Update on Lari

Birker2020

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I didn’t have very good news about Lari last night from the vet. The vet said he is really sore on his left SI which is what the physio had said as well as his back being sore under the saddle area. He hooned around in his paddock the one evening when I turned him out and I noticed he walked towards me and looked sore on his near hind but when I lunged him the next day he was fine, didn’t appear lame and there was no heat or swelling.

He went to the vet on the 12th August to be scoped for ulcers (none present) and whilst he was there I asked the vet to lunge him just to see if he could see anything but he didn’t find anything on the lunge, just said he looked the best he’d ever looked in front but not 100% on the right hind and to just crack on with the rider and we would see where this took us.

I first got the physio involved over a week ago when the pro rider noticed he was having problems moving through on a right circle and he was getting resistant. I provisionally booked the vet and the physio looked at him again three days later and he was still lame and very sore so the vet came out last night and he did a variety of tests. He was pleased with him on the straight concrete trot up and on flexions he was good on the fronts but not so good on the hinds, but nothing notable but on a circle he was toe dragging both hinds slightly and couldn’t maintain canter behind on the circle, kept swapping his legs so he was disunited.

We discussed at length the best course of action for him, and I was going to have his SI and his hocks medicated again but I got thrown a curve ball when it was mentioned about treating his suspensories. So, instead of having the hocks and SI medicated which isn’t a good time as we are away on holiday this Friday for a week (and he needs box rest for two days and in hand walking for two days and then a very small paddock gradually increasing in size) I decided to get him booked in with the vets after our holiday and get the suspensories nerve blocked and scanned. If they are shot, there is no point even contemplating an operation. The other vet that has been seeing him has expressed concern whether he is an ideal candidate for surgery given that he’s already a little low on one fetlock when moving on the lunge and with his other issues he doesn’t know what kind of prognosis it will bring.

My main concern is that the pro rider has been riding him 4-5 times a week in the school for 25-30 minute sessions as well as on other days walking him a few times around the building and other days on a couple of short hacks. She's ridden him a total of 25 times. And now he is very sore. Now whether that is as a result of the hooning around in the field that day or whether that is totally unrelated and he can’t tolerate work we don’t know at this stage.

If the suspensories are acute on scanning then we won’t be going ahead with the op and will just try and treat the problem conservatively with medicating the SI and hocks.

I still don’t know how much money I have left, the invoices are all over the place and the vet seemed to think the operation might cost £4 or £5k which is totally out of the question in that case as I only have £5k limit on each claim and when I spoke to the insurance they seemed keen to try and lump everything together even though I have been given claim numbers for hocks, coffin joints and SI already by the insurance company. I thought it was much less than that in cost and was originally told box rest was 3 weeks, now been told its six weeks.

I am contemplating giving up on him and retiring him or trying to get him in at the blood bank, the vet said he would only require re-medicating every 6 months if he is in work, otherwise he can live a totally pain free life at either place. He is only 11 and I really don’t feel that PTS is justifiable at this point in time but I've been assured that people would support my decision if I did go ahead and do this.

Its such a sad situation for such a lovely boy.

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Rumtytum

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There’s no disputing Lari is the most gorgeous boy, I feel so sorry for you and the situation. Perhaps when you are on holiday and physically taken out of the situation it will give you a little emotional space to gather your thoughts. You are a great, if a very unlucky, owner and whatever you decide will always be in your boy’s best interest.
 

Birker2020

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Thank you so much for your support and words of wisdom. It means the world to me. I had a good chat last night after the vet had gone with my physio friend who has treated Lari, trying to piece it all together and work out a way forward that is realistic given the situation.

Thinking about the reality of having a horse where a hoon in the field makes him lame, or when a rider has ridden him and he is sore rather makes me think we are fighting a losing battle but I need to have more facts I think.

I will be glad when we are away, Mum and I are meeting with the dementia assessment nurse on Thursday for the results of Mums dementia assessment which will verify what we already know but be tough to hear all the same.

I am longing to be on the beach and getting some sea air, it really helped last time with perspective and all that.
 

ycbm

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You've done your absolute damndest with this horse Birker, and you know that I would support whatever decision you make about his future.

I'm going to be blunt now, not to be hard or nasty but because i think it will help you to decide which way you want the coin to fall. My personal opinion is that you are throwing good money after bad to make any more effort to get him into regular work, or to diagnose or treat anything more than you have already treated. Your vet will obviously be happy to take your money until you say "enough is enough", almost bankrupting you in the meantime. Given that you suspect the SI injury was there when you bought him, there has to be only the tiniest chance that spending any more money will produce any better a result.

I hope you have a really lovely holiday and can get your mind around what happens now with your Mum and with Lari. I don't envy you either situation.
.
 

Birker2020

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You've done your absolute damndest with this horse Birker, and you know that I would support whatever decision you make about his future.

I'm going to be blunt now, not to be hard or nasty but because i think it will help you to decide which way you want the coin to fall. My personal opinion is that you are throwing good money after bad to make any more effort to get him into regular work, or to diagnose or treat anything more than you have already treated. Your vet will obviously be happy to take your money until you say "enough is enough", almost bankrupting you in the meantime. Given that you suspect the SI injury was there when you bought him, there has to be only the tiniest chance that spending any more money will produce any better a result.

I hope you have a really lovely holiday and can get your mind around what happens now with your Mum and with Lari. I don't envy you either situation.
.
Thank you. I need to establish how much I have left on each claim and then decide whether to continue up to the £5K amount on each claim so I am not spending my own money, if that makes sense. But I think we've reached the end of the road in all honesty.

When the vet said "his back is sore, but that's just the way his spine is and it always will be like that" and "continue him ticking over twice a week with the rider" I was kind of flummoxed by it all to be honest. I don't get why keeping him going with a rider when he is sore will be of any benefit to him, I'm surprised he hasn't been more objectionable to be honest. I am so confused by it all. I need to establish what he meant by the reason the back is sore, but we'd moved on to the next issue before my stressed brain could even begin to compute what he'd said. My mind races at 100 miles an hour and I struggle to take it all in.

I still can't believe how good he was for me when I went to try him out. I think he'd kind of reached a level of acceptance after being no doubt drilled by the pro rider for a few weeks, the same pro rider that was there when I went to view him.
 

Red-1

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I am sorry you are in this situation. I think that whatever you decide is good, and that you have thrown what you can at him.

However, I think the next few months may be effortful in time/energy/emotion to help your mother and because of that I think I would turn Lari away for now and concentrate on her. I did this with my horse when mum had difficulties, and there was nothing actually wrong with her (the horse). I just ran out of brain space/energy.

If the planets align, Lari may be better off next year, especially if he has whatever medicated he needs so he has the best chance to heal untouched. If the news for your mother is better, then I would spend more brain time/emotion on him, whatever that decision is.
 
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Widgeon

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I think I would turn Lari away for now and concentrate on her.

This sounds super sensible to me too. It sounds like you'd really benefit from a mental break after all the emotional energy you've needed to invest in him. I'm so sorry it's not better news, after all your work.

Apologies if this has already been done to death - I haven't followed all your threads - but is there any chance he could be kept ticking over as a nice hack? Straight lines and not being on a surface would presumably be much easier on his back and legs. But as I said, apologies if this has already been ruled out for any reason.
 

misst

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Birker I am so sorry you did not get better news. I know how hard you have tried for your boy.
Another vote for turning him away for a few weeks while you sort out mum and insurance and have a break. You will hopefully, as you say, get some perspective on this. Sometimes, I have found myself on a tredmill and just cannot see how to get off.
You may not be at that point but if that is where you find yourself there will be support on here as you know x
 

lme

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Birker, that sounds a hard situation with your mum and Lari. In your situation I would see where you are with insurance, get anything obvious (but non invasive) that would still be funded done, then stop insuring him and turn him away. I retired one of mine early because she had physical issues that meant she needed to be either in full work (which meant a pro riding her during the week when I couldn't) or no work. She is now a really happy horse who lives out in a small herd and costs me around 25% of what I was paying to keep her in work.
 

tda

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You've done your absolute damndest with this horse Birker, and you know that I would support whatever decision you make about his future.

I'm going to be blunt now, not to be hard or nasty but because i think it will help you to decide which way you want the coin to fall. My personal opinion is that you are throwing good money after bad to make any more effort to get him into regular work, or to diagnose or treat anything more than you have already treated. Your vet will obviously be happy to take your money until you say "enough is enough", almost bankrupting you in the meantime. Given that you suspect the SI injury was there when you bought him, there has to be only the tiniest chance that spending any more money will produce any better a result.

I hope you have a really lovely holiday and can get your mind around what happens now with your Mum and with Lari. I don't envy you either situation.
.
I think I agree with this.
Been there too with my mum x
 

Birker2020

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Thanks for your comments. Trouble is my insurance is due to end for this period of cover on 13th October. So unfortunately I won't be able to self fun after this time until I have saved up enough money to do so which could take me months. So anything that needs doing, sadly needs doing before this time.

I think at the very minimum I will get his hocks and SI medicated again as I have claims already open but I don't think the operation for the suspensories is feasible in his case anyway. And if he has this issue with his 'back conformation' which I've never been made aware of before, then I doubt it will make any difference. But at least it might make him more comfortable for retirement, looking at it realistically.

https://thehorse.com/156597/which-psd-horses-are-good-hind-limb-neurectomy-candidates/

  • Do not send horses with hyperextended hind-limb and hock conformation to surgery. “This conformation is known to significantly increase the risk of catastrophic failure of the suspensory apparatus following fasciotomy and neurectomy,” Watts said. “If this complication were to occur, the horse may require fetlock arthrodesis (fusing) … to survive long-term.”
The vet has already commented on his upright conformation, the angle of his hocks.
 

lme

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Honestly Birker, I would never do that operation anyway. Irrespective of hind limb conformation. I would rather medicate, give time off, rehab slowly and keep any work within my horse’s limits. We have a policy of not insuring any of ours. Our vets know we aren’t insured so there’s no pressure to rush to the most drastic treatment before that part of the horse is no longer insured.
 

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Birker I am sorry to read this. My mare with PSSM is a mess with hocks, SI and suspensory issues and couldn't stand up to work without getting sore. It wasn't the PSSM - I ran bloods regularly to test how working her was affecting her muscles - but just really bad luck with a tonne of stuff causing knock on effects elsewhere. I suspect hocks were her starting point and a vet who didn't want to medicate when she was a 6yo.

I have land now and she is happy enough as a pet and she only gets normal routine vet stuff. The drop in my stress and anxiety levels when I made the step to stop trying to "fix" her was significant. If you've got a tonne of other stuff going on in your life then it's no failure to take a breath and turn him away or find him a home at the blood bank.

You've been really unlucky, but take some time to think about yourself too - the stress of looking after a broken horse is hard
 

southerncomfort

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I'm sorry B, you just can't seem to catch a break with Lari. With your mum's health to worry about as well you must be completely emotionally drained.

You've got to do what you think is right, but don't forget that your mental health and well being is important too.

Please do consider turning him away and giving yourself a break.
 

Birker2020

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I'm sorry B, you just can't seem to catch a break with Lari. With your mum's health to worry about as well you must be completely emotionally drained.

You've got to do what you think is right, but don't forget that your mental health and well being is important too.

Please do consider turning him away and giving yourself a break.
Thanks. I've a doctors appointment the week I come back to go on anti anxiety medication. Was trying to fight going on additional meds as I've done so much work tapering the dosage (or trying to) of my pain meds I'm on, so going on something else isn't good but I'm starting to struggle again now all hope appears lost and I keep crying at the yard and at work and can't sleep. I've not been the gym this week either, just don't have the energy so I'm aware I'm slipping into another depression.

Being told 'your horse will always have a sore back' by the vets isn't going to persuade me to spend thousands more when there is no point even if its the insurance paying and not 'me' as such. I tried to talk to someone about it last night but feel their getting a bit fed up with my indecision which i can't blame them really, as i change my mind repeadedly throughout the day.

Knowing myself how debilitating and miserable a sore back has made me I cannot justify 'working my horse through it'. He's such a lovely kind boy, he doesn't deserve being in pain and as he is such a reactive horse, I don't want to have to deal with repercussions of another fall which could have the potential to have a life changing effect like the disc and s.i issues I've battled through previously. I will still get his s.i and hocks done to make him comfortable but i think that's going to be it.

My efforts will now be towards Mum and i think I'm going to try and rough him off come the spring ready for a nice retirement. I've battled enough and can't do it anymore. So glad to be going away to the IOW tomorrow for a week. I need some quality time with my OH without discussing Mum and the horse relentlessly. Now i just have to persuade him to my way of thinking.
 
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ycbm

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i think I'm going to try and rough him off come the spring ready for a nice retirement.

I don't understand this comment B, can't you rough him off now and save all the winter costs of stabling and bedding and all the upset of dealing with an unridden horse every day while you see others around you doing the stuff you want to be able to be doing?
.
 

Goldenstar

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I have these type of horses IME don’t do well turned away when it’s cold and wet.
It’s also a bit of waster of all the money and effort Birker has put in .
There’s no good way out of this Birker you have to do whats right for you in this extremely difficult situation .
If you turn away in needs be somewhere with the biggest fields and ideally undulating you can find to keep him moving .
 

ycbm

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I have these type of horses IME don’t do well turned away when it’s cold and wet.
It’s also a bit of waster of all the money and effort Birker has put in .
There’s no good way out of this Birker you have to do whats right for you in this extremely difficult situation .
If you turn away in needs be somewhere with the biggest fields and ideally undulating you can find to keep him moving .


You have your own place, Birker doesn't and this is going to cost her a lot of money. If he's being retired next year, then I would have thought the waste would be in spending more money than necessary keeping the horse in stabled livery this winter. Not to mention how painful B has described it being to see others in the stable doing all the things she wanted to be doing.


B, I echo what GS has said, you must do what's right for you.
 

AmyMay

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I don't understand this comment B, can't you rough him off now and save all the winter costs of stabling and bedding and all the upset of dealing with an unridden horse every day while you see others around you doing the stuff you want to be able to be doing?
.

This.
 

Birker2020

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You have your own place, Birker doesn't and this is going to cost her a lot of money. If he's being retired next year, then I would have thought the waste would be in spending more money than necessary keeping the horse in stabled livery this winter. Not to mention how painful B has described it being to see others in the stable doing all the things she wanted to be doing.


B, I echo what GS has said, you must do what's right for you.
I can't rough him off before winter, there is not enough time and I'm on holiday tomorrow for a week.

He needs his shoes removing, his rugs removing and his feed removing. I can't do that right before winter as its not fair, its a process which will take several weeks. I also have yet to find a retirement home for him. I am happy to keep him until the spring and then find retirement or get him in the blood bank for the Spring intake if this is possible.

I am not bothered about stabling costs, I never have been. The bit about watching everyone else having fun in easier through the winter anyway.
 

tristar

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i think you are right B.

come spring you will have accepted whatever will be and have come to terms with whatever decisions you

make

also the transition can be done gradually as the days improve and with no pressure

you will still have your horse to care for and love in the winter, to see you through as we all know you think so much of him and enjoy seeing him

at least whilst dealing your mom that will be a `stable`! ongoing part of life that need not give constant concerns as to his welfare, and leave plenty of time to find livery if that how it goes
 
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