down outside, that animal welfare makes a huge fuss about (the horse is down, no injuries apparent, looks in general good health, may be winded...)
Red lion, the whole set up is a factory. the animals may be stunned, but they are still hung up alive, and I cannot get my head around that. Its mechanised and grim.
Yes CCTV needs to be there, they need cameras that can be watched on site, or monitered outside. Just the simple fact that they are there and recording should help stop wrong doing. It can be prooved, is not just word of mouth, one against another. Its impartial.

 

[Alec Swan]

The thing is, that horses arrive at the Red Lion during the week and are penned until slaughter, .......

I just don't understand the objection to CCTV.

I agree with you that there is, and should be a concern about lairage conditions. If the sick and the lame are made to stand for days, with other horses, then again, this is wrong. Monitoring Animal Welfare is the responsibility of the Government Officer who is employed, in part, for that purpose.

I don't "object" to cctv cameras, I just think that they will be a waist of time, and they will achieve nothing, because there will be no one to watch them. Even if there were someone to watch them, are you honestly suggesting that there should be two people employed to do the same job? Are you suggesting that there should be one Government Official, and someone to watch 6 or 8 hours of film footage, every day?

To me, there is video out there of red lion slaughter, and potters in taunton. They are like chalk and cheese.
Potters the animal is calmy led into the room and shot, you can see the speed that they are dead, then chained out and bled. No cruelty. Almost compassionate. Even the horse that is down outside, that animal welfare makes a huge fuss about (the horse is down, no injuries apparent, looks in general good health, may be winded...)
Red lion, the whole set up is a factory. the animals may be stunned, but they are still hung up alive, and I cannot get my head around that. Its mechanised and grim.
Yes CCTV needs to be there, they need cameras that can be watched on site, or monitered outside. Just the simple fact that they are there and recording should help stop wrong doing. It can be prooved, is not just word of mouth, one against another. Its impartial.

I agree with you that the system used at Potters is the ideal, and the treatment of those horses which were driven in to a shooting box at The Red Lion, was anything but ideal. I suspect that Potters were set up specifically for horses, and the other was converted from it's more usual work with cattle, but I'm not sure about that.

As the clamour for cctv seems to be gathering momentum, then we'll see the outcome. I suspect that those who are campaigning will win the day, and that they will be installed, but my honest belief is that they will be a complete waist of time and money, and they wont prevent animal cruelty.

I continue to answer the same question with broadly the same answer. If others believe that my argument is skewed, or wrong, then explain to me how. I'm genuinely happy to hear, and if there are points which I've missed, then I'll listen.

I've worked in an abattoir where there was a resident, and State employed Vet. The subject is probably grounds for another thread, but as the turn round of State staff, at that particular premises, was as rapid as it was, there was a permanent culture in place where there was effectively a stand off. Those Vets were almost all of Eastern European extract, generally their English was very poor, and as they all so often came from a culture where animal welfare isn't actually the priority, they were rarely present at the times when they should have been. Many of these vets qualified in their home lands, and with the promise of improved wages, they arrive here, and the only work available to them, is Government work, work I would add that most of our British vets don't want.

I'm not bashing vets, and I'm not "opposed" to cctv cameras, apart from the grounds which I've given. There's nothing wrong with our existing system, except that it isn't working, and it isn't working because of inefficiency and a good old fashioned culture which involves those in officialdom turning a blind eye.

The above statements DO NOT apply to every British Abattoir, but they do within some, and as we all agree, it's time for change.

Alec.

 

[Bertieb123]

I agree with you that the system used at Potters is the ideal, and the treatment of those horses which were driven in to a shooting box at The Red Lion, was anything but ideal. I suspect that Potters were set up specifically for horses, and the other was converted from it's more usual work with cattle, but I'm not sure about that.

I've worked in an abattoir where there was a resident, and State employed Vet. The subject is probably grounds for another thread, but as the turn round of State staff, at that particular premises, was as rapid as it was, there was a permanent culture in place where there was effectively a stand off.

Agree Alec Potters is ideal, it is actually a multi-species abattoir BUT there are a couple of differences between there and Turners. Potters has a purpose built stunning pen for horses (or you could call it a large room) totally enclosed out of view of anything going on and they use a free bullet.
Turners uses a normal Cattle stun box and appear to use a Captive bolt gun or cow punch which is not ideal for horses. I have been to Potters a couple of times and can hand on heart say the horses do not know what is going on, and they 'wash down' the box between each horse.

As for your other point you could have hit the nail on the head there.

Something else I been thinking about too, Ok I not going to say about officials but really we should blame EVERYONE for what happened in Red Lion (The one golden rule in a slaughterhouse) Alec, you would probably know this "No person engaged in the movement, lairaging, restraint, stunning, slaughter or killing of animals should permit any avoidable excitement, pain or suffering to any animal" taken from a passage of the WASK regs 1995 and it used to be written on the back of the slaughtermans licence (not sure if it still is). So perhaps we should ask ourselves what management and employees were doing too.

 

[Anglebracket]

Here's something you can do, the government is due to update legislation regarding the slaughter of animals in the UK. Email the minister for agriculture and food David Heath or click the link to use the campaign email direct link which asks for compulsory CCTV monitoring in slaughter houses.
CCTV is supported all welfare charities and as the UK has the most CCTV cameras in the world, it seems rather strange that you are likely to be filmed every day of your life, whereas an animal in a slaughter house is housed and killed without 24/7 monitoring.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaigns/farm/cctv

Thanks for posting the above campaign link. Hope enough people participate to make a difference.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

"No person engaged in the movement, lairaging, restraint, stunning, slaughter or killing of animals should permit any avoidable excitement, pain or suffering to any animal" taken from a passage of the WASK regs 1995 and it used to be written on the back of the slaughtermans licence (not sure if it still is). So perhaps we should ask ourselves what management and employees were doing too.

How right you are, and how I agree with the sentiments. We now have in too many premises, a lack of care which says as much for Society, as it does for those who carry out such cruelty. The truth is that we don't really care.

Alec.

 

[elijahasgal]

The main thing about cctv is that it is there and recording, and the people being recorded have NO idea if they are being watched or not. Nor weather they they will be monitored or not later on.
If someone wanted to play back, they could easily fast forward between the happenings.
It really is the best way forward. That and the use of a free bullet so the animal is actually dead when it is hung to be bled.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

1. yes a group has been set up, wow well done Einstien!
2. Its not just bute that is in the horse food chain, there is also antibiotics, fly sprays, sweet itch treatments, wormers, other pain killers, fitness enhancers etc etc, could this be all linked to so many cancers in humans?
3. The group understand the "need" for slaughter houses. We would prefer (if you had seen the posts on the FB page) that the animals are shot quickly and with as less fuss as possible (as on footage from Potters).
4. We do not agree with the treatment of horses at Red Lion, it is "breaking the law".
5. Turners should be closed and all operations suspended, until pending prosecution is completed. How and why this is not happening I do not know. After all they have broke the law.
6. CCTV will hopefully ensure that the processing of horses (and other animals in slaughter houses) is done swiftly, as stated by the law and without cruelty. Again watch all the footage available, you tube, Hillside animal sanctuary etc.
7. All monies collected by the group from the sales of products are going directly to Hillside.
8. The group was also started to bring awareness to what happens to horses at slaughter houses. As we all know horses are super sensitive. If possible shoot the horse in the head, at home, with its owner, while it is eating a bucket of feed, then the horse can go to the hounds. This way the animal does not have to endure the trip, the smells, the noise etc.
9. If there is a need for a horse slaughter house they must abide by the rules and regulations.
10. Breeders for the meat trade
11. Alec how would you expect ppl to react from such a "short" piece of film? The majority of ppl are horrified to see the small clip. The rest can't be shown obviously for legal reasons. I have seen a tiny bit more than whats available and I can assure you "it is very grim"
12. The vets opinion in the film is one of horror and he says "oh thats not right" because its not right, the horse should be unconscious before its bled. And the person sharpening his knives, slowly, while the horse is coming round, the vet comments "why is he taking his time"? why was he taking his time? Perhaps the other vets who discredited this footage and the vets reactions are the very same vets who have gone a bit blind to this issue. Just saying
13. The group is not pointless, as is any other forum or FB page on this issue. There are a lot of ppl who had no idea horses even got slaughter, in there fluffy likkle world. They had NO idea of how cows, sheep etc are kept or slaughtered. A lot of educated ppl from a huge spectrum of professions are giving a lot of valuable input to these issues.

So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!! The animals has served you well, you owe it this last mission in its life

Horse killers, do the job swiftly and with compassion, for want of words

Horse breeders for slaughter

 

[Crazy horse lady]

1. yes a group has been set up, wow well done Einstien!
2. Its not just bute that is in the horse food chain, there is also antibiotics, fly sprays, sweet itch treatments, wormers, other pain killers, fitness enhancers etc etc, could this be all linked to so many cancers in humans?
3. The group understand the "need" for slaughter houses. We would prefer (if you had seen the posts on the FB page) that the animals are shot quickly and with as less fuss as possible (as on footage from Potters).
4. We do not agree with the treatment of horses at Red Lion, it is "breaking the law".
5. Turners should be closed and all operations suspended, until pending prosecution is completed. How and why this is not happening I do not know. After all they have broke the law.
6. CCTV will hopefully ensure that the processing of horses (and other animals in slaughter houses) is done swiftly, as stated by the law and without cruelty. Again watch all the footage available, you tube, Hillside animal sanctuary etc.
7. All monies collected by the group from the sales of products are going directly to Hillside.
8. The group was also started to bring awareness to what happens to horses at slaughter houses. As we all know horses are super sensitive. If possible shoot the horse in the head, at home, with its owner, while it is eating a bucket of feed, then the horse can go to the hounds. This way the animal does not have to endure the trip, the smells, the noise etc.
9. If there is a need for a horse slaughter house they must abide by the rules and regulations.
10. Breeders for the meat trade
11. Alec how would you expect ppl to react from such a "short" piece of film? The majority of ppl are horrified to see the small clip. The rest can't be shown obviously for legal reasons. I have seen a tiny bit more than whats available and I can assure you "it is very grim"
12. The vets opinion in the film is one of horror and he says "oh thats not right" because its not right, the horse should be unconscious before its bled. And the person sharpening his knives, slowly, while the horse is coming round, the vet comments "why is he taking his time"? why was he taking his time? Perhaps the other vets who discredited this footage and the vets reactions are the very same vets who have gone a bit blind to this issue. Just saying
13. The group is not pointless, as is any other forum or FB page on this issue. There are a lot of ppl who had no idea horses even got slaughter, in there fluffy likkle world. They had NO idea of how cows, sheep etc are kept or slaughtered. A lot of educated ppl from a huge spectrum of professions are giving a lot of valuable input to these issues.

So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!! The animals has served you well, you owe it this last mission in its life

Horse killers, do the job swiftly and with compassion, for want of words

Horse breeders for slaughter

Oh and support your local butchers x

 

[Crazy horse lady]

For all of those with horses its horrible to think of them ending up in the slaughter house...but it is a necessity.
Anyone who thinks it should be banned in the uk needs to think seriuosly about what the alternatives are. There isn t an alternative.

I agree, that would be THE worst thing ever to ban horse slaughter in the UK. As much as I hate horse slaughter.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Personally speaking I would not watch it. I do not enjoy watching animals being slaughtered.

CCTV yes for making sure animals do not suffer, but I will avoid seeing that ty. Others watch it if you wish but any program like that which comes on tv for education or what ever will not be watched by me, seeing poor animals being shot or stund is not my idea of tv watching.

Saw this first hand in the 1970's and it changed my life, my views are still the same.


I just didn't like to think about the poor animals, seeing rabbits being skewed on prongs like peas, or some on calling the cow over saying daisy daisy come her - cow comes over and he slits her throat children supposed not to be traumatized by that?? well they were. This would not be allowed now.

If ppl saw how animals are killed, it would probably put them off for life. i am not a veggie, but i actually can't stomach meat after seeing all the videos of slaughter lately, blood, guts, pain, animals screaming, animals panicking in the kill line, the fear in their eyes, the transportation, I have dearly tried, but I do love animals, its muscle we are eating, yukk. When those burgers (home made of course with british beef) are sizzling on the bbq, I think I may have to be totally pissed to eat on.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

But I freely admit that the best of my fun, I owe it to horse and hound.

 

[igglepop]

From FB incase you care.


Have you seen the posts on h&h forum about red lion? Hey Alec if you see this, the footage they showed was found to be acceptable, the rest is not, and will not be shown for legal reasons. we realise there is a need for horse slaughter, there is no need to do it cruely and in humanely . If you break the law be prepared to suffer the consequences. This man appears to think he is indistructable a HUGE pillar of the community, he's going down mate, going down............
Like · · Follow post · 23 hours ago

Alec, if only you could see these posts on here, I'm sure word will get back to you. We, as a pointless group? Would rather horses be shot at home than endure freight to death, then the trauma of going through the dispatching process at turners. Also all the monies we have raised from our campaigning will go to Hillside.

 

[Alec Swan]

I agree, that would be THE worst thing ever to ban horse slaughter in the UK. As much as I hate horse slaughter.

Loathing the idea of horse slaughter, whilst accepting the realities, is a realistic and laudable view, I think. The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport. Specifically with horses, many will find the idea of watching it, to be distressing, and would be fearful of witnessing the act, though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.

 

[elijahasgal]

Whatever happens, as long as the animals are treated humanly, necessaties must be faced.
America Banned slaughter of horses.
Net result, horses were still slaughtered, just shipped to mexico and canada, on trips that lasted several days, without food and water
Mexico slaughter is EVIL
Canada, its little more than a production line, BUT a lot of the horses were totally wild
Also a chunk of the trade went secret and underground, so guess what? nobody knows how those horses were killed, what they endured, nor what was in their systems at the time.
They banned horses from being put down, unless it was totally essential.
Guess what? More horses got shuffled onto the meat wagons, so their end was suffering for days
They banned horses from being shot (The quickest and kindest way going) What are people on ranches, or miles out on trails supposed to do in case of an accident that the worst happens? Not legally allowed the quick dispatch, so in theory they should somehow get back to base and get a vet out into the wilds to euthanise the animal. How much suffering.

Personally I will if I can have my horses that need it put down at home. The people that take them to the Slaughterhouses, at least they know that the animals are not suffering, being passed from one hand to the other.

 

[Moomin1]

If ppl saw how animals are killed, it would probably put them off for life. i am not a veggie, but i actually can't stomach meat after seeing all the videos of slaughter lately, blood, guts, pain, animals screaming, animals panicking in the kill line, the fear in their eyes, the transportation, I have dearly tried, but I do love animals, its muscle we are eating, yukk. When those burgers (home made of course with british beef) are sizzling on the bbq, I think I may have to be totally pissed to eat on.

What an absolute load of scaremongering.

For starters, 'blood', 'guts' - what do you think will happen at a slaughterhouse?!!

Secondly, you have watched some videos, portraying horrendous things at a slaughterhouse. Have you been to a reputable one, in person, and watched?

Thirdly, what on earth did you think you were eating?! Bone?!!

 

[Beau jangles]

They should regulate how many horses a stallion is allowed to produce a year ! Technology works too well with AI a stallion can still produce youngstock years after they are dead !
And surrogate mares for embryo transfer !

Put a cap on breeding that will control it a bit better , well in my dreams anyway

 

[elijahasgal]

@Beau Jangles
The only thing that you miss in capping the horses is this
The ones that they do AI and in particularly Embryo transfer are likely to be the ones that are valuable, competing and doing well, with good confirmation and bloodlines (Look at the costs involved) done by people who care.
What needs to be limited is things like excess breeding in the TB industry, where the wastage is high. natural and indiscriminate cover of semi feral horses, or just because people dont geld nor segregate.
What are the horses that are going there?

 

[FionaM12]

So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!!

Sorry but I simply can't take anyone's views seriously when they write a statement like that.

The use of the word "murder" IMO is childish and an attempt to be emotive. Look up the definition. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Euthanasing your horse is neither unlawful, nor is your horse human. It is not murder and it's pretty silly to suggest it.

Also, the horses going for slaughter very often don't have "homes" in the way you suggest, or not ones who can afford to pts at home. Many are unwanted or bred for the meat trade. Most of us who consider our horses as much-loved family members will obviously not send them to an abattoir but the majority destined for slaughter are not in such happy circumstances.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

What an absolute load of scaremongering.

For starters, 'blood', 'guts' - what do you think will happen at a slaughterhouse?!!

Secondly, you have watched some videos, portraying horrendous things at a slaughterhouse. Have you been to a reputable one, in person, and watched?

Thirdly, what on earth did you think you were eating?! Bone?!!

I can assure you, I know exactly what goes on in a slaughter house. I have seen animals processed humanely and inhumanly. I do not eat bone.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Sorry but I simply can't take anyone's views seriously when they write a statement like that.

The use of the word "murder" IMO is childish and an attempt to be emotive. Look up the definition. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Euthanasing your horse is neither unlawful, nor is your horse human. It is not murder and it's pretty silly to suggest it.

Also, the horses going for slaughter very often don't have "homes" in the way you suggest, or not ones who can afford to pts at home. Many are unwanted or bred for the meat trade. Most of us who consider our horses as much-loved family members will obviously not send them to an abattoir but the majority destined for slaughter are not in such happy circumstances.

Any form of killing an animal to some is seen as murder. But thank you for your correction on my description.

I am very aware that a lot of these horses do not have homes. Hence my comment that I would rather they are killed with their heads in a bucket of feed and then sent to the hounds. Rather than go through the horror of the abattoir.

I also agree that some horses would, unfortualty, be better off dead than living a miserable existence.

 

[Alec Swan]

From FB incase you care.


....... Hey Alec if you see this, the footage they showed was found to be acceptable, the rest is not, and will not be shown for legal reasons. we realise there is a need for horse slaughter, there is no need to do it cruely and in humanely . If you break the law be prepared to suffer the consequences. This man appears to think he is indistructable a HUGE pillar of the community, he's going down mate, going down............
Like · · Follow post · 23 hours ago

Alec, if only you could see these posts on here, I'm sure word will get back to you. ........

igglepop, I have never at any time supported any form of lack of care for any animal facing slaughter. Are you threatening me?

Alec.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Loathing the idea of horse slaughter, whilst accepting the realities, is a realistic and laudable view, I think. The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport. Specifically with horses, many will find the idea of watching it, to be distressing, and would be fearful of witnessing the act, though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.

I agree. Hence my recommendation that horses should be shot swiftly and peacefully, as in the footage at Potters. There are, unfortunately, some vile and law breaking practices at said Turners.

 

[Bertieb123]

Loathing the idea of horse slaughter, whilst accepting the realities, is a realistic and laudable view, I think. The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport. Specifically with horses, many will find the idea of watching it, to be distressing, and would be fearful of witnessing the act, though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.

Agree Alec, and while Alec and myself have not always seen eye to eye I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.

I do wonder myself how many times some who have posted have actually spent time in an abattoir? Alec is correct the process is usually a very peaceful one for any species, yes distressing to the untrained eye. Ok there have been problems that need addressing they are a minority, I know many slaughtermen and they are very compassionate, even not working in a abattoir the day their own stock go through and are also very saddened about recent events, please don't tar all with the same brush.

As for Hillside I take my hat off to them for highlighting issues, (have seen the latest horrendous farm footage), I do worry that these people may be putting themselves at risk if they caught filming and would the footage stand up in court as it was done by trespass? It is very frustrating that certain bodies don't seem to be acting (FSA, Trading Standards, Animal Health) worrying they all Government perhaps we should ask them why? Oh and as for RSPCA I would never knowingly give them a penny of mine!

 

[amandap]

I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.

I agree. Imo Alec posts some very realistic thoughts.

I have never been to an abbatoir but I do think it should be, and often is, a calm process done well. As I said on another thread I couldn't do it myself but I do feel supportive of those who can and also have respect for the animals.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Agree Alec, and while Alec and myself have not always seen eye to eye I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.

I do wonder myself how many times some who have posted have actually spent time in an abattoir? Alec is correct the process is usually a very peaceful one for any species, yes distressing to the untrained eye. Ok there have been problems that need addressing they are a minority, I know many slaughtermen and they are very compassionate, even not working in a abattoir the day their own stock go through and are also very saddened about recent events, please don't tar all with the same brush.

As for Hillside I take my hat off to them for highlighting issues, (have seen the latest horrendous farm footage), I do worry that these people may be putting themselves at risk if they caught filming and would the footage stand up in court as it was done by trespass? It is very frustrating that certain bodies don't seem to be acting (FSA, Trading Standards, Animal Health) worrying they all Government perhaps we should ask them why? Oh and as for RSPCA I would never knowingly give them a penny of mine!

AGREE.

I think the quote above is not directed at Alec, but at Mr Turner.

 

[Moomin1]

I can assure you, I know exactly what goes on in a slaughter house. I have seen animals processed humanely and inhumanly. I do not eat bone.

So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself.

My comment was aimed at the fact that you seem to be including 'blood', 'guts' and the fact that the meat we eat is muscle, in the whole debate surrounding the INHUMANE methods used in the footage of Turners. Why is the fact that there is an abundance of blood and guts raised? It's like saying that it's shocking and puts you off going to hospital because operating theatres have lots of blood and guts in them! Of course there is!!

Also, you are making a judgement on eating meat based on one set of footage from one abbattoir.

The two slaughterhouses I actually shot cattle in were very welfare minded and sympathetic.

 

[guido16]

Alec,

Igglepop didn't write that, she copied it from a FB page for your benefit. I think the old "don't shoot the messenger"phrase applies.

G