Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

Pfft need lots of Like buttons..Who are these experts?.I must know/heard of them?.If you are going to pick a fight with your horse the chances are you are going to get double barrelled into next week.
 
Though my little brat pony is nowhere near as bad as what some people have described he is a clear example of where 'violent', (using the term loosely) just esculated issues. If you played leader/bully he got even angrier and at only 12hh he was and can still be VERY quick with his back feet. I should know, he almost broke my knee cap when I was a kid:rolleyes:

With a typical pony attitude, being told to do something he got defensive and being nicey nicey to him just meant he would walk all over you. Before me he was sent back from loan homes 4 times in a couple of months with the reputation of biting, kicking, and actively chasing you in the field :D

The answer to our problems was just simply groundwork. Once a week it was just me and him in the school. Move back, move to the side, walk on, halt, walk on, move away. Clear instructions and defining yourself as 'boss' gained his respect. Don't get me wrong, he can still be a grumpy sod, but gets a stern nose tap if I spy nipping teeth and I try not to push his rear end to move over, a simply hand gesture from ground work and he will move. He is much more chilled knowing his place in our 'herd' and behaves impeccably compared to other rude bargy ponies on the yard.The relationship must work in that he respects what you ask of him, but you must respect his space too. Preferably putting him out with a firm herd leader would help to teach him some boundaries. Luckily my cob is admired for being a very respectable herd leader who doesn't need to kick and bite to 'control' his herd of 7, including 5 year olds who are twice his size. :o Good luck!
 
Oh no :(

I really feel for you :(

I had this problem with mine when he was nearly 3.

Started rearing up at me and kicking out and ended up breaking my mums hand and got me a few times.
Literally nightmare horse, didn't know what to do.
So in the end, he got physically reprimanded ... nothing horrendous but a fair few smacks! And to my horror...he obviously thought he could dish that out too and it ended up a lot worse. Obviously when a 500kg agile lump of muscle starts fighting with you...you ain't gonna win.

In the end I turned him out. For ages..literally barely handled him for about 6months? or so. Brought him in one day and he was like a lamb and has been since. Maybe it's something he's just going to grow out of?

A few sharp smacks on my current 2year old work fine though.

I think every horse is different.

Best of luck with the beautiful boy, stay safe! x
 
So remove the term 'a pasting' which skims around what you want to do.

Which is beat him.

Really? Would you beat anything else? A child who was trying his luck? No you would explain calmly what you want and why, horses are no different you should just explain in a language they can understand.

He is pushing you around yes, so he needs correction and repetition. You've allowed him to get away with it so now you need to fix it, and not with force.

I'm really sorry QB and from your posts I have always respected your opinions but if you want to get 'nasty and violent' with your youngster then you shouldn't own a horse.

I am not wishy washy, Buddy has been told off and on occasion with correct timing smacked, but literally I can count on one hand. He is a well mannered 4 year old who broke in beautifully and none of his training has required use of a crop or 'a pasting'. No young horse should have to go through this.

I hope if you do it you feel every blow and every inch of distrust he will have in you. He should be a willing partner not an animal who does what you tell him because otherwise he thinks he may get beaten. i've owned a horse who had been treated like this, he never 100% trusted humans, why should he?
 
I recommend reading Mark Rashid's "Horses Never Lie: The Heart of Passive Leadership."

Mark argues that while many herds have a dominant horse who gets what it wants by behaving aggressively towards other horses, this is not, according to his observations, a horse who the other horses choose to follow or hang out with. They'll get out of its way when it chases them off the water trough or a pile of hay, but generally they'll avoid it. Instead, the horse who the others want to follow is generally a horse who is calm, consistent, who leads by example, who doesn't take any crap but doesn't regularly behave in an outright aggressive manner. Mark calls this horse a "passive leader." His view is that we should seek out that passive leader role in order to have the best possible relationships with our horses. He stresses that "passive" does not mean letting your horse do whatever it wants and walk all over you, but rather being calm and consistent and quietly firm.
 
As many if you know, I have an angle grinder that I trim my horses feet with, would you like to borrow it to give your horse a pasting with?
 
Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.
 
Cortez said:
Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.
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I don't think anyone has suggested nambypambying anything. Just perhaps that giving it a good 'pasting' isn't the way to go.

My horses have all had manners to burn - I've never beaten anything in my life - but will happily give it a whack. There is a huge difference between the two.
 
amymay said:
I don't think anyone has suggested nambypambying anything. Just perhaps that giving it a good 'pasting' isn't the way to go.

My horses have all had manners to burn - I've never beaten anything in my life - but will happily give it a whack. There is a huge difference between the two.
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Exactly how I feel amymay, there is a huge divide between the two things.

I like the passive leadership thing, its just like having a good boss, my fave ever boss was great. let us know when things weren't right and was just a great chilled person to be around... my worst boss, crazy lady who let things go too far then go ape when it all got too much and the trigger might be smallest thing, she would explode. never knew where we were with her!
 
I don't know you, or your horse. Maybe this is the right thing to do, maybe it's not.

All I do know is that I had a horse in the past that could be dominant and aggressive, and if I gave him 'a good pasting' I wouldn't be here to tell the tale. That is all.

Keep safe. I hope this doesn't ruin any relationship you have with your horse.
 
Queenbee said:
They are all separated in individual paddocks
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Here's your problem, IMO.

I could never be on a yard where this is the only option.

I've seen 'posh competition horses' live like this and slowly go mad from it.

I can understand the reasoning behind it - but I really feel horses should be able to mutually groom, play and interact within a herd environment....especially younger ones.
 
Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse. But I'm not sure what "pasting" means? I don't get the feeling that OP was planning on beating horsie up?
 
JennBags said:
QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

There are the types of horses that are just trying it on & need a good smack to be put in their place, such as the ones described by sophiebailey and madhoss.

Then there are the ones that are truly dominant & need a different approach, which is what Ben sounds like. You need to get his trust & respect, you need to be the herd leader, and beating him into submission is not, IMO, the way to do it.

You say it has worked before so why not again? Because its a temporary fix, and the more you do this, each time he goes back, the worse he will be and you will end up with a dangerous horse who can't be handled at all.

I think Jeeve & Spike have got it right, you need to re-establish your herd leader status with lots of moving him round on a small circle, stopping him, changing direction (using your body language), backing him up, using the stick as a threat but not actually hitting him with it, from what you've described, I think hitting him will make him rebel far worse. Its difficult to describe exactly what I mean, it's almost an IH approach but without the softly-softly part of it. When you're moving him round, you need to be physically firm until he starts listening to your body language, it's important to get that right too.

Good luck :)
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I didn't ask for advice, I have every intention of 'moving him around' it is something we do everyday before he goes out in the field, to try and get him to wait and listen. Not every horse will be fixed with one session, at some later point they will test again, this does not mean that method doesn't work, clearly it did... this is just a horse being a horse and testing, the lessons need to be reitterated.
rockysmum said:
She didn't

She asked for vibes from us, the only advice she asked for was how to get herself to actually do it. At no point in the OP did she doubt it was right.
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thank you for clarifying
siennamum said:
I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.
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This, absolutely. I will not be grabbing a whip and beating the poo out of him, I will be reprimanding with voice, etc... and if he doesn't listen, I will use the whip to back up my voice and get him out of my space, or stop undesirable, dangerous behaviour.

Brightbay said:
Well, clearly it hasn't worked, since the aim is to stop the behaviour, and the behaviour is still happening. At what point the in cycle of beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks then tells you again they don't like your approach, beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks... will you try a different approach, I wonder?

Most of the worst violence in the world seems to me to happen because someone in a respected position has said "this thing you think is bad and that makes you really uncomfortable is actually fine and is the only way". Just brutalises the person doing it so that they think it's normal and everybody does it that way (they don't) and increases the likelihood of escalating retaliation.

However, it sounds as if you're now happy and reassured that you'll have to keep doing it, so I wonder why you posted? Maybe you really do wonder if there's a better way and you are uncertain about whether you really are the sort of person who thinks a sustained attack on an animal as a planned a premediated punishment is OK.
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Please do not get me wrong, this is not a method I think is 'ok or appropriate' with all horses, this is an individual case, for ebony, I would never have been able to use this approach, ben is not ebony and it is appropriate in my opinion given the situation and his attitude/temperament.

Miss L Toe said:
More work.
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totally agree, but won't be faffing around putting up with his attitude on the ground without dealing with it. Also, wont be jumping straight on his back he will be worked on the lunge for a few days and ground work too.
JennBags said:
I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this :)



I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle :)
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thats good for you, ben has and will be again excellent to handle, this is simply a blip and one I will deal with, perhaps he is testing me because in this sense he never has tested me in this way before? Therefore hopefully it should only take one session of reprimanding a bout of bad behaviour.

Alyth said:
This! "A pasting" doesn't do any good to either you or the horse. You need to be consistent, respond to negative behaviour with appropriate response - not loose your temper and beat him up. Do less sooner.....keep him busy and don't forget to reward good behaviour!! Youngsters, whether horse or human! are always testing the boundaries....a long (at least 12') leadrope is essential. And learn to control his hindquarters. Although the P word is hated nowadays his first 3 "games" are essential!!!
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No one said anything about beating him up... this is not something that is going to be done in temper or anger... thats not my style, its a golden rule to never react in anger/temper. I have been fully able to control the quarters, and to back him up, etc.... he hasn't forgotten that he is just ignoring it and being a stubborn brute/git.
TigerTail said:
If the trainer who backed him is suggesting a ''good pasting'' then its no wonder the horse is behaving how he is. He's clearly had steps missed out in his education, and those blanks have been filled in with slaps and shouting from this so called trainer.

You need a new trainer. A good pasting it not going to resolve this issue, its only going to make him wary of humans.

You need to learn proper groundwork and how the horses mind works in order to make them want to do what we want and not do what we dont - but not through a thrashing :eek:
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please do not teach me to suck eggs... I do not need a new trainer thank you very much.
Wheels said:
I am actually gobsmacked that these so called trainers of yours are well respected if this is the advice they give.
You need to do some proper groundwork with a suitable trainer, if you try to beat this horse then I fear you are going to get hurt, possibly badly. You need to get into a different mindset.

Even if you won the first battle there will be many more unless you change tactics!

You came asking for support but I cannot support giving a horse a pasting!
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As above.

amymay said:
I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.
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He will be worked this winter Amymay, but I won't be hunting him, he is 3 1/2 and I don't agree with hunting him this young.
 
Maesfen said:
Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand? You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes. Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.
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^^^Absolutely this with the "Just learn to think before you do anything" underlined in bold with a sparkly font.
 
Caol Ila said:
I recommend reading Mark Rashid's "Horses Never Lie: The Heart of Passive Leadership."

Mark argues that while many herds have a dominant horse who gets what it wants by behaving aggressively towards other horses, this is not, according to his observations, a horse who the other horses choose to follow or hang out with. They'll get out of its way when it chases them off the water trough or a pile of hay, but generally they'll avoid it. Instead, the horse who the others want to follow is generally a horse who is calm, consistent, who leads by example, who doesn't take any crap but doesn't regularly behave in an outright aggressive manner. Mark calls this horse a "passive leader." His view is that we should seek out that passive leader role in order to have the best possible relationships with our horses. He stresses that "passive" does not mean letting your horse do whatever it wants and walk all over you, but rather being calm and consistent and quietly firm.
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Completely agree with this! I am a big fan of Mark Rashid and think he has really been able to identify how to build a relationship on mutual respect and trust - it strikes a balance between being too dominant or being too soft.....which I think is sometimes a trap people can fall into when using NH methods.
 
Sarah1 said:
OP - my feelings on this are simple, you know your horse & your trainers know your horse, if you respect their judgement and know that these actions are thoroughly considered & measured and are happy it's the right action for your horse then just get cracking!

I don't agree with beating animals but if every other avenue has been explored and all other attempts have failed then sometimes some tough love is the only answer, I agree with a previous reply though that these reprimands need to be a short sharp shock timed perfectly - if you are even a second too late you're likely to do more harm than good.

My horse is a big boy - he's almost 17hh and he's very broad too. He once bite me...once. As soon as his teeth made contact with my person I bopped him right on teh end of his nose - to this day I don't know where my speed came from but he has NEVER bitten again. Similarly he went through a phgase of barging out of the stable - he didn't care if I was stood in the way he'd come straight over me. Not good. Anyhoo, one day my (male) instructor was stood in the doorway with the stable door wide open, Bailey didnt make a move towards that door - he didnt dare barge my instructor (who has a very authoritive prescence about him without being aggressive or even raising his voice!) and I knew he was taking the pee with me so the next time he barged me I was ready for him - I smacked him across the chest with the leadrope and ran at him waving my arms and growling (looked like a lunatic!) - he was so shocked he backed straight up into the back corner of his stable and he has never barged since. If he ever looks like he's even thinking about it I just say 'ah' and he'll stop in his tracks.

I'll hasten to add my boy is a bit of a lover not a fighter so it is fairly easy for me to be the dominant 'herd' member - I appreciate this isn't the case with some horses.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but please remember if you lose your temper you've lost the argument. :)
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I agree... no temper, that I would not be able to live with. I have done the short sharp hit, I havent even waited for him to actually get me, its been as he starts to turn and puts his ears back... doesn't work with just one, he challenges this, and you have to give back it up and say 'no you don't get to get mad at me for telling you off!'

Oberon said:
I knew a horse like this.

He went away for breaking in by a local dressage trainer and came back sensitive and ill mannered.

Over then next few years he had occasional explosions under saddle and inhand.

He badly hurt his owner and people said he was possessed and needed a strong man to teach him a lesson.

Owner got the vet out first who found he was riddled with grade 4 ulcers that had been causing him pain for years.

Vet reckoned they first started with the stress of being broken in......
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He is absolutely fine when he is being handled and groomed, Im pretty sure that there are no ulcers, it is very much 'character'
Maesfen said:
Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand? You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes. Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.
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Im sorry? I didn't know you've watched me handling ben since I got him! You couldn't possibly know how he was handled, or whether he had boundaries set. Horses test people, horses have individual characters. He is meerly expressing himself... it just so happens that I don't want him to express himself in this way and won't allow it. I know my horse, I know why he is doing this, and I know how I will be handling it, which at some point means that when he gets above his station he will be reprimanded and put well and truly in his box... there is nothing wrong with that. Quite frankly I didn't come on here for advice on how to handle him or this situation, neither did I ask for opinions on my trainer, the fact that that has been provided by most of you is up to you, but it does not change how this will be handled. Its not just a pasting, its more groundwork, chiffney, more work, handling at at all times with a lunge whip and line so I can reprimand with it if needed, and tough loving, being in a mood with him for a few days, no fusses no loves, he will soon change his attitude. I will say also that Im using a lunge whip not for its viciousness, but for its saftey element, I won't be lathering him, but he will feel it, and I will be safe from hooves.
 
rema said:
Pfft need lots of Like buttons..Who are these experts?.I must know/heard of them?.If you are going to pick a fight with your horse the chances are you are going to get double barrelled into next week.
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There is no way that I am going to start naming names, thats not my style. And actually they do not use this as their 'typical approach' this is situational. Furthermore if my horse tries to kick me... I will use force to stop him being a bully and dangerous, without stopping it I will get double barreled into next week
 
Im sorry? I didn't know you've watched me handling ben since I got him!
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Queenbee, don't get defensive over a comment bourne from your original post - which you must have known to have been inflammatory.

There is no doubt you are a caring and loving horse owner. You've just received some very, very poor advice.

Apply some common sense.

Don't turn out next to an electric fence.
Give him some company.
Give him some work.
Apply consistency.
Crack on and build a relationship with this lovely horse.

Don't let the bad advice of a few replace what you know to be the correct course of action.
 
redredruby said:
Completely agree with this! I am a big fan of Mark Rashid and think he has really been able to identify how to build a relationship on mutual respect and trust - it strikes a balance between being too dominant or being too soft.....which I think is sometimes a trap people can fall into when using NH methods.
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Just to clarify QueenBee - I am not saying that you have or haven't used NH methods I was just responding to a post about Mark Rashid in general, not realting it to your specific circumstances.

I do also know what you mean about Ben getting cross about you telling him off! When I give my horse a tap to get him moving more forwards he bucks or puts his ears back - I am currently trying to teach him that a tap is an aid he moves forwards from and I am not telling him off or punishing him!
 
QB if you were entirely happy with the 'trainers' *shudders* advice, you wouldnt have posted about it on here, knowing most would disagree with this course of action.

My thoughts are with the poor horse, not you. He is doing as you have taught him to do - horses are mirrors of our behaviour and cause us to re examine ourselves, which is often painful to do as we know we have messed up - hence your denial.
 
Pedantic said:
Will you be posting pics of you in your dominatrix outfit :rolleyes::D
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just for you :D
Dominatrix-poster.jpg
 
redredruby said:
Just to clarify QueenBee - I am not saying that you have or haven't used NH methods I was just responding to a post about Mark Rashid in general, not realting it to your specific circumstances.

I do also know what you mean about Ben getting cross about you telling him off! When I give my horse a tap to get him moving more forwards he bucks or puts his ears back - I am currently trying to teach him that a tap is an aid he moves forwards from and I am not telling him off or punishing him!
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No horse should EVER be allowed to flatten his ears at a rider/handler! Sharp smack for that, absolutely.
 
TuscanBunnyGirl said:
Oh no :(

I really feel for you :(

I had this problem with mine when he was nearly 3.

Started rearing up at me and kicking out and ended up breaking my mums hand and got me a few times.
Literally nightmare horse, didn't know what to do.
So in the end, he got physically reprimanded ... nothing horrendous but a fair few smacks! And to my horror...he obviously thought he could dish that out too and it ended up a lot worse. Obviously when a 500kg agile lump of muscle starts fighting with you...you ain't gonna win.

In the end I turned him out. For ages..literally barely handled him for about 6months? or so. Brought him in one day and he was like a lamb and has been since. Maybe it's something he's just going to grow out of?

A few sharp smacks on my current 2year old work fine though.

I think every horse is different.

Best of luck with the beautiful boy, stay safe! x
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LOL! still want him? Can send him over as dog food ;) He will be fine :D and I will stay safe. Did consider chucking him away but he adores coming in, he actually goes bonkers if YO doesn't bring him in first.
 
Cortez said:
No horse should EVER be allowed to flatten his ears at a rider/handler! Sharp smack for that, absolutely.
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How about when I try to enter his stable and Obi flattens his ears, swishes his tail and bites the air near my face?

Is that wrong too? :o
 
Cortez said:
Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.
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And yet so many people from england who dont agree with this attitude will gladly go to ireland and buy a horse who has had this handling because they are so well behaved:rolleyes:
 
Cortez said:
Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse. But I'm not sure what "pasting" means? I don't get the feeling that OP was planning on beating horsie up?
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this, thank you
 
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