Vet permission - they dont pay the bill

paulineh said:
I find some of your post quite offensive . If you are not happy with YOUR VET then change them. I also agree with the physio, they are working within the law and protecting themselves.

It is the Law that you at least inform your vet. Asking a Physio to see your horse is asking another professional to do something to your horse.

Physiotherapy is an invasive treatment.

Vets are human beings as is a Doctor and yes they can be wrong. Vets can only go by what the owner / groom tells them not what the patient can tell them.

Your poor horse and poor physio, they don't need owners like you.

A vet will know the physio's etc in your area so would I am sure be happy to give permission.
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Way to go ! nice one
 
Proves your back person is doing everything correctly. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if your vet isn't informed your physio isn't insured on her insurance.
 
Yes I did tell the vets previously mine were being treated, but appantly you have to ask permission EVERY time they are treated !

There really are some nasty people on here - thanks for the pms !
 
Gingerwitch said:
Yes I did tell the vets previously mine were being treated, but appantly you have to ask permission EVERY time they are treated !

There really are some nasty people on here - thanks for the pms !
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I am sorry you have been getting nasty pm's that's out of order.
 
No, permission isn't needed for every treatment. But i would imagine that due to your horse being lame that your therapist wanted vet confirmation that any treatment performed wouldn't make the problem worse. As I said previously undiagnosed lameness is one contraindication & so it sounds like the therapist is trying to build a good communication with your vet to ensure best outcome for your horse.

Either way hope you get him sorted soon. x
 
Gingerwitch,
just who/what are you angry at? Is it the vet, the physio or the law?

I can understand your frustration re the fact that you have been tied up with "red tape" to get the physio treatment you feel your horse needs. However, as many people on here are saying the physio, if they are properly qualified and doing things "by the book" and wish to protect themselves (and you) they need to get the vet to just say OK. The vets usually 99% of the time will say yes.

My physio asked that I get some sort of consent - she took my word for it - that the vet authorised it. IN turn, every time she treats my horse, she fills out a form with the work she carried out, and sends it to my vet.


*MY* concern with this is - how does this in turn affect my standing with my insurance company? I don't tell the insurance company every time the horse gets treated - and if she finds something niggling (a spasm, a tear) will this negate my insurance as i've not reported it? Will they exclude those areas in the future? I live in hope and trust that this is not the case, but only by phoning my insurance company will I know for sure.

In the mean time, I have no problem with my physio and vet working together. I have in the past had a mystery lameness issue - first point of call, vet and farrier. They couldn't find any thing obvioius. Other than sending off to Clyde vet for total lameness workup, vet suggested I give my physio a ring (which I had already done, had her on standby). Physio found a pectoral muscle tear and over a few weeks of treatment, rest, and easy work - the tear was mended and horse sound again.
 
I agree with you OP. Things have changed considerably since 1966, and the 1986 revision to the Act mainly concerned professional qualifications and registration. However "alternative" treatments are now much more mainstream, and often heavily regulated themselves, and information about practitioners is much more readily available than in 1966. Not entirely sure if the 1966 Act also transgresses the Human Rights Act vis a vis rights relating to ownership of property and freedom to contract. The 1966 Act doesn't apply to Scotland either, not sure if there is equivalent legislation as I can't be bothered looking it up.

In practice, I just ignore it. If a practitioner says to check with my vet, I just nod and smile, and don't do it. My time is limited and I trust my own judgement.
 
rhino said:
Because it's the law?! Poor 'back person', following the law and losing custom over it :( Any one who wouldn't follow this code of practice certainly wouldn't be anyone I wanted anywhere near my animals.

If you don't like the way your vet treats, then find a different vet. Most will be happy to recommend good, registered professionals if they have seen the horse before and are confident that it will do good/do no harm.

In this country, only vets can diagnose. There is the potential to do harm in having a 'back person' out to 'treat' a horse with an injury.
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My thoughts exactly, though a competent trained practitioner will know when to stop and call the vet. In my day job I can't diagnose but I can contact the doctor with an educated "guess".
 
This is a hilarious thread.. why wouldnt you want to consult your vet on this...

My physio who is amazing funnily enough then consults the vet if she needs to and you get 2 professionals working together.. result!!

Also - I love my vet so any excuse to give him a call is welcome!
 
OP - the alternative is as follows:

Find a physio who is happy to break the law and not insist your vet is informed. Then, if and when they break your horse, you'll have to pay god-knows-how-much to your vet to fix the problems.

If you're unhappy with your current vets and their treatment of your horse the best course of action would be change vets.
 
For those that live in blistful ignorance - changing vets to ones with a reasonable reputation is a task in itself -to those that have a fanstastic vets - well just keep hoping they do not get taken over by one of the large practices or that they dont suddenly decide to expand and take on newbies that want to operate, mri scan, blood transfuse or send to Liverpool for the slightest thing.

If I did not care about my horse - why would i be spending money on a back person - no i would just carry on and let the thing suffer.


I never belived it when they said you sometimes get a pack instinct when someone is low on these forums - I certainly have had a pretty off reception both on here and via pm
Some of you really need to take a step back, and I really hope you are never at the end of your teather as I have been.

Oh yes I will move vets practices - I will get the one from off the A38 - now wonder if i will ever see the same vet more than once.
 
Mithras said:
In practice, I just ignore it. If a practitioner says to check with my vet, I just nod and smile, and don't do it. My time is limited and I trust my own judgement.
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That's really not fair on whatever practitioner you use, and I also think it shows them a distinct lack of respect!
 
I had my physio here today so asked her how it worked for her.
The practice I am with give her blanket permission to treat any of their cilents horses .
The others locally she speaks to before hand .
She sends a report of every treatment to the vets .
She calls the vets at once if she finds something worrying on a routine vist and follows it up with the paperwork.
And of course often it's the vet ringing her before the treatment.
 
What about respect for the owner of the horse, that usually knows there animal better than the vet - no we are just expected to be the cash cow that pays up and is not allowed to make any decisions in the animals care.

If the vet did not know what was wrong, they sure as hell were not going to let someone else come and look at it - were they ?

All this is is an backside covering excercise and anyways no "professional" will ever critisces another in the horse world - why should they it would stop them all earning a living.
 
Gingerwitch, perhaps if you say what area you are in people could recommend a good practice . However I think you do need to change your attitude to the veterinary profession or you will never be able to build a decent relationship with a vet.
 
Gingerwitch said:
What about respect for the owner of the horse, that usually knows there animal better than the vet - no we are just expected to be the cash cow that pays up and is not allowed to make any decisions in the animals care.

If the vet did not know what was wrong, they sure as hell were not going to let someone else come and look at it - were they ?

All this is is an backside covering excercise and anyways no "professional" will ever critisces another in the horse world - why should they it would stop them all earning a living.
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Gingerwitch I know you feel got at about this but .....
This law exists that's that I enjoy driving at 120 mph but have to wait until I go to Germany to do it.I fail to understand why every time I pay x to do y for me I have to pay the government 20% of the bill when tax has already been paid on the money I am paying the bill with but that's the way it is I have to do it.

Anyway hows the mud fever has it settled at all and I hope the horse is feeling easier.
 
As a practitioner myself (I work on Dogs as well as Horses) I always either contact the vet myself or ask my client to do so.

I work closely with my vets and on many occasions they ask me to see clients.

The law is the law and I should be abided to. I have yet to find a vet refuse me permission to see and work on an animal.
 
Gingerwitch said:
What about respect for the owner of the horse, that usually knows there animal better than the vet - no we are just expected to be the cash cow that pays up and is not allowed to make any decisions in the animals care.

If the vet did not know what was wrong, they sure as hell were not going to let someone else come and look at it - were they ?

All this is is an backside covering excercise and anyways no "professional" will ever critisces another in the horse world - why should they it would stop them all earning a living.
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I know there are millions of posts on here, and I don't know if you read mine - but I can assure you a good vet WILL consult with a good physio if there's something that SEEMS muscular in nature but that they can't pinpoint themselves.

I don't like to be BULLIED in to having to deal with excess beaurocracy and paperwork, so can understand (I think) the reason you're miffed. But I don't think it's fair to criticise the vet and or the physio for doing their jobs.
 
I don't/didn't know about the law surrounding alternative therapies - never had to ask the vet before, other than when we did homeopathy for Rosie's sarcoid. But that said, the vets I am with currently are very open minded and ofter suggest other practitioners before you get a chance to google and suggest it so I am very lucky in that respect.

As for the mud fever/infection - antibiotics can take up to 10 days (or longer depending on what they are fighting) before you see a difference. For me personally that fact whatever it is hasn't cleared despite the anti-bug pills suggest your horse is still in contact with something that is causing it.

Despite your issues with the vets, might be worth looking in to a dectomex (sp.) jab to kill of any mites in case it is that. Is it possible to change her bedding from straw?
Not sure how clean legged your hoss is, but might be worth clipping very close to see if you can spot anything that could otherwise be missed?
 
this is standard practice. all 'alternative' therpaies have to work under vets acceptance. your practitioner was only following protocal. anyone who comes to treat without your vet knowing is breaking the rules.
 
paulineh said:
As a practitioner myself (I work on Dogs as well as Horses) I always either contact the vet myself or ask my client to do so.

I work closely with my vets and on many occasions they ask me to see clients.

The law is the law and I should be abided to. I have yet to find a vet refuse me permission to see and work on an animal.
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AGREED! :-)
 
HashRouge said:
That's really not fair on whatever practitioner you use, and I also think it shows them a distinct lack of respect!
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What a bizarre comment. Practitioners are interested in getting custom. Or at least the ones I use are...They get my respect over time from doing a good job, not insisting on me running around after them so they can do their jobs and covering their own backs.

I really wouldn't want a horse masseur or phsyio (NB NOT a "professional" in the traditional sense of the word) who worked too closely with a vet's practice. Its anti-competitive.

All the alternative equine practitioners I have used have asked me to contact the vet myself. My choice not to. I pay the bills and I own the horse they are practising on.
 
Mithras said:
What a bizarre comment. Practitioners are interested in getting custom. Or at least the ones I use are...They get my respect over time from doing a good job, not insisting on me running around after them so they can do their jobs and covering their own backs.

I really wouldn't want a horse masseur or phsyio (NB NOT a "professional" in the traditional sense of the word) who worked too closely with a vet's practice. Its anti-competitive.

All the alternative equine practitioners I have used have asked me to contact the vet myself. My choice not to. I pay the bills and I own the horse they are practising on.
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Yes much of the regulations around vets boarders on anti -competitive the way is difficult to swop around vets to get the cheapest treatment the high cost of percriptions for drugs if you wish to buy them yourself. The savings that you can achieve in some drugs is eye watering.
The pracititoner risks not being insured if they don't follow the regulations that's fine if they trust you not to sue them if something goes wrong .
However it's likely if you did try to sue them if they damaged your horse its unlikely it would go well for a cilent who has wilfully decided not to inform the vet when asked to.
I wonder if a horse was damaged by an alternative pracititoner where the owner had not informed the vet beforehand if the insurabpnce company might try to refuse to pay the costs of the treatment to remedy the problem.
I agree with you massage is not strictly a professional service but it is contra indicated in some conditions ( after azoturia is one).
Physio's are in every way a professional who now are very skilled specialists with skills that vets just can't offer a good equine physio working alongside a good equine vet is a powerful combination to manage long term soundness for sport horses.
 
Those of you that choice not to consult with your vet when it comes to asking a "Back" person to see your horse , would you use an unqualified farrier or EDT to deal with your horse.

Those with out formal training either lie to get insurance or do not have any insurance at all.

What would you do if something went wrong, you would not have a leg to stand on.


Mitras. You say
All the alternative equine practitioners I have used have asked me to contact the vet myself. My choice not to. I pay the bills and I own the horse they are practising on.

A professional Practitioner is NOT practising. You take that chance but where would you stand if things went wrong
 
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Goldenstar said:
Yes much of the regulations around vets boarders on anti -competitive the way is difficult to swop around vets to get the cheapest treatment the high cost of percriptions for drugs if you wish to buy them yourself. The savings that you can achieve in some drugs is eye watering.
The pracititoner risks not being insured if they don't follow the regulations that's fine if they trust you not to sue them if something goes wrong .
However it's likely if you did try to sue them if they damaged your horse its unlikely it would go well for a cilent who has wilfully decided not to inform the vet when asked to.
I wonder if a horse was damaged by an alternative pracititoner where the owner had not informed the vet beforehand if the insurabpnce company might try to refuse to pay the costs of the treatment to remedy the problem.
I agree with you massage is not strictly a professional service but it is contra indicated in some conditions ( after azoturia is one).
Physio's are in every way a professional who now are very skilled specialists with skills that vets just can't offer a good equine physio working alongside a good equine vet is a powerful combination to manage long term soundness for sport horses.
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I should think an insurer would try all ways of not paying up, because insurance contracts are uberrimae fidei and require full disclosure and updating of all material facts. Mine however aren't insured. I don't actually think failing to inform a vet of the treatment would materially affect a court case against a seperate individual, not even to the extent of contributory negligence - its too remote.

As for "the law is the law" comments - the law is always changing and is certainly open to comment and criticism. I do think this law was passed in an era where alternative treatments were much less mainstream than now. Its now out of date.

If its such an important issue, then there is nothing to stop veterinary practices and equine physios etc establishing a protocol for informing each other as to treatment of a particular animal (as some already do), rather than the onus being placed on the horse owner.
 
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