Urgent advice needed

[motherof2beasts!]

I see. I know it's hard to think about, but the responsible thing to do would be to PTS, not rehome. BTW the thread on the other forum is still up.

I know what the responsible thing to do is thank you.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

I’ve checked my ad is not up as I said deleted as soon as I wrote it, must be someone else. On mine was not for rehome was for companion for 1 gelding with me paying all costs but as I said it was deleted anyhow.

 

[Wishfilly]

Just seems very odd, because the situation is very, very similar.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Just seems very odd, because the situation is very, very similar.

send it to me via message please?

 

[Wishfilly]

send it to me via message please?

Sent.

 

[PurBee]

Makes me feel sick even thinking about it, so doubt I will but I just cant put him through another hospital stay , I wanted him to have a nice peaceful retirement but he is just having one thing after another. Since August he has spondyltys, severe ostea arthritis in back , Arthritis and injury in stifle, cough, bad stomach now this riggy behaviour. He isn't a good doer and needs 2 feeds a day, will not be stabled (very had to sedate him 3 times to get him in for xray) and now this riggy/dangerous behaviour. Oh and he has a hay allergy and soaking and steaming doesn't seem to work so on the horsehage. I just wish he could have a few months or even weeks without issues. All of my others (touch wood) haven't needed the vet or have rarely bar the yearly vaccination and health check, feel like I may aswell get my wages paid directly to the vet! But also I love him despite all his issues !

which horsehage is he on?

they do regular ryegrass, high fibre ryegrass (cut later, lower sugars/protein) and timothy.

With regular ryegrass my 2 hot bloods, gelding too, get agitated, easily spooked, etc, but the high fibre ryegrass from marksway horsehage they do much better on. I actually prefer buying a pallet of high fibre and a pallet of timothy and mix the 2 together -thats best for them.

Actually all makes of standard ryegrass haylage my two get ‘hot’ on - with my gelding being an absolute bolshy nutter, whether its higher fructan levels, or higher sugar/protein - im unsure exactly, but its a night/day difference when i give late cut ryegrass haylage and timothy haylage.

I wish marksway did a timothy/high fibre ryegrass mix in 1 bag! (Ive asked them ?)


Regarding hormones, memory may be failing me but a thread ages ago there was mention of hormone shots for horses behaviour. Ask your vet about this - would estrogen shots help - theyre generally calming - or progesterone? Your vet would know more regarding this route.

but diet-wise- you can jiggle a few things and make a huge difference.

many plants have phytoestrogens - clover, legumes generally, including alfalfa, soy. The research leans to these phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors in the body and can ‘mimic’ estrogen - yet also other research shows that these phytoestrogens from plants dont do everything natural body-made estrogen does. However, the big risk with phytoestrogens is the body detects the estrogen receptors of the cells are full, because phytoestrogens from alfalfa, clover are sitting in the receptors, and so the body stops making NATURAL estrogen itself. The signalling to make a hormone depends on the receptor signalling To the pituitary which then sends signals to the endocrine glands to make the hormone. So if a ‘fake estrogen’ from plants is sitting in those estrogen receptors, the body stops making its own natural estrogen.

With a male horse obviously testosterone levels are higher than mares, even if they lose their testicles the adrenal glands can manufacture hormones - happens in humans once we hit menopause/andropause.

So if youre feeding alfalfa i would stop this , as an experiment, as it *may* be acting as an estrogen, but also *may* not be acting as a full natural estrogen (which is a ‘calming’ hormone), and be creating natural estrogen production problems.
(male and females all produce all the same hormones , and require all hormones, just the gender difference means different amounts are produced.)

With behaviour as he has, its worth experimenting with ditching the alfalfa soy and clovers, peas from the diet.
Sometimes these helps calm a horse, but sometimes issues arise.

The issue also with alfalfa is the protein in it are different to grass hay proteins. So alfalfa can cause digestive issues and agitate all genders of horses. most proteins from grasses are digested in the foregut - yet alfalfa have significant protein types that can only be broken down by bacteria in the hindgut. The average horse doesnt develop/grow these hinndgut bacteria overnight and so will have hindgut distress (belly ache, wind, bloating). So it needs very minimal, slow introduction to give the hindgut time to develop hindgut protein bacteria. Theres protein in alfalfa thats foregut digested too.

Also alfalfa has really high calcium levels - so if he’s on 2kg+ per day without that calcium being balanced with phosphorus foods (grains) that excess calcium is not idea for a horse with bone fusing issues, excess bone growths - ask your vet about this aspect too.

To reduce testosterone levels to reduce behaviour as you describe - i’d try dried mint - in his bowl food - use speedibeet, something non heating - mint studies show reduce Testosterone levels in animals and women so it seems to be a good herb to try for mammals with high testosterone.

Also try fresh ground linseed/flaxseed (same thing) - the lignans in flaxseed bind to testosterone and excrete it from the body.

Vegetable oil - polyunsaturated fats are associated with lower T levels - worth a try but i’d try the mint and lots of flaxseed first - even try flax oil as its got loads of omega 3 - anti-inflammatory = pain relief.
We’ve just come out of winter and if he hasnt had much grass this winter, and just been on haylage, with no additional omega 3 from flax - he could be low in omega 3.

You’ve had rotten luck with this horse, but its worth trying a diet tweak, as it sounds like he cant get any worse - yet theres things in the diet you describe that could be adding to his behaviour issues, so worth a try from that perspective.

 

[PurBee]

Update - he ls not a rig only 0.01 hormone so very low. He is on rig calm and back with the herd. The vet has advised he has one last summer then PTS before winter as his X-rays on back were significant and he’ll be in some discomfort.

sorry - i hadnt seen this posted update - very sad for you - its at least better to know his back is so bad than to just guess and have to pts because of dangerous behaviour with unknown cause. You are doing what you can to help him, well done for trying so hard.

wishing you strength going through the next few months *big hug*

 

[skint1]

I was going to write about my mostly retired gelding who turned into a devil over this winter after I turned him out with my mare, but I have since read your update, really so sorry, your boy is very lucky to have you x

 

[little_critter]

Never known another person whose horse has it and so little out there about it!

It does seem to be getting more common (or we are getting better at diagnosing it?). I was also told it’s rare but since my mare I’ve heard of a few others being diagnosed.

 

[Birker2020]

Update - The vet has advised he has one last summer then PTS before winter as his X-rays on back were significant and he’ll be in some discomfort.

So sorry to hear this. I've never understood this 'last summer thing' myself as horses don't particuarly care what the weather is doing or if the sun is on their back, they don't think like us, it's more for us I think, but as long as you can keep him comfortable on bute until such a time he will be PTS it will give you some time to be together and make some memories.

This is probably what I'd do given the circumstances.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

FYI, there are quite a few people who are on both HHO and the tack room on Mumsnet - it’s not that hard to join the dots ...