Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

TigerTail said:
I suspect its more he's trying to find where the boundaries are, one minute he's in regular work, then you're poorly, you arent on tip top form as none of us are when ill and things got a bit wishy washy. Now you're back and wanting to boss him again and he's saying 'whoa hang on a minute ive been looking after myself fine thanks Il stay this way'

As I said before its a reflection on you and the handling. Im not saying that in a nasty picking at you way, god knows Im struggling atm because i have discs out in my neck, doing inhand work this morning my boss mare knew I couldnt hold her on one side so instead of doing a half pass decided to waltz through me - normally it wouldnt occur to her.

How's about getting someone to film you with him, then you watch it back with critical eyes, looking at your body position, your consistency, timing etc.
The task - Lead him through a gateway, ask him to back up, ask him to circle on the lunge, stop on the circle and yield his hindquarters.

Then see what you think?
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actually, other than riding his routine has not changed at all, I have handled him every day as has YO. I know that when we are not top notch we are not as strong and clear, but for me this is a reason but not an excuse for bad manners. a reason gets dealt with an excuse gets ignored if you get what I mean. He has many reasons, his loss of ebs, a new yard which he loves very much, the change in his 'role' as a riding horse this year, and now the winter... there are lots of reasons for his behavior but no excuses, I expect him to be safe around people and non confrontational and he needs to know that.
 
At some point somewhere he's lost respect by the sounds of it, whether that was due to you, or just his bolshy nature developing, who knows !
I do feel for you, my big warmblood came to me at 3 as a spooky, bolshy, and at times aggressive, beggar. Im pretty sure he was beaten before i got him, he was awful in the stable as he hated anyone in a skip cap and would tunn his bum on you and threaten to kick out, in hand sometimes he would attack, rear and lash out when being led, in short he was a bloody nightmare.
I had help from a couple of " experts" who in the main told me to get rid he was a dangerous horse, stick a chiffney in his mouth ( funny i missed that bit in their book ) What turned him around was working him using the rope halter and Richard Maxwell techniques, i never looked back and he is a big sweetie now, i never needed to give him a pasting, but believe me i felt like it on a few occassions, i also tried a sharp smack, it worked for other horses id had, and tbh sometimes it did work but other times it just increased the unwanted behaviour, for me it was a rope halter, long line and Richard Maxwell that saved my boy quite literally from the bullet.
Good luck and keep yourself safe, and do what you feel you need to, and im sure that doesnt mean beating the crap out of him, if you havent tried it, give Max's stuff a look
 
I've not read all the posts but can imagine you have been given a mixture of advice.

Violence towards a horse is a concious decision and if you can take the time to decide to hit/beat...whatever word you want to use, you can also take the time to decide not to.

I know safety is paramount and I understand this is unnerving you but you need to gain more knowledge about how horses learn and interact with both their own species and us as humans. You need to learn about pressure, when to apply it and when to release it...the different type of pressure i.e. visual, verbal, physical (not hitting) and how respect is built up. Horses are a gift and we should feel honoured that we're lucky enough to own them and have them in our lives.

Violence is not the long term answer...it may give you the behaviour you are looking for in the short term but your horse will behave like that through fear and not through its choice to co-operate.

It's like building a house with no foundations.....it may stand up for a while but eventually it will fall down because the foundations weren't laid properly!

I have a youngster and work very hard to be the type of owner/handler I need to be to educate him correctly and ensure its life long. To be honest I feel a bit sick and worried for the horse in your care. There is another way.....and you need to invest some time and energy into learning it. You will be rewarded 100 times over. Good luck and I hope you reach a place of harmony with your horse (and yourself)....being angry is a horrible place to be!
 
cblover said:
I've not read all the posts but can imagine you have been given a mixture of advice.

Violence towards a horse is a concious decision and if you can take the time to decide to hit/beat...whatever word you want to use, you can also take the time to decide not to.

I know safety is paramount and I understand this is unnerving you but you need to gain more knowledge about how horses learn and interact with both their own species and us as humans. You need to learn about pressure, when to apply it and when to release it...the different type of pressure i.e. visual, verbal, physical (not hitting) and how respect is built up. Horses are a gift and we should feel honoured that we're lucky enough to own them and have them in our lives.

Violence is not the long term answer...it may give you the behaviour you are looking for in the short term but your horse will behave like that through fear and not through its choice to co-operate.

It's like building a house with no foundations.....it may stand up for a while but eventually it will fall down because the foundations weren't laid properly!

I have a youngster and work very hard to be the type of owner/handler I need to be to educate him correctly and ensure its life long. To be honest I feel a bit sick and worried for the horse in your care. There is another way.....and you need to invest some time and energy into learning it. You will be rewarded 100 times over. Good luck and I hope you reach a place of harmony with your horse (and yourself)....being angry is a horrible place to be!
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Thank you, but pretty well versed and understanding of behaviour/pressure/release etc. I am not angry, he is a baby and testing his boundaries... why would I be angry.
 
right, as riviting as all these opinions are, I have to go and prep for an interview for tomorrow. I'll be staying online because of the April Jones thread but won't be able to answer any although I am not being rude and ignoring people.:)
 
it's not being mean - or no more mean than a herd member would be if he got stroppy with them!! think about it - if he started pushing a "superior" horse around in the herd, they'd go "haha, very funny, now f*&k off...." and do it again next time he tried, until such point as he got the idea that they were boss and that's all about it.

no-one is suggesting you lay into him, but saying NO clearly, and maybe using a slap with a crop as the "kick or bite" from the boss is quite acceptable IMO!

good luck, and be careful. please make sure you've got a hat on when handling him if he's taken to going up!
 
I totally understand your frustration Queenbee... From your previous posts I know that you are a fair and kind horse handler so I think you are being led astray a bit by this trainer because you respect them. I consider you far more experienced than I but surely you must know that a 'pasting' is different to a short sharp reprimand for bad behaviour. An animal has to associate a smack or tap with something it is doing or there is no point, so for biting as you may remember I had a big problem with and was pussyfooting around making his behaviour more dominating every time I let him get away with it, I would push my silly young loan TB's face away, sometimes sharply when he went for me, and if he ever managed to bite me he would get a smack on the shoulder, neck or sometimes a bop on the nose depending on the malice I felt was behind it. He stopped biting me within a week of me starting doing this (i was starting think why isn't it instant but it gradually stopped) and he hardly ever tries it or disrespects me majorly now because I finally nipped it in the bud by dealing with lower level objectionable behaviour . With rearing and general bolshiness I think it is difficult to win. You have to issue a reprimand the very moment something happens so that it is very clear. If a horse rears, comes down, you smack it repeatedly, there is a good chance the horse is not going to associate that with the rearing especially if it carries on for a minute. It will probably make them have respect for you, but probably not in the way you want, and if it doesn't work he will retaliate and it only takes one strike of a hoof to hurt you pretty badly, believe me I've tried everything! Squaring up to the dominant horse who would come in on the lunge or turn at me whilst leading, a smack would aggravate him and he would get very aggressive, so I decided not to continue to do so. Sometimes you have to shout, show you are not afraid despite their behaviour, finish what you were doing, and leave it there for the day to come back next time and try some things before it gets heated.

Just try to give short sharp reprimands with your voice primarily the moment he steps out of line at a low level, and hopefully it won't escalate to this behaviour, if it does it could be a one off, it doesn't mean they will think its ok to do it all the time as long as you keep working on their respect in general, I think sometimes it will take a few days to get into their head, it can't be instant.

Good luck, I know you are reluctant to do this so I hope you think twice about it and find the right options for you :-)
 
I see a lot of babies come through the yard and how they rapidly change. There are some horses who, while not a walk over, would never ever need to be reprimanded. Sometimes you will get one who suddenly finds their feet and really pushes their boundaries and can then become unsafe. I am not a fan of really dominating a horse strongly as it does not go anywhere towards building a good relationship but I really do accept there are some who truly need to firmly put in their place. I had a youngster who a, grew massively and b, had time off when ill. When he then came back into work having had time off he became the absolute git from hell. I ended up selling him to a very large man as he had no respect for me and I got fed up with having everything ending up as a flat out fight. And yes I had professional help and tried for months but in the end I cut my losses and sold him on, honestly. I have another youngster who, while green and tries his luck from time to time, is nothing like the previous one and I am enjoying him. However, prior to actually having my big lad, I, like a lost of the posters on here would have been at a loss to understand why someone would take this course of action with any horse! Having been in the receiving end of it I now have sympathy. I would also say there is a huge world of difference between a scared or uncertain horse and one is just plain throwing their weight around.
 
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Be prepared to feel ashamed.

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.

We have the advantage of having control over our emotions and the intelligence to think through our actions, once you've crossed that line where do you go from there?

Sending you vibes to find courage to do the right thing, whatever that may be in your situation.
 
EMC said:
Be prepared to feel ashamed.

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.

We have the advantage of having control over our emotions and the intelligence to think through our actions, once you've crossed that line where do you go from there?

Sending you vibes to find courage to do the right thing, whatever that may be in your situation.
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Your horse tried to kick you & you ended up feeling ashamed because you reacted to that? You should have reacted to it, it's unacceptable! :eek:

It's ok walking away but if it's a one-off spur of the moment thing then the horse isn't going to remember it 10 minutes later, they need a response immediately.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Agreed. I see it with my 2 yr old recently turned out with a 7 yr old and he is fast learning how low down the order he now is ;)
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Didnt work with my 17.1 and growing 5 year old. Short of a flat out and dangerous punch up, nothing else WOULD stand upto him or if we thought they might, we were not prepared to test it out.
 
Bud's breeder breeds shire horses, it is well known around here if you have a bad mannered horse either in the field with his mates or with humans that you can turn out with his shire geldings, they are so passive and calm and but boy do they put a bolshy horse in its place. I'm sure Bud is like how he is because of his upbringing with shires.
 
Buds_mum said:
Bud's breeder breeds shire horses, it is well known around here if you have a bad mannered horse either in the field with his mates or with humans that you can turn out with his shire geldings, they are so passive and calm and but boy do they put a bolshy horse in its place. I'm sure Bud is like how he is because of his upbringing with shires.
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It has to be this :D

[YOUTUBE]FZplMhvGGuQ[/YOUTUBE]
 
EMC said:
Be prepared to feel ashamed.

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.
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Clearly you have nothing to be ashamed of, and many of us would have done the exact same in your situation - if not worse.
 
I have to laugh at Oberon's "OI" thing too. That's my go to. When I get my barn voice they're like Uh oh, fun and games are over. Obviously barn voice is used very sparingly but it works. Not screaming it's a low deep voice that looks like it wouldn't come out of a 5ft person.

The first time my mare went to a show she didn't want to go home. I was leading her and her trainer was coaxing nicely trying to be really nice. Now I'm looking at the look on her face and it's the, ehh nope don't feel like it. So after 15 mins of her standing half in the box I said here you take her to her trainer. Went behind and in the barn voice I said " get up that ramp now." I could have said would you like pasta for dinner. It was just the voice let her know enough madam. She sauntered up as if to say, geez ok I'm going.

Terri
 
Queenbee said:
Thank you :( it is never ever my first course of action and I have tried many tactics I know, my YO is one of the most respected horsewomen around and this is not normally her attitude either. My trainer who backed him is not known for being 'a softy' but she too tried other methods, I knew he would have tested her, especially since he was sooooo good when he came home, to me. I trust her, in that I know her reactions will be measured and appropriate so if he was hit, I know she would have had a reason. That is why I called her, she told me they had had a point at which she had to take a crop to him, he was nasty and challenging... I know this can be his nature on the ground... she told me it worked and from the horse I took home it obviously did, which gives me confidence to do it... one good thing is that she reitterated his softy side, in that he quickly wimps out of his challenge of authority if you front up to him this way and his behavour settles almost straight away.
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I won't be sending you any vibes, but will be sending your horse vibes, sounds like he/she is being a horrid little teenager, but pain and anger won't work.... being around other horses to effectively put him in his place will work ,and a no nonsense attitude from you, no treating it like a pet dog, have strong boundaries.
I know someone who struggled to get their horse to do as it was told, so they waved a lunge whip around, it worked for a while then it wouldnt do something else, so it got a wack on it's bum, it behaved for a few mths then, it decided it didn't want to do something again ,out came the lunge whip and the horse double barrelled them. I wouldn't EVER pick a fight with something I couldn't win, and remember, every horse is capable of killing us, they just choose not to because we have educated them properly!

It's like someone letting a kid talk to them like **** for yrs, then suddenly punishing that child, well that's not fair on the child. Sounds like your trained cocked up by taking a crop to a youngster, it's them to blame and yet you still feel compelled to follow their advice. I know plenty of horsemen/women who are well respected and been around horses for 50 yrs, doesn't mean they have been doing it correctly for 50 yrs!
 
Cortez said:
Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse.
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One is enough, imo. If you can give the three whacks in under a second, you may get away with it, but longer than that it is likely that the horse will already be considering you as an aggressor and something to be feared. Moreover, the final whacks are no longer directly punishing the original behaviour if they arrive too late. For the same reason (horse's short attention span), your first whack should come instantly, not seconds later.
 
You do sound angry by the very admission of your intention to be violent. If you are 'well versed' and have an adequate understanding of horse behaviour, you should be able to apply your knowledge and support your youngster through this period in his life.

We lead them into our human world and its up to us to communicate with them and build a partnership they understand, not the other way round. Imagine if you were dropped into a different country, different culture and people were shouting and hitting you because you didn't understand what was being asked of you.....is that your fault? I think not.

Your horse is asking questions and not getting the answers he needs...therefore he's making the rules up for himself! It can often just be the very small changes you make that can have a huge and positive effect of our horses!

I'm not questioning your knowledge or experience but we all have more to learn and each horse we encounter will teach us new things....if we're prepared to listen. I wish you all the best with him!
 
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