Update on Lari

[SO1]

Sorry to hear this. Maybe take a video of what is happening with eating so you can show to the vet. Even if you retire him you may need to think about pain relief if he is uncomfortable with the head down position as he may struggle to get enough grass.

 

[Birker2020]

Sorry to hear this. Maybe take a video of what is happening with eating so you can show to the vet. Even if you retire him you may need to think about pain relief if he is uncomfortable with the head down position as he may struggle to get enough grass.

I know, this thought had crossed my mind.

My first vet said that the bone remodelling could be as a result of the accident that he had with me when he pulled back and the already halved bailing twine never gave.

The second vet said remodelling where you can see it on xray is a relatively slow exercise and can take 6-8 weeks. Not 11 days. Which rather pinpoints to the fact he had this already when I bought him.

Given that my farrier has noted a huge crack in the inside of the foot which was from a traumatic over reach injury which will have taken at least a year to reach the stage it is at, my best guess is that somewhere along the line the horse has suffered a bad fall either whilst ridden or out at pasture and hurt his neck. This has put undue strain on other parts of the body where is has been overcompensating. I can never prove or disprove and its one of the things you have to accept sadly.

 

[sbloom]

I would look at systemic issues if you want to pursue any lines of "enquiry" with him. Groundwork (the link I posted before in this thread, this shows her approach really well https://www.nwhorsesource.com/celes...es-and-humans-through-structural-integration/), bodywork, treating the hind gut etc....I think you have too many issues going on that the vets are going to be able to fix him. Vets are absolutely necessary and a good one is worth their weight, but there are other ways of looking at these issues, especially for very complex issues, or that NQR that so many horses have.

Denerving and shaving two spinal processes, when groundwork and bodywork might help him as much or more, I know which way I'd go.

Not saying at all that you shouldn't retire him, or PTS, absolutely no judgement from me, but I think there's a big black hole of effort potentially looming.

 

[Birker2020]

Denerving and shaving two spinal processes, when groundwork and bodywork might help him as much or more, I know which way I'd go.

Not saying at all that you shouldn't retire him, or even PTS, absolutely no judgement from me, but I think there's a big black hole of effort potentially looming.

Yep this is what I'm worried about, the big black hole of effort. Quite frankly I'm sick of it. I'm not a nurse or vet nurse, I have rehabbed my previous horse numerous times but I owed him that, I'd had him a long time. And I rehabbed Lari for about 5 or 6 months, but I'd rather not have to do it again much as I love him. I can't stand the disappointment if it all goes wrong not to mention the inevitable fall if he is not comfortable.

I've also had another angle on this, one where he is just misbehaving, he knows what buttons to press and the fact that he plays up every time he is asked to go in the school (when ridden) only enforces this belief. I do not agree with this theory but thought I would voice it as its been mentioned to me.

He's been round the block and he is certainly crafty, but I don't think even he is capable of engineering getting out of work by planting or spinning when faced it the direction of the school or reacting when he is first sat on so he doesn't have to work anymore. I'd appreciate peoples view on this though.

 

[sbloom]

Your gut is right, horses only do that for a good reason. I would turn him away to give yourself a break, and then don't see it as rehab, see it as learning, though I know how hard it must be to go through all of this and not think you might have a riding horse at the end of it. What you will learn will help any horse you know in the future. Did you look at those links? Celeste is utterly fascinating and effects incredible change in horses. I don't know where you are but I know a few more "alternative bodyworkers" who may be able to help, Celeste's approach is based around structural integration, something I think I'm going to investigate for me once we finally relocate to Scotland.

 

[ycbm]

Hey thanks for this Angel 7, some good advice.

Part of me is considering further investigation but in view of all his other issues (hocks, SI, KS, neck arthritis (possibly), coffin joint arthritis, can't keep shoes on for five minutes, loses weight quickly I honestly don't know if I want to go down that route.

Tuesday evening he had a clench sticking out under his foot, it had managed to loosen itself so that it had double backed on itself and he was stood on the shaft of it but it was still connected to the outside wall of the foot. So I managed to pull the clench out of the foot but I kind of guessed he'd lose the shoe and sure enough last night when I got to the yard he was missing the shoe. It took an hour or so but we found it in the end. Last night he went out in a foot boot and I got him in at 6.30am this morning and he still had it on so no more damage for now.

I've also noticed that when I give him a bowl of feed on the floor he takes a mouthful then raises his head to eat it slowly. But when he has a bowl held in my hands or a manger bowl that fits on the stable door he doesn't take his head out of it. This rather makes me wonder whether his issues are down to the C5-C6, C6- C7 bone remodelling that the xrays found back in November. I wonder if this alone could be the route cause.

The farrier is coming out today to put the shoe back on but there's not much horn left around the sides, he's really messed it up. He had over reach boots on (he never has them off as he's done this before) but they've really taken a bashing whilst he was away on sales livery for some reason. He's been on Happy Hoof/Healthy Hooves for about 18 months now (as previous owner did to) so that's doing naff all.

So in view of all the issues I'm not sure we will ever get him right.
If we do he will be a complete money pit in the future and he is only 11. I will be jabbing him every 12 months or more. And if he starts hurting again I will be on the floor, there's no two ways about it. I don't feel confident to get on him again to do any investigative work or to rehab him.

However, I've spoken to someone who said they might be able to do schooling livery for me to see if we can get him going into full work and see how he bears up if I do go down the route of ulcer/PSL route but already my excesses have and will cost me over £1000 if they decide to split all the claims and I don't know how much more money I can pour into him.

I am going to speak to the vet frankly next Friday and see if it worth continuing investigation. I know he is a vet and its in his interests to make money but I am sure that he will also consider the horses best interests and so I am hoping he will give me a fair indication of what he thinks. I am also desperate to speak to my vet physio friend and get her take on it, although I kind of already know her feelings.

I also have to consider my mental health. I have got to the stage now where I am really struggling with all the stress. I have had weeks of 3-5 hour nights sleep, I feel constantly drained and tired although my gym sessions make me feel better. I worry constantly about his future, this morning I would have happily agreed to have him PTS if a vet had been on the yard, yet the day before wanted full investigations!

Its a nightmare, I said to my other half this morning, all I want is some light hearted fun in my life, I'm sick of it all, the stress and the financial burden.

There is no shame in giving up Birker, he sounds like a very broken horse and a complete money pit for the rest of his life.

I wouldn't keep going in your shoes, I would put him where he can never be in pain again.
.

 

[Birker2020]

There is no shame in giving up Birker, he sounds like a very broken horse and a complete money pit for the rest of his life.

I wouldn't keep going in your shoes, I would put him where he can never be in pain again.
.

I know I have thought this too, this morning when I was awake from 2 - 5am, tossing and turning and going over and over in my mind the right thing to do, looking up vet articles on my phone and trying to find retirement livery in the area.

Its just that its so unfair (on him). None of this is his fault, he's been totally let down, my feeling is there is no way he should have passed his vetting. There is no way that I have broken him to the extent he is in, in the two dozen times I've sat on him and the pro riders he's had sit on him certainly haven't pushed him in terms of doing more than he was capable of.

Its so bl**dy heart wrenching.

What makes it worse is having to try and explain this to my O/H who loves the horse as much as I do and is looking at things through rose tinted glasses - he is totally opposed to retirement livery. I wonder how he would feel nursing me if I ended up in a wheelchair after been thrown again from a horse still in pain. I haven't even dared mentioned the possibility of PTS yet.

 

[Sandstone1]

If you still have insurance if it were me I would scope for ulcers and possibly treat any treatable lameness. Then turn out for six months and see where you are then. Also would you have any come back from the vetting as it seems he should not have passed.

 

[sbloom]

I know I have thought this too, this morning when I was awake from 2 - 5am, tossing and turning and going over and over in my mind the right thing to do, looking up vet articles on my phone and trying to find retirement livery in the area.

Its just that its so unfair (on him). None of this is his fault, he's been totally let down, my feeling is there is no way he should have passed his vetting. There is no way that I have broken him to the extent he is in, in the two dozen times I've sat on him and the pro riders he's had sit on him certainly haven't pushed him in terms of doing more than he was capable of.

Its so bl**dy heart wrenching.

What makes it worse is having to try and explain this to my O/H who loves the horse as much as I do and is looking at things through rose tinted glasses - he is totally opposed to retirement livery. I wonder how he would feel nursing me if I ended up in a wheelchair after been thrown again from a horse still in pain. I haven't even dared mentioned the possibility of PTS yet.

Problems like these go back a long way, bone remodelling might only take weeks but the compensatory movement patterns that lead to them are, from my understanding, likely to have gone back further. Please don't blame yourself, and I really hope your OH comes to see things in a more rounded way. His rose tinted glasses could easily tip over into cruelty, we have no right to ride horses full stop, let alone put them through endless vet treatments and stress. Only writing this in case it gives you the words to help him see it, not to make you feel worse.

 

[Birker2020]

If you still have insurance if it were me I would scope for ulcers and possibly treat any treatable lameness. Then turn out for six months and see where you are then. Also would you have any come back from the vetting as it seems he should not have passed.

The first vet that was involved in the process at the start (my vet for the past 17 years) didn't want to even consider that the horse could have been compromised physically before I took ownership, he said the vet I'd used for the 5 stage vetting was really good (I have no idea how he knows that from the other end of the country) and it seemed very much a case of 'old boys network' type of thing.

As the horse seemed to be getting better and building topline and strength, and as I'd had a couple of nice rides both at the viewing and on my yard (before a professional told me he was lame) I felt he would be okay.

When he initially ran into problems it was because the saddle didn't fit him and because he'd pulled back hurting his SI. It wasn't till months after that the KS issue came to light and the coffin joints and the hocks. It was only by chance that I knew about the neck arthritis as I'd practically demanded x-rays to be taken about two weeks later.

I've written to the vet that vetted him, in a non accusatory manner because I had already spoken to him on the phone back in December last year and he was very pleasant and helpful and I can't prove anything was done incorrectly. He had asked me to update him and I had said I would do so when appropriate. He said that he had carried out pressure to the SI joint as part of the vetting and the horse hadn't reacted. But I don't know if this is correct of course. I wasn't at the vetting as I couldn't afford to take time off work.

I haven't got a hope in hell of any vet who would be willing to question the vetting vets report, not unless it was a completely independent body. And then they would ask me questions like "how can you prove the problems haven't been caused by you? Why didn't you get the bloods taken given that you'd contacted two independent solicitors about being missold the horse?"

The reason I am writing on this forum in this way is because I know I've not got any comeback, so its irrelevant what I write now.

And to be quite honest I don't know that I have the strength to do a long hard battle that I might not win and might end up paying out for if i lose.

 

[sbloom]

I hope you don't mind me posting this, it's a lovely way of explaining where problems might not be pain (and perhaps I'm too quick to say most things ARE pain, but I'd prefer to be that way) and an approach of how to deal with them. Her blog is fascinating.

https://www.ethosequine.com/blog/giving-up-the-fight

 

[Birker2020]

I hope you don't mind me posting this, it's a lovely way of explaining where problems might not be pain (and perhaps I'm too quick to say most things ARE pain, but I'd prefer to be that way) and an approach of how to deal with them. Her blog is fascinating.

https://www.ethosequine.com/blog/giving-up-the-fight

Thank you

 

[sbloom]

I should say that he has enough diagnosed issues that it's almost certainly pain with him, but the article did strike a chord after the discussion on here.

 

[milliepops]

yeah i was going to say I took that approach with my very shut down nappy horse (follow any open door rather than keep banging on the closed one) but with Birker's horse it sadly sounds like the list of diagnoses is significant enough to explain "troublesome" behaviour.

 

[Michen]

It's always interesting with these types of horse and I wonder if an element is that they are "held together" by consistent and good enough work or a specific type of work and then it all sort of falls apart when one wheel falls off. I subscribe to Piggy March tv and she was talking about her (about to go 3* ex racer) she mentioned how he'd have close vertibrae, a locking stifle and other issues and that you have to sort of work around them whilst still keeping them strong and able to do a job. Equally when she talks about Vanir Kamir she says she cannot spend too much time working her "up" as she gets sore very easily.

I do wonder if Lari fell apart a bit when you ran in to saddle issues or when he was purchased and his work load changed. Maybe he was a ticking time bomb or maybe whatever his old owner was doing work wise just happened to keep him together. I know you did lots of rehab with him that was unsuccessful but I'd certainly chat to old owners and see how he was managed with them incase it throws up anything helpful.

I look at Boggle and wonder if he would be in such good nick if he wasn't kept so fit and so lean. It becomes apparent with racehorses too when they leave training and it all comes crashing down a bit.

 

[Birker2020]

It's always interesting with these types of horse and I wonder if an element is that they are "held together" by consistent and good enough work or a specific type of work and then it all sort of falls apart when one wheel falls off. I subscribe to Piggy March tv and she was talking about her (about to go 3* ex racer) she mentioned how he'd have close vertibrae, a locking stifle and other issues and that you have to sort of work around them whilst still keeping them strong and able to do a job. Equally when she talks about Vanir Kamir she says she cannot spend too much time working her "up" as she gets sore very easily.

I do wonder if Lari fell apart a bit when you ran in to saddle issues or when he was purchased and his work load changed. Maybe he was a ticking time bomb or maybe whatever his old owner was doing work wise just happened to keep him together. I know you did lots of rehab with him that was unsuccessful but I'd certainly chat to old owners and see how he was managed with them incase it throws up anything helpful.

I look at Boggle and wonder if he would be in such good nick if he wasn't kept so fit and so lean. It becomes apparent with racehorses too when they leave training and it all comes crashing down a bit.

I quite agree. This was the same with Bailey too. Work was the glue that holds them together. The previous owner said he'd need to be ridden every day. I said i could probably do 4, maybe 5 days a week and she agreed this would be fine.

Now i know why. Looking back I can't believe I didn't see between the lines but I was so blind, a heavy mixture of raw grief for Bailey and excitement at having found my next horse to love.

 

[Caol Ila]

I always wondered if I was holding Gypsum together with work. I knew she had some niggling SI and stifle issues, but correct dressage held them at bay, and they never gave her any bother until she was 27 and got other lameness issues that forced me to stop riding. It went to sh*t after that. Once I couldn't glue her together anymore, everything fell apart quickly.

 

[Upthecreek]

I’m so sorry you’re in this situation Birker. I would be very concerned about retiring a horse with so many issues. We can assume they are comfortable and not in pain when we aren’t asking anything of them which might provoke a reaction, but really we have no idea how they feel. Retiring a horse of his age potentially means many many years of expense to keep him, which ultimately prevents you having a horse you can ride. It sounds like you would not feel confident to try riding him again after a period of rest. I understand how you feel about wanting to do right by him, but you must consider the implications on you too.

 

[SEL]

I've only just seen this thread and I'm really sorry. When you've tried so hard to fix them and you can't it is heart breaking.

 

[sbloom]

It's always interesting with these types of horse and I wonder if an element is that they are "held together" by consistent and good enough work or a specific type of work and then it all sort of falls apart when one wheel falls off.

Definitely, if it's the right kind of work. I know a rehab trainer with a very tricky horse with historic KS and if the horse has any time off then it's a LONG road to get back to working again, working on that thoracic sling which will drop and cause discomfort when the back's not strong. However so many horses are in compensatory movement patterns that the work is causing the issues in many ways, and the problem will show at some point, it just might be that stopping work triggers it somehow.

 

[Birker2020]

I’m so sorry you’re in this situation Birker. I would be very concerned about retiring a horse with so many issues. We can assume they are comfortable and not in pain when we aren’t asking anything of them which might provoke a reaction, but really we have no idea how they feel. Retiring a horse of his age potentially means many many years of expense to keep him, which ultimately prevents you having a horse you can ride. It sounds like you would not feel confident to try riding him again after a period of rest. I understand how you feel about wanting to do right by him, but you must consider the implications on you too.

I hear what you say completely. Its a shame I can't put a video on here to show you what he is like moving, I just don't know how to, I've tried to compress it by zip but its still too big a file, so I shortened it using a Microsoft movie maker but its still too big. Grrr

Anyway the right fore lameness I feel was as a result of him having over reached at the sales livery, his over reach boots which he's had on every other day for the past 8 months (I swap with a second pair to wash and dry out) were trashed at the heel, when he went to livery there wasn't a mark on them. And a nail was sticking out from the shoe, he was actually stood on the clench. So if they'd not noticed when he was there the video they sent me showed right fore lameness as a result of the over reach. So the nail was removed, the shoe lost but was replaced by my lovely farrier yesterday, so fingers crossed. He's not going to do anything other than walker until next Friday when the vet is out so it will be interesting to see if the lameness is present.

The right hind lameness I was hoping I could put down to gastric ulcers but having done this test below, he is not showing issues

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+check+for+gastric+ulcers,+video,+horse&safe=active&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:{referrer:source}&ei=3TyHYriPKtO_gQa9poj4Dg&ved=0ahUKEwj48faDwe33AhXTX8AKHT0TAu8Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=how+to+check+for+gastric+ulcers,+video,+horse&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABOgcIABBHELADOgcIIRAKEKABOggIIRAeEBYQHToKCCEQHhAPEBYQHToECCEQCkoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCoBVjbG2DNHGgFcAF4AIAByAGIAdQLkgEFMy45LjGYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz#kpvalbx=_5DyHYoTSNPiDhbIP2_GZ-Ac11

As I say, I am having the vet out to ascertain if he will be able to live pain free. When I asked him back in March he was positive he'd be okay to retire but said at this point in time there was no need to retire. He's happy enough in his paddock, pootles around all day with his head down, interacts with the others on either side of him, canters off when you let him go, eats up well, always has an appetite, seems alert. He does walk with his head low at times I do admit, especially when first coming out of his box.

The vet said that the hock medication was to aid the SI and the coffin joint medication to aid the two KS inpingements. In November flexion tests showed no issues on all four as I read the old vets report yesterday, and of course the previous month the flexion tests also showed nothing as he flew the vetting. As for the neck, I need to get a new perspective of that.

If he goes to retirement I will visit reguarly and take note in the winter to see if he is holding his weight and has any lameness issues. The minute he shows decline the decision will be made, like I did with the previous horse. I just don't think I can pts until he has had a chance to see if he is happy in retirement if that is the way I choose to go. If he goes to the blood bank then I will not be able to check he is okay and that part worries me.

I appreciate everyone's comments though, as I don't really have anyone I can speak to about this that has been through similar. So thank you everyone who has replied.

 

[ycbm]

It's quite easy to load a video to YouTube and then copy the URL here and it will embed the video.
.

 

[Birker2020]

It's quite easy to load a video to YouTube and then copy the URL here and it will embed the video.
.

Aha. Okay i will give that a go.

The problem was last time I got a lot of flack off people because I put photos of my horse being ridden by the pro rider and everyone was saying how bad it was although I'd blanked her face out. So if I'm going to receive the same backlash maybe that's not such a good idea.

Maybe I can send it to a couple of people PM instead?

 

[nutjob]

You are taking a responsible and reasoned approach. For information, I have had one which spent 8 years in retirement, although I had to up the bute to keep him comfortable. I have tried unsuccessfully to retire 2 others, one went rapidly downhill once out of work and was PTS after 6 months, by that point it was clear what to do, the other kept reinjuring himself and I tried for 2 years with soul destroying rehabs and vet treatments to try to get him OK. There's no clear right or wrong answer here. Retirement liveries are the final stop for many more horses than private owners have to deal with so if you do go down this route I would hope they would also give you some guidance.

 

[Red-1]

My previous horse Jay needed work. I never really knew why I felt that so strongly, but I did. Finally, he was chased into a fence whilst in his field by a dog, and he did a small suspensory injury on a front leg. It was very minor injury and, just like the vet said, he made a full recovery. However, the time off let him kind of sag, and he became a wobbler.

He didn't recover from that.

He had 2 years in retirement. In the end, a stiff breeze would have blown him over, so I PTS. I did, however, really enjoy still having him here up until I felt his quality of life was too compromised.

I wish you luck with the vet appointment in a week.

 

[Birker2020]

He had 2 years in retirement. In the end, a stiff breeze would have blown him over, so I PTS. I did, however, really enjoy still having him here up until I felt his quality of life was too compromised.

I wish you luck with the vet appointment in a week.

I would enjoy Lari too if I had other horses to ride, but being surrounded by people having fun and seeing people ride every time I walk past the school kills me. I'd rather not be in that situation again after having that with Bailey in the last 7 months. Its like rubbing salt into a sore wound. I know I'm not the only one horse owner that can't ride, but I'd rather not be around horses if it hurts this much.

I've just found an old memory on FB from 9 years ago of me and Bails jumping 1.05m at a local centre. I can't believe I will never get that chance again, I feel so sad.

 

[Fire sign]

I have been following your posts and reading between the lines and worrying for you .. I so wanted it to be a success as was horse hunting myself at the time you bought Lari ... For what it's worth this is what I would do .. Firstly I would use up all of the insurance money on investigations and if nothing was detected I would spend the rest on treatments, physio and maybe drugs if the vet thought it would help . After that I would move Lari into reasonably priced semi retirement livery with lots of turn out in the summer and a warm stable at night in the winter .. this kind of livery isn't expensive because you won't be needing arenas and indoor schools and solariums and horse walkers .
I would do this for one year and then re assess

If he wasn't happy or sound after that I would consider PTS

And then I would get another horse and try again xxxxxx

 

[SO1]

I do feel for you but at the moment he is I presume field sound and not on box rest.

Rehab is exhausting and soul destroying having been through it twice in the last 2 years with my pony for soft tissue injuries and it was just feeling like we were edging towards a more normal routine and he is lame again on a different leg. There happened to be a vet from the practice on the yard at time who had a quick look at him and could not find anything obvious need to wait till his normal vet who is a lameness specialist to see him next week. She wanted to put him back on box rest till then but as he had a colic attack on Sunday and is prone to colic and had two previous attacks whilst on box rest I am going against vet advice and he is going to continue to go in his small rehab paddock as he needs some sort of movement. I am beginning to think once they have had one injury it is very difficult to keep them sound long term. Not sure what I will do if it is a 3rd soft tissue injury I am exhausted after rehabing for the best part of two years and not sure I could cope with another rehab back to back or it would be fair on him to have to go back on box rest after just 3 months of being back on turnout again.

I think the problem you are having is complicated as you have lost your confidence on him and do not have a professional to help you bring him back into work even if he could be fixed and very difficult if you need to go down the box rest and rehab route if that was offered as a solution as that is even harder without a professional rider if you don't feel confident yourself.

I do understand it is hard seeing others enjoying riding when you cannot especially with a new horse. I have had mine for 15 years and 12 of them have been good.

I am not sure what the solution is Birker and can understand why you are having sleepless nights.

 

[Birker2020]

I have been following your posts and reading between the lines and worrying for you .. I so wanted it to be a success as was horse hunting myself at the time you bought Lari ... For what it's worth this is what I would do .. Firstly I would use up all of the insurance money on investigations and if nothing was detected I would spend the rest on treatments, physio and maybe drugs if the vet thought it would help . After that I would move Lari into reasonably priced semi retirement livery with lots of turn out in the summer and a warm stable at night in the winter .. this kind of livery isn't expensive because you won't be needing arenas and indoor schools and solariums and horse walkers .
I would do this for one year and then re assess

If he wasn't happy or sound after that I would consider PTS

And then I would get another horse and try again xxxxxx

Thank you for your reply. The set up you describe is £450 a month. The out 24/7 365 days of the year is £175 a month.

I'm tempted to continue investigations. He doesn't look that unsound jn the school from the video i was sent but he was playing up for the guy so pain somewhere. I'm not of the opinion he's putting it on which was suggested to me. Like you say if that doesn't work I will have to reconsider. I just need to know what's bugging him.

He managed to do this to himself tonigjt in 5 mins turned out tonight! He's not the easiest. Only superficial!

 

[Bernster]

Been following your journey and like the others, was so hoping it would come right for you. It still might, so I’ll continue to send you good fortune vibes!

It’s a very personal decision - in my case, I put my mare out to grass livery and planned to re assess after a year. We’d had 3 issues and rehab over 3 years and I just felt we both needed a different approach. She never came fully right so she’s remained there ever since, enjoying a lovely life (she’s with a HHO member) and potting about the lanes. I’m able to have other horses though so whilst it doesn’t make financial sense, I can’t justify - not sure that’s the right word - (to myself) doing ‘anything else’. In your case, given the circs., I think I’d want to make a different decision, once I’d done whatever investigations, treatment and rehab I felt was warranted. Whether I could do that is another matter however!