Vet permission - they dont pay the bill

horserider said:
Severe mud fever can sometimes be very difficult to treat. Your vets can't just prescribe a wonder cream and make it go away, some infections are very stubborn. I do wonder if your expectations are unrealistic. However, you sound as though you no longer have any confidence in them, maybe rightly, so why not change practice?
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This 100% my mare had mud fever when i got her and it took months of treatment, including steroid injections. The issue with the expensive creams is if there is a licensed animal version they cant give you a human equivalent even if its cheaper by law so ask for a script and see what you can find. There is no miracle cure for bad mud fever im afraid and it takes time and patience.
 
My chiropractor is also a vet and very well respected.

I have my horses checked every six months and as need be during the competitive season. As town vet knows my chiropractor very well I do not ring him ,I just txt him to say Jose is coming to see """""horse.

Again because Jose is a vet he can if need be sedate a horse.

There are certain conditions that would not be appropriate for a physio, chiropractor or others to treat without knowing the horses full history.
 
Jen_Cots said:
If it helps a human physio shouldn't see you without letting your doctor know, I'm not so sure they "ask the vets permission" as much as inform them they are treating the horse

I see your frustration, but I think that's your vet rather than the back person.

Not true! I have consulted sports physios and chiropractors loads of times and never once have I been asked my doctor`s details.
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And ,by the way, I would be wanting the vet to do cultures on whatever possible secondary infection the horse may have,so that the next lot of antibiotics hit the spot.
 
Chaos said:
Hey,
We need vets permission as it is a legal requirement because there are contra-indications to treatments. For example massage should not be performed on a horse that has undiagnosed lameness.
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If the above is true, OP, then a back person should know better! If this person has treated your horse before, then did you not notify the vet then?

I honestly don't see what the problem is. I notified my vet when my ponies received a massage - it's just standard practice and costs nowt!
 
My vet will not give permission for an outside person to treat my horses unless he has been consulted on the original condition. This is perfectly reasonable to me, how can he give permission for something he has not seen?

I did do a bit of self diagnosis on one of my horses and rang vet to ask if a McTimoney could come out (vet knew nothing about the problem at this point) and had to hold the phone away from my ear :eek::D I think the conversation started "So you're a vet now..." :) As it happens McTimoney never came out, horse had to go in for x-rays and is now retired. I was wandering off course when I bypassed the vet, not sure what I was thinking of tbh. Ear bashing fully deserved in my case.

Re the mud fever, it is a shame dermobion isn't available any more, I found hibiscrub a bit harsh as well. I can understand your frustration as your horse has a lot going on but vets do not have a magic wand and the healing can drag on a bit. If you lose faith in your vet then you will have to change.
 
RebelRebel said:
My vet will not give permission for an outside person to treat my horses unless he has been consulted on the original condition. This is perfectly reasonable to me, how can he give permission for something he has not seen?

I did do a bit of self diagnosis on one of my horses and rang vet to ask if a McTimoney could come out (vet knew nothing about the problem at this point) and had to hold the phone away from my ear :eek::D I think the conversation started "So you're a vet now..." :) As it happens McTimoney never came out, horse had to go in for x-rays and is now retired. I was wandering off course when I bypassed the vet, not sure what I was thinking of tbh. Ear bashing fully deserved in my case.

Re the mud fever, it is a shame dermobion isn't available any more, I found hibiscrub a bit harsh as well. I can understand your frustration as your horse has a lot going on but vets do not have a magic wand and the healing can drag on a bit. If you lose faith in your vet then you will have to change.
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I would not use your vet simple I am experianced enough to know the difference between a competion horse needing regular physio during hard work and an issue ,the physio I use would speak to the vet if they found anything worrying it is in fact how we picked up an older horse showing very early signs of kissing spines it was showing no symptoms in its work but on its regular physio session the physio felt a difference consulted the vet very subtle changes where found on X-ray so we where able to treat quickly.
I would however be very cautious about using mctimothy or Bowen therapists I have heard about and seen myself very unprofessional behaviour I prefer a equine physios.
I also mourn the loss of the tub of Dermobian .
 
shysmum said:
Mud fever = pig oil and sulphur asap. £25 ebay, delivered very quickly, sussex cobs. Bute in the meantime.

Back person = by law they have to ask for vet permission. This is for your horse's protection.
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Would you really advocate putting pig oil and sulphur on open wounds, pouring blood? I would have thought it unadvisable. Great if scabs or' undamaged skin'. What do those with vet knowledge advise on that?
 
HappyHooves said:
I think Dermobian is now banned!
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It is not banned, if you have an old tube its perfectly legal (but getting on and out of date!)

However the license was not renewed for animal use, primarily because it was banned in racing, and FEI. So the demand was lower, Ireland's license expired later, however Australia still has it under the brand name "dermapred"
http://www.troylab.com.au/products.php?tid=1&iid=26&pid=136

However none of this helps us as its illegal to import from Oz.

Shame some drug company doesn't pay to renew it, as even at £150 a pot I think it would sell (but I have no idea how much a license costs, so probably not economic as otherwise they would have done it already....)

Maybe we should all lobby Troy labs to bring it to the UK?
 
Goldenstar said:
I would however be very cautious about using mctimothy or Bowen therapists I have heard about and seen myself very unprofessional behaviour I prefer a equine physios.
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I'm really surprised to hear a person as apparently experienced as yourself say that, as McTimoney is highly respected in professional circles.

You must be particularly unlucky in your area because the biggest vet practices in my area all work with a McTimoney therapist who has a large client base of professional competition and racing yards.
 
Yup that's just my experiance and that's what you have to do be guided by your experiance with these things.
I like it if whoever I use has a close working relationship with the vet I use as it makes it easier that's very important I like to feel the vet trusts whoever I am using to get on with what they are good at until there's an issue that needs veterinary imput.
Round here that's a equine physio .
 
I have used nearly every "ist" there is and I have found the equine physiotherapist to be the best.

As for informing/asking the vet before someone else treats the horse, that is only good sense. I have just heard of someone whose horse was treated for weeks for a back problem (and I wondered if it had been seen by a vet first), only for eventually an abscess in both back feet was discovered. A vet, looking at the whole picture, would maybe have diagnosed that much earlier rather than the poor horse hobbling round for weeks and weeks.
 
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I was reading through it and it's got me wondering..

I'm planning on getting a McTimoney Chiropractor out to see my horses soon, just for a check more then anything. Do I need the vets 'permission' for this? I thought you did, but I was talking to somebody recently about this who told me that for them you don't.

Our vets probably wouldn't 'know' our horses per se as we've only needed them to come out to give them their jabs (touch wood!) - would they want to look at the horses to ensure the McTimoney Chiro is ok to come?

Also, would the vets be able to recommend somebody? I've seen an advert in our local tackshop, but I'm struggling to find out information about this particular person, and I'd prefer to have references to be honest!
 
What I do is telephone the vets and tell them, rather than ask them. What the chiro wants to know that there are no underlying conditions that the horse has that could be made worse, which is why they want you to check with the vet first. A good equine vet practice should have a list of people they work with and who they would recommend. If they know the horse and see it they shouldn't necessarily need to come and see it, unless it is an ongoing problem. If it is just a check over, performance thing mine have never bothered to come out, they just say thanks for letting us know.
 
CatStew said:
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I was reading through it and it's got me wondering..

I'm planning on getting a McTimoney Chiropractor out to see my horses soon, just for a check more then anything. Do I need the vets 'permission' for this? I thought you did, but I was talking to somebody recently about this who told me that for them you don't.

Our vets probably wouldn't 'know' our horses per se as we've only needed them to come out to give them their jabs (touch wood!) - would they want to look at the horses to ensure the McTimoney Chiro is ok to come?

Also, would the vets be able to recommend somebody? I've seen an advert in our local tackshop, but I'm struggling to find out information about this particular person, and I'd prefer to have references to be honest!
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Ours just asks that you ring the vet before she comes. I've used mctimoney and physio's without the vet seeing the horse, it just enables the vet to know who is treating the horse. Chances are, he knows the practitioner well.

Try doing a search on here to see if the person you're thinking of using is recommended.
 
horserider said:
Ours just asks that you ring the vet before she comes. I've used mctimoney and physio's without the vet seeing the horse, it just enables the vet to know who is treating the horse. Chances are, he knows the practitioner well.

Try doing a search on here to see if the person you're thinking of using is recommended.
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Thank you
 
Fuciderm ( dog cream) iv had for my horses sweetitch. £16 a tube. £37 is a joke. What's that cream ment to do for mud fever?
 
I've had the physio for my horse without informing my vet but only for an MOT. I wouldnt have the physio without consulting my vet for anything that might be an injury or due to an injury.
 
Gingerwitch said:
I am really annoyed - why should i ask someone else if I can have alternative treatment to MY horse?

I have just been told that a particular back person will not attend my horse unless I inform my vet- told her that up to her - she just lost a customer,

I will not cow tow to the vets - when they pay for the horse and can diagnose whats wrong with the poor critter then maybe I will consult with them - until then they can just butt out !

How dare they try and dictate to a horse owner who or who cant look at there animal - when they honestly keep saying - give it another few days and see what develops - and when pressed they say they do not know what is the problem
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I would assume they are covering there own backs incase they end up treating a horse for the incorrect ailment. I wouldnt be offended.
 
I feel sorry for GW, I think she's having a hard time of it and hasn't gotten the rant reception she needed here.

GW my physio explained it to me when she came (my first time this year - can you imagine?) that they have to get a vet's agreement (not quite permission ;) ) and inform them they are treating a horse for their professional insurance. Just in case your horse stands on them etc. Hope that helps.

FWIW I don't *like* the vets being able to have that say so, I like you, haven't had a great time with vets and don't hold them in very high regard (the one's I've used) anyway, however, needs must. Do the right thing by your ned, call the lady back, explain and let her get your vets agreement :)

And have a cuppa on me :)
 
horserider said:
I'm really surprised to hear a person as apparently experienced as yourself say that, as McTimoney is highly respected in professional circles.

You must be particularly unlucky in your area because the biggest vet practices in my area all work with a McTimoney therapist who has a large client base of professional competition and racing yards.
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My McTimoney therapist is very professional. I wouldn't hesitate in recommending her. I had to speak to my vets about using her before she came as I did the physio I used.
I think as with any profession you get some therapists who are better than others.
 
BoolavogueDC said:
I feel sorry for GW, I think she's having a hard time of it and hasn't gotten the rant reception she needed here.

GW my physio explained it to me when she came (my first time this year - can you imagine?) that they have to get a vet's agreement (not quite permission ;) ) and inform them they are treating a horse for their professional insurance. Just in case your horse stands on them etc. Hope that helps.

FWIW I don't *like* the vets being able to have that say so, I like you, haven't had a great time with vets and don't hold them in very high regard (the one's I've used) anyway, however, needs must. Do the right thing by your ned, call the lady back, explain and let her get your vets agreement :)

And have a cuppa on me :)
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It's not in case the horse stands on them it's in case the vet is treating the horse for something where the therapy they are offering is contraindicated.
 
GW

Hope you're ok today xz gotta to love good old hho forum pepes for the usual helpful non judgemental advice !!! Take what you want from the replies - some of which have helpful and supportive and the others well .....
 
Jen_Cots said:
Australia still has it under the brand name "dermapred"
http://www.troylab.com.au/products.php?tid=1&iid=26&pid=136

However none of this helps us as its illegal to import from Oz.
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Only prescription, I think. I got my SIL who lives in Perth to ask. :o

thatsmygirl said:
Fuciderm ( dog cream) iv had for my horses sweetitch. £16 a tube. £37 is a joke. What's that cream ment to do for mud fever?
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Fuciderm is excellent, but the human version is double the strength, sadly also prescription only. Careful to wash hands after, it's a steroid cream and v powerful. A mate swears it cured her horse's sarcoid. It's all she used and it did totally disappear.

If you're going abroad on holday this summer, loads of stuff like cortisone cream is available over the counter (eg in the USA). Have a scout in a decent pharmacy in between beach days. :)
 
As others have said legally the back person will need to have the permission of your vet to treat your horse.

If you are unhappy with your vet's lak of diagnosis ask for an immediate referral to one of the veterinary hospitals (RVC, Rossdales etc) for a full lameness workup. You can insist on this.

Or change your vet, however if you are insured speak to your insurance company first as this could affect your ability to claim.

I've been in a similar position to myself and it's very stressful and worrying as an owner to know your horse is suffering but feel that your vet is not getting close to a diagnosis so that you horse can receive the appropriate treatment and make a full and speedy recovery.
 
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The Veterinary Act

As a result of the Veterinary Act (1966) and the subsequent exemptions; it is ILLEGAL for any person, other than the owner of the animal, to treat an animal unless the permission of the animals Veterinary Surgeon is SOUGHT and OBTAINED.The implications of the Veterinary Act (1966) are to safeguard the WELFARE of HORSES.
As a direct result the Equine Masseur must contact the Veterinary Surgeon used by the client and gain permission to treat the animal.

*
There are many therapists of varying specialism working outside the parameters of the Veterinary Act (1966).These individuals are BREAKING THE LAW. They are often not INSURED, or members of a professional body.The Veterinary Surgeons Act, passed in parliament in 1948 to protect the welfare of sick and injured animals from treatment by unqualified persons.
The practice of veterinary surgeons in the UK is governed by the Veterinary Act (1966). Under that act (with certain exemptions noted below) no one may practice veterinary surgery unless they are registered with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

The exemptions to the general rules of The Veterinary Act (1966) are as follows:

1. A doctor or dentist may carry out any treatment, test or operation on an animal, provided he does so at the request of a registered Veterinary surgeon.

2. A doctor may also perform an operation on an animal for the purposes of removing an organ or tissue for use in treatment of a human being.

3. The treatment of an animal by Physiotherapy; if carried out under the direction of a registered Veterinary Surgeon who has examined the animal and prescribed such a treatment.

4. An owner of an animal (or his employees, or other members of the owner’s household) may administer minor medical treatment to his own animal.

5. An owner of an agricultural animal (or anyone engaged or employed in caring for agricultural animals) may carry out medical treatment or minor surgery (not involving entry into a body cavity) on such an animal provided that it is not done for reward.

6. A Veterinary Nurse whose name is entered on the list of Veterinary Nurses maintained by the college may carry out any medical treatment or minor surgery to a companion animal; provided that the companion animal is for the time being, under the care of a registered Veterinary Surgeon.

7. Lay persons may administer first aid in an emergency, for the purposes of saving a life or relieving pain and suffering.
 
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Gingerwitch said:
Look - its my horse I pay the bills - i can have it shot tonight if i want ! - I am bloody incensed my horse has been being treated for mud fever for 4 weeks - after the first 5 days antibiotics I tell them its still not clearing - leave if for a week they say... so i do - mud fever gets worse and worse (horse stabled by the way and doing every thing i have been told to) - call them out again - give me cream.... call them out again - by this time the bulb of the horses heel is pouring with blood he has scabs all over his legs and they say "oh he has got it bad " yes thats why you were here two days ago ! and you gave me some cream that lasted for approx 4 applications to his scabs.... then the horse is almost crippled - call vets out - they say leave him for 24 hours.... then they say get the on call vet out if I am still not happy..... get the on call vet out to crippled horse on sat - I get given a lecutre that she is for emergency call outs only.... and to get own vet out today...... speak to own vet today.... they say leave him till Wed to see what happens.... they dont know what it is and if x who visited on Sat could not find anything serious (horse is in obvious pain and hobling) then we just need to give it time. And I have to ask them for someone else to look at the crippled animal
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Seems your issue is with the vets not the back person :rolleyes:
 
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