Urgent help required! Pls respond by 16 Dec 2011

[FionaM12]

But that's the point! As Monkers (I think it was Monkers?) has said further up the thread, they are NOT energy efficient! They actually USE electricity for startup and are so expensive to build in the first place, where's the benefit?
Oh did you decide to move to that other yard?

I'm not sure of my facts re wind turbines, so am not really joining the wider debate. I'm only saying that if they are environmentally useful then I disagree with the OP's original objection that we object on the grounds that there's a bridle path nearby.

I do think peoples' concerns about the environment and climate change are valid.

Re the other yard, I'm now on the waiting list of two yards. The one I told you about would be my prefered choice, but there's no saying whether a place will come up. I've since found another yard which hasn't quite such good facilities or is as good value for money, but would give turnout and has a flloodlit menage. YO is hoping a place will be available soon.

Meanwhile, Mollie's going loopy with no turnout. I don't know how the other horses at the farm cope (many aren't exercised at all) but it certainly doesn't suit Mollie.

 

[Loopypony]

I'm afraid i'm with the majority here - I am in full support of more wind farms.

The stud I work on has a turbine on the farm - in one of the paddocks in fact! Are the horses bothered by it? Nope! Never have been either!! The one single turbine provides power to the barn, foaling barn, cattle shed and bunglaow!

Times are changing and people need to face the facts that we just CANNOT exhaust the already limited fossil fuels...

 

[PingPongPony]

Well it is refreshing to hear this I was very similar when I was younger. I got so upset once at the amount of rubbish on the pavement by a school that I made my mum take me with bin bags and rubber gloves to pick it all up I was a sad kid!
What are you interested in doing in the future? You sound like you should pursue this as a career! Lots of people now seem interested in saving the world, but very few will actually take steps to do anything about it.
As for the post about 'changing the world' yes, that is exactly what needs to happen, but it is easier said than done!
FWIW, things ARE happening, I am in my final year, and am doing tonnes of reading lately, to support my research project and some of the stuff I am reading is very encouraging. Despite the population rising, which is a separate issue really, emissions are gradually decreasing, etc, and the policies and regulations we have in place are starting to take affect. That doesn't mean we can all sit back and think it's sorted however, we still need a long term solution to our energy needs, and personally I don't think anything proposed so far is going to be suitable. I think something far more advanced is the answer, perhaps nuclear fusion?!

as strongly as i feel about this, i will try to do something but from my home as this is not what i'd like to do as a career, i either want to go into forensic science or veterinary science, which, i shall decide after my A levels (3 sciences and psychology - shouldbe fun! )

 

[Evergreen]

I do understand your concerns, OP, but to be truthful it really annoys me that so many people object to wind turbines. What hope does the planet have if green issues meet obstruction at every turn? I think that the horses would be spooky to start off with but would soon get used to the turbines.

 

[mik]

We have no problem at all with them here in Andalucia.

 

[tazzle]

Nah, they're so concerned with saving the planet they're walking or cycling everywhere don't you know! Anyway, it's cold in here - I'm off to turn the heating on again for a few hours......must be cold in those yurts....

well if everybody did just a little perhaps what little fossil fuels we have will last a little longer and all our children and grandchildren (including any that you and merry crisis might have) might , just might , have the energy resources they need to survive...... even if it is derived from wind turbines / wave farms, solar panels or any other alternatives.

and yes...... I do walk to and from work ( 40 mins each way) leaving the car on the driveway
I don't have a 4 * 4
I try to be energy efficient with gas and electricity

Mocking those who discuss things in an informative manner shows a certain lack of maturity and little or no empathy / awareness of issues that effect every single one of us and will do so with increasing severity.

 

[FionaM12]

well if everybody did just a little perhaps what little fossil fuels we have will last a little longer and all our children and grandchildren (including any that you and merry crisis might have) might , just might , have the energy resources they need to survive...... even if it is derived from wind turbines / wave farms, solar panels or any other alternatives.

and yes...... I do walk to and from work ( 40 mins each way) leaving the car on the driveway
I don't have a 4 * 4
I try to be energy efficient with gas and electricity

Mocking those who discuss things in an informative manner shows a certain lack of maturity and little or no empathy / awareness of issues that effect every single one of us and will do so with increasing severity.

Well said.

 

[tazzle]

thank you

it does really hit home re coal especially because when I was a little girl I grew up in an area with loads of pits mining coal... my dad and uncle were miners and everyone knew someone that was a miner.

We thought coal would last forever. How wrong. There are so few pits now and its within my living memory that these have been depleted (and I am still walking without a zimmer ). It is frightening.

 

[superpony]

I am with many others in the support of wind farms.

I am a final year Geography student and people have this stigma about wind farms.. but infact when you get underneath them they are very quiet. I also do not think they are a 'blight' on the landscape and they also don't seem to affect horses in my experience.. they get used to them like anything! As others have said fossil fuels are running out and soon our options will be renewable energy (wind, solar, hydro etc) or nuclear.

I would much rather have a windfarm then a nuclear power station!!

 

[Monkers]

I would much rather have a windfarm then a nuclear power station!!

And there's the problem! You would need thousands of turbines to equal the same energy output of a nuclear power station. Unfortunately, Nuclear power is the only logical, efficient, cost effective solution we have at the moment. Doesn't mean I like it though.

 

[Monkers]

If anyone is interested, I recently prepared a 2 minute film showing the shadow effects of 125m turbines placed 200m from a bridleway. The first part of the footage is actual shadow throw at an existing develpoment, which has then been super-imposed onto a bridleway in the scond part of the film.

This is an actual proposed development that now has planning permission, so these turbines will be built.

Some of you who think horses will cope with turbines on a bridlepath may think again after seeing this video, especially the shadow effect.

There is most certainly significant noise 200m from a turbine and directly underneath them too. The noise is reasonable on the film, but specialist sound equipment was not used during filming, so does not represent the full sound and is much quieter than actually experienced.

I cannot post the film on here for various reasons, but I am happy to forward a link to anyone who sends me a PM.

 

[martlin]

Well, all I have to say, as unpopular as it might be on a horse forum... horse riding is not essential, but producing energy is.
I'm a great believer in horses just getting on with things.

 

[dressagelove]

Well, all I have to say, as unpopular as it might be on a horse forum... horse riding is not essential, but producing energy is.
I'm a great believer in horses just getting on with things.

Very well put! I like your attitude

 

[FionaM12]

If anyone is interested, I recently prepared a 2 minute film showing the shadow effects of 125m turbines placed 200m from a bridleway. The first part of the footage is actual shadow throw at an existing develpoment, which has then been super-imposed onto a bridleway in the scond part of the film.

Some of you who think horses will cope with turbines on a bridlepath may think again after seeing this video, especially the shadow effect.

Thing is Monkers, everyone here who does ride next to turbines say their horses aren't bothered. And if they were, then they could ride somewhere else or aclimatise their horses. It's not a valid arguement against wind turbines.

Well, all I have to say, as unpopular as it might be on a horse forum... horse riding is not essential, but producing energy is.
I'm a great believer in horses just getting on with things.

Exactly.

 

[RutlandH2O]

I have done extensive research into the efficiancy of onshore wind turbines, before this I supported wind farms and thought they were a great idea........

They are hopeless. In our part of the country they run at 15% efficiency on a good day.

They cost a fortune to manufacture and and are extremely polluting during the manufacturing process. Unfortunately much of this manufacture is in China, where the government don't give a toss about pollution and the effect it has on the local people, let alone the rest of the world.

They will never offset the CO2 used to make and install them during their 25 year life span. Each turbine uses thousands of tonnes of concrete in its base, giving off tonnes of C02.

If you see them turning during cold, still weather, then they are being powered by the national grid. They have to keep moving, or the mechanism is damaged if frozen solid.

They are nothing more than political posturing. The government have to meet renewable energy targets, and wind farms are the current flavour of the month. Land owners here are paid 16k PER YEAR PER TURBINE of your hard earned cash.

Next time you look at a wind turbine and feel all warm and fuzzy inside, just remember the cost to the tax payer and to the enviroment, because enviromentally friendly, they most certainly are not!

^^^
This

 

[tazzle]

have no doubt monkers that you would indeed be able to find some horses that would spook at this sort of shadow ..... just as I could produce evidence using a local horse to me that bikes scare horses so much it almost got several people killed.

That however does not prove that ALL horses are scared of bikes beacuse as we all know we can indeed habituate horses to these things that can either creep up behind them or rush past like the wind ( both actions have their effects )

Actually because the shadow is a predicably regular movement even if a horse was inititally spooked its possible to habituate if one is willing to take the time and is sufficiently motivated to do so.




and actually we are just not "thinking" they will cope ....... loads are saying they ARE coping





"They will never offset the CO2 used to make and install them during their 25 year life span. Each turbine uses thousands of tonnes of concrete in its base, giving off tonnes of C02"

can you explain this .... its seems illogical in that you are saying cO2 is * used up * to make the turbine then saying it *gives off* CO2 ..... lol does one cancel out the other .....

 

[Monkers]

have no doubt monkers that you would indeed be able to find some horses that would spook at this sort of shadow ..... just as I could produce evidence using a local horse to me that bikes scare horses so much it almost got several people killed.

That however does not prove that ALL horses are scared of bikes beacuse as we all know we can indeed habituate horses to these things that can either creep up behind them or rush past like the wind ( both actions have their effects )

Actually because the shadow is a predicably regular movement even if a horse was inititally spooked its possible to habituate if one is willing to take the time and is sufficiently motivated to do so.




and actually we are just not "thinking" they will cope ....... loads are saying they ARE coping





"They will never offset the CO2 used to make and install them during their 25 year life span. Each turbine uses thousands of tonnes of concrete in its base, giving off tonnes of C02"

can you explain this .... its seems illogical in that you are saying cO2 is * used up * to make the turbine then saying it *gives off* CO2 ..... lol does one cancel out the other .....

Sorry, I probably didn't explain that very well, I posted that comment late last night! I was referring to the carbon footprint. Large amounts of C02 are produced during the manufacture of turbines and also in the manufacture of concrete and in the transport of both. The carbon footprint of each turbine is huge.


As for the rest of your post, every wind farm is different and the exact location of a turbine in relation to a bridleway is important. For example if a bridleway runs north - south and there are turbines to the east and west, shadows will be thrown in the mornings and evenings. Shadow density varies and at 200m they are at 100% density at the blade base. My film shows shadows thrown from a turbine 450m away and the shadows are still very dense.

I am not against renewable energy, but onshore wind turbines are just not the solution, regardless of whether or not they scare horses!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I think you'll find that a lot of young people who are growing up with the wind farms and who are constantly talked at about the environment, these people will support the wind farms more, which in a way makes sense as we're the ones that will be around wind farms for longer. I'm 16 but feel very strongly about environmental issues, i try to think of the bigger picture not just the typical 'oh no it doesn't look pretty'. We all say we're horse lovers, well, if we keep burning the fossil fuels at this rate our lovely horses will be breathing in more pollution than clean air, surely that will affect their health and lifespan, it'll also affect our health and life span. I guess i'm also slightly selfish, my dad always says to me 'you gotta die of something so whats the point of a balanced diet and exercise, recycling and all the 'stuff' ' to which i reply ' well dad no offence but you're kinda getting old now so no you won't care as you probably won't be here as long as me, but guess what, i care as i will have to live in the mess left by the older generations that could not care less as they have to die of something'. Yes me and my dad argue a LOT about environmental and political issues, and everything else that happens to annoy me or him the point is, the wind farms may not be that efficient BUT every wind turbine no matter how inefficient WILL produce some energy even if its just about enough to power an ipod for 5 seconds HOWEVER this still means that that little bit of energy did not have to be made in any other way which would be more harmful even if it was only harmful to 1/20th of a flea, thats still saving at least 0.0001% of the overall outcome right? And as tesco says 'every little helps!'

Very commendable but I think it is wrong to say "older generations that could not care less" . I am 41 and have worked protecting the environment most of my career, organisations such as Greenpeace have been around for decades and legislation to protect the environment has been around for many years. e.g the Contol of Pollution Act 1974, Environmental Protection Act 1990 well before you were born - there is legislation that predates that but I can't specifically remember. Certainly you become more cynical with age but you also realise that there is more to it than just a will to protect the environment and actually what you will find is businesses will push their "green ideas" and do not consider the wider consequences many are just in it for the money.

Overall I support green energy but in reality I think we will need to reach the brink before we change our ways and I can see a return to a much simpler way of life in the future because we quite simply won't be able to sustain the lives we currently have unless someone achieves Nuclear Fusion. Merry Xmas everyone!

 

[Holly Hocks]

Mocking those who discuss things in an informative manner shows a certain lack of maturity and little or no empathy / awareness of issues that effect every single one of us and will do so with increasing severity.

Don't Greenpeace have a forum you can join?

If you read my post properly - you will read that I don't have a problem with them regarding horses - I already said that I don't think the horses will be affected by them - I don't agree with them as they are expensive to manufacture and install as per Monkers comments and totally ineffective - one on a farm yes, might work, but most people don't live on farms with endless land to put their windmills on, therefore they cannot be effective enough to supply this country with the amount of power required! In fact Monkers is the only person on here who has actually contributed EVIDENCE regarding wind turbines as opposed to OPINION!

 

[FionaM12]

Very commendable but I think it is wrong to say "older generations that could not care less" . I am 41 and have worked protecting the environment most of my career, organisations such as Greenpeace have been around for decades and legislation to protect the environment has been around for many years.

True. I was made aware of environmental issues in the 1960s. My older sister Sue was an environmental campaigner long before it was fashionable, after reading a book called "Silent Spring" which changed her life. Sue went on to get a couple of appropriate degrees and work all over the world, and her expertise and passion rubbed off on the rest of the family. My Mum, at 83, will argue the importance of saving the planet and the effects of climate change with anyone who'll listen!

It's not just the young who care.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

In fact Monkers is the only person on here who has actually contributed EVIDENCE regarding wind turbines as opposed to OPINION!

Actually its not evidence. A lot of this has already been covered on previous wind turbine threads so anyone interested can take a look. My own expert is currently playing with twirlies in Denmark, so anyone who has a question he can help with, feel free to pm me, he's pretty amenable.

 

[FionaM12]

Actually its not evidence. A lot of this has already been covered on previous wind turbine threads so anyone interested can take a look. My own expert is currently playing with twirlies in Denmark, so anyone who has a question he can help with, feel free to pm me, he's pretty amenable.

I agree that what Monkers has said is no more valid than what anyone else has.

Saying "I've done extensive research" implies a scientific/engineering background and post-grad work. But without actual evidence and documentation it could equally mean hearsay down the pub and the use of Google.

 

[tazzle]

Don't Greenpeace have a forum you can join?

If you read my post properly - you will read that I don't have a problem with them regarding horses - I already said that I don't think the horses will be affected by them - I don't agree with them as they are expensive to manufacture and install as per Monkers comments and totally ineffective - one on a farm yes, might work, but most people don't live on farms with endless land to put their windmills on, ! In fact Monkers is the only person on here who has actually contributed EVIDENCE regarding wind turbines as opposed to OPINION!

I did read your post properly as it was not what you said about the horses that is the issue ...... you were being rude regarding people who are concerned about the environment and actually want to do something about it.

I do not have sufficient knowledge to argue one way or the other as to how efficient or otherwise each of the alternatives is ... and of those who say they KNOW or have evidence one can almost always find contradictory evidence. Very rare is anything a matter of fact in this respect, almost everything is opinion based on evaulation of evidence that can be read several ways depending on ones preconceptions / knowledge / experience. ...... and financial implications


What I KNOW is that all fuel has its costs ..... I have stood with my family at a pit head when the pit below was on fire and finding out that seven men on my dads shift would be coming out in body bags ( well if they found the remains they would). Somehow the warmth generated by our coal fire that night had one heck of a high price on it.

Whether pits were closed because of it not being cost effective or whether they have run out, well I guess few people know for sure ... but for sure there are not as many working pits these days !


with regard to this comment

"therefore they cannot be effective enough to supply this country with the amount of power required"

well probably they are not but if we have run out of coal and oil etc and another chernobyl in our country kinda puts us off nuclear power stations then we WILL all have to cut down our demands on fuel ....... maybe we better start getting used to cutting down now.

 

[Merry Crisis]

I did read your post properly as it was not what you said about the horses that is the issue ...... you were being rude regarding people who are concerned about the environment and actually want to do something about it.

I do not have sufficient knowledge to argue one way or the other as to how efficient or otherwise each of the alternatives is ... and of those who say they KNOW or have evidence one can almost always find contradictory evidence. Very rare is anything a matter of fact in this respect, almost everything is opinion based on evaulation of evidence that can be read several ways depending on ones preconceptions / knowledge / experience. ...... and financial implications


What I KNOW is that all fuel has its costs ..... I have stood with my family at a pit head when the pit below was on fire and finding out that seven men on my dads shift would be coming out in body bags ( well if they found the remains they would). Somehow the warmth generated by our coal fire that night had one heck of a high price on it.

Whether pits were closed because of it not being cost effective or whether they have run out, well I guess few people know for sure ... but for sure there are not as many working pits these days !


with regard to this comment

"therefore they cannot be effective enough to supply this country with the amount of power required"

well probably they are not but if we have run out of coal and oil etc and another chernobyl in our country kinda puts us off nuclear power stations then we WILL all have to cut down our demands on fuel ....... maybe we better start getting used to cutting down now.

We havent run out of oil, I had a delivery this afternoon.

 

[tazzle]

We havent run out of oil, I had a delivery this afternoon.

well I sincerely hope any offspring you have, or may have in the future, will be able to say the same thing ( or any substitute fuel if they can actually afford it) in 20 years time !

 

[shadowboy]

Id also like to point out that coal fired power stations only run on 32% efficiency anyway. So wind turbines are no worse! the most efficient power station is DRAX and that's only 40%

 

[PingPongPony]

True. I was made aware of environmental issues in the 1960s. My older sister Sue was an environmental campaigner long before it was fashionable, after reading a book called "Silent Spring" which changed her life. Sue went on to get a couple of appropriate degrees and work all over the world, and her expertise and passion rubbed off on the rest of the family. My Mum, at 83, will argue the importance of saving the planet and the effects of climate change with anyone who'll listen!

It's not just the young who care.

If you read back i did say that some older people and the comment about 'older generations' its just used agains my dad in an argument, to shush him really

 

[cptrayes]

We havent run out of oil, I had a delivery this afternoon.

You need to do some research! The world is fast running out of oil. And since we use it to make our clothes, fertilize our crops, heat our homes, run our cars and practically everything else we do, we are in deep shiite unless we learn how to make do without it.

MAJOR oil field finds are announced regularly. Check them out. A MAJOR oil field find these days will supply the world for 14 days or less, and that's before China and India have got anywhere near us in oil consumption per head of population.

Make the most of your heating oil while you can still afford it.

 

[Laura1812]

well my horses share their yard and view with a turbine and have never batted an eyelid at it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am so pleased that you all think that these turbines are wonderful, there will be no problems in your neck of the wood when they want another wind farm as you wont object. Good, it will save Cumbria from any more of the monsterous things.

We already have one wind farm in our neck of the woods, it adds to the landscape, as do the 4 power-stations which we can also see. There are several smaller single turbines which we hack past, none of our horses has ever bothered about them and I haven't heard of any others that have. But then as others have said, our horses have had to get used to low-flying aircraft, including fixed-wing, helicopters, even those which land at the near-by hotel, hot-air balloons which have been known to come up the valley and appear just in front of us.
The latest turbine was just being delivered and erected as I was hacking a few months ago, my horse wasn't at all bothered by the turbine, the tractor, the low-loader or even the road-works a couple of yards further on.
One of local turbines blew over in the wind recently!