Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

Amymay & maesfen have pretty much summed it up for me. And oberon makes an excellent point re the turnout.
I have a very dominant pony. Virtually no flight instinct, she's all fight. Only 11.1 & fine at 5. But even as a tiny youngster, she would fight any attempt to dominate her, whether horse or human. She'll feign submission when she is physically overpowered but then go back for more. As a yearling the state she was in meant there was no choice but to pin her down & treat her. She was only about 50kg, if that so it was physically possible. Several times in that first week she had to be pinned on the floor as a last resort to treat her. And every time she'd get straight back up more aggressive than before. But, if she respects you as leader she'll do anything for you happily. I have seen experienced grown men back away from her, despite her size. But when she was 2 & my daughter 4 I was as happy for her to handle her as I was her first ridden loan pony. It has to be respect, not fear. Pony will still now fight any attempt to dominate her by humans or animals, but is good as gold for anyone who she respects as a leader.
 
Cortez said:
What? Are you saying this behaviour is OK?
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Of course not :D

But (god love him) that is what he does to me all winter :eek:.

A smack just makes him more angry :eek:

It's all an act though. In 20 + years, he has never actually hurt me (on purpose) ;).
 
Sorry, not read all replies as heading into a meeting.

I've done this, or a sort of equivalent, twice with the Dizz (big DWB), and I have a feeling she's in for another discussion.

In our case it's in the stable. She'll be moved over by a schooling whip and she'll be kept going round until she drops her head and keeps her ar$e to herself!

I once made the mistake of letting her (gently!) boss me around. I nearly paid for it dearly that afternoon when she used her hind hooves to kick me into her teeth, used to teeth to try and hold me to kick me, and plastered me to the wall in the middle with her shoulder.

She's a horse that has to have a boss, including a human boss. When I'm with her regularly she behaves impeccably for me, including calling when she sees me, nuzzling, etc., but she can still be a bit ar$ey for others (though nothing drastic). When I haven't handled her, things get iffy. A couple of weeks ago I was wary of going behind her in the stable :(. Usually I can touch her all over with no issue. The odd times I've been with her (work has taken over lately), her ears are flat back and she's turning her bum on me, plus leading with her shoulder to get me into the wall). Today she won't be caught by D. She's never bad to catch at this time of year. This evening I'll be out there until I've caught her, we'll be backwards and forwards and moving over 'till get to her stable, then it will be more back-up, etc. If she doesn't do as I've asked, I'll be in her stable with the schooling whip directing her round and round me until she remembers who I am.

Good luck OP.
 
Oberon said:
Of course not :D

But (god love him) that is what he does to me all winter :eek:.


A smack just makes him more angry :eek:

It's all an act though. In 20 + years, he has never actually hurt me (on purpose) ;).
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Maybe he suffers for SAD syndrome?:D:D. But if was 17 yrs younger would it be ok?
 
I don't know you or your horse either. I also subscribe to the 3 second rule and very rarely have to use it.

One of my firm rules is that I never get myself into what I can't get out of. So if I'm even thinking a horse needs a good well timed well meaning smack, I better damn well be able to deal with what's going to happen. We get a few horses on their last ditch effort. Behavorial issues which are man made. If one needs a smack, a good one, and they don't always, my husband is the one. Not because he enjoys beating horses, but because it in general is only ever needed once. I used to get on a colt in America. Full brother to a Breeders Cup winner. This horse used to try and rip you off his back viciously. I was dealing with him but to be honest I wasn't doing a great job. I also knew I wasn't strong enough to deal with him appropriately. Had hubby come over to get on him. He got one lash and never needed another one. He became quite a nice ride after that. Now you all can pick that apart any which way you like. At the end of the day he was in a racing barn, and he had a job to be done. Fact of the matter is that is what he needed. And since there was never another issue it wasn't this that or the other. He wasn't sulky or scared afterwards and actually got his act together and was a really nice ride afterwards.

But as I always say in these discussions, having been on a significant number of horses, more than most, you get a much wider education on what works and doesn't. By the same token there are many horses that you can't give a well timed smack because it's not going to help. Your tool box has to be quite expansive mixed with the knowledge to know the difference rather quickly. Pretending you know because you've read or seen this or that isn't good enough.

A well timed smack is better than people who constantly tap with a whip and kick, kick, kick. You just annoy your horse to death and they really have no idea what you want. This leads to more behaviour issues than you realise.

Terri
 
TigerTail said:
QB if you were entirely happy with the 'trainers' *shudders* advice, you wouldnt have posted about it on here, knowing most would disagree with this course of action.

My thoughts are with the poor horse, not you. He is doing as you have taught him to do - horses are mirrors of our behaviour and cause us to re examine ourselves, which is often painful to do as we know we have messed up - hence your denial.
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Excuse me?! I have admitted certain issues that have caused this behaviour... do not see any denial. I am entirely happy with the trainers, why wouldn't I post, your opinion is your entitlement, but if I was uncertain about their advice, the wording of my post would have reflected that, I never just follow advice blindly if I have doubt about it, I ask for other opinions and express my uncertaintly... I ask others what would you do, what do you think. You will see that I have not done this here.

I will send your condolences to my poor poor boy
 
QueenBee, you are one of the nicest people on here. I'm just going to say that I have a horse who learnt from an early age how to scare people. This horse has suffered considerable abuse as a result of this but will never back down, so has always been moved on. Violence breeds violence.
 
I didn't realise he was only 3 1/2 ! Rather than being naughty because he has not been ridden in a few days, could he be telling you he actually has had enough for now and needs to be turned away from work for the Winter?
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I don't know you or your horse either. I also subscribe to the 3 second rule and very rarely have to use it.

One of my firm rules is that I never get myself into what I can't get out of. So if I'm even thinking a horse needs a good well timed well meaning smack, I better damn well be able to deal with what's going to happen. We get a few horses on their last ditch effort. Behavorial issues which are man made. If one needs a smack, a good one, and they don't always, my husband is the one. Not because he enjoys beating horses, but because it in general is only ever needed once. I used to get on a colt in America. Full brother to a Breeders Cup winner. This horse used to try and rip you off his back viciously. I was dealing with him but to be honest I wasn't doing a great job. I also knew I wasn't strong enough to deal with him appropriately. Had hubby come over to get on him. He got one lash and never needed another one. He became quite a nice ride after that. Now you all can pick that apart any which way you like. At the end of the day he was in a racing barn, and he had a job to be done. Fact of the matter is that is what he needed. And since there was never another issue it wasn't this that or the other. He wasn't sulky or scared afterwards and actually got his act together and was a really nice ride afterwards.

But as I always say in these discussions, having been on a significant number of horses, more than most, you get a much wider education on what works and doesn't. By the same token there are many horses that you can't give a well timed smack because it's not going to help. Your tool box has to be quite expansive mixed with the knowledge to know the difference rather quickly. Pretending you know because you've read or seen this or that isn't good enough.

A well timed smack is better than people who constantly tap with a whip and kick, kick, kick. You just annoy your horse to death and they really have no idea what you want. This leads to more behaviour issues than you realise.

Terri
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Thats a very valid point, thats why when he misbehaved in the little paddock area (about 15 ft square) on the way to his field, I dropped the rope and got out of the way, no way I could have picked a fight there, surrounded by the electric fence... as it was it stung his ass anyway and all hell broke lose. :(:eek:
 
Queenbee said:
This, absolutely. I will not be grabbing a whip and beating the poo out of him, I will be reprimanding with voice, etc... and if he doesn't listen, I will use the whip to back up my voice and get him out of my space, or stop undesirable, dangerous behaviour.

No one said anything about beating him up... this is not something that is going to be done in temper or anger... thats not my style, its a golden rule to never react in anger/temper. I have been fully able to control the quarters, and to back him up, etc.... he hasn't forgotten that he is just ignoring it and being a stubborn brute/git.
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OP - "giving someone a pasting" means beating them up violently - we can only take others' communication on face value (much like horses), why wouldn't we assume you used the term knowing its meaning? A lot of people have, rightly, posted to deter you from using this approach you said you were going to use.
 
HBM1 said:
I didn't realise he was only 3 1/2 ! Rather than being naughty because he has not been ridden in a few days, could he be telling you he actually has had enough for now and needs to be turned away from work for the Winter?
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No not really, he was good as gold when in work, I got a bit poorly and he had a few days off, and with that his behaviour just escalated, it has now been 3 weeks, he is angry at doing nothing.
 
OP, you know your horse, if you think he needs a couple of good wallops to get him to respect your instructions again then he probably does. Many more than a couple won't achieve anything, though (but I'm sure you know that already).
 
I suspect its more he's trying to find where the boundaries are, one minute he's in regular work, then you're poorly, you arent on tip top form as none of us are when ill and things got a bit wishy washy. Now you're back and wanting to boss him again and he's saying 'whoa hang on a minute ive been looking after myself fine thanks Il stay this way'

As I said before its a reflection on you and the handling. Im not saying that in a nasty picking at you way, god knows Im struggling atm because i have discs out in my neck, doing inhand work this morning my boss mare knew I couldnt hold her on one side so instead of doing a half pass decided to waltz through me - normally it wouldnt occur to her.

How's about getting someone to film you with him, then you watch it back with critical eyes, looking at your body position, your consistency, timing etc.
The task - Lead him through a gateway, ask him to back up, ask him to circle on the lunge, stop on the circle and yield his hindquarters.

Then see what you think?
 
I'm not really into hitting but opening a can of whoop-ass to me is when I start raising my voice.

The word, "Oi" has magical powers......

My horses (and dog and son and hubby) are much more affected by that :D

I also flap my arms around when I get really mad :eek:.

I've shouted at the dog before now and managed to clear a beach of people :p.

One big guy came up to me afterwards and said he was about ready to "SIT DOWN" when I shouted it :D.
 
I think you should not ignore ears back for any reason. It can mean lots of things but all need attending to.
My youngster pulls faces behind my back, he hasn't the nerve to confront me, but will scowl at me & pretend he is rounding me up when we are coming in from the field. It is quite amusing, but his intentions are not funny at all. Periodically I make him walk alongside me and back him up & do groundwork to ensure he doesn't stretch that behaviour to it's natural conclusion.

If he is in his stable and I need to go in there, he also pulls faces & is grmpy about being disturbed, but I have no particular issue with this, he has to move over, back up and be polite, but I accept he wants his personal space and leave him alone rather than trying to prove a point.

His ears are absolutely pinned back with people he doesn't like, and so I am right there to ensure he doesn't hurt anyone, its completely unacceptable and I hope with good experiences & bridery he will get over himself.

I would always want to get to the bottom of ears back and ensure lots of exercises to consolidate submission are ongoing.

I also understand that ears back & passive are meaning something entirely different.
 
Renvers said:
OP - "giving someone a pasting" means beating them up violently - we can only take others' communication on face value (much like horses), why wouldn't we assume you used the term knowing its meaning? A lot of people have, rightly, posted to deter you from using this approach you said you were going to use.
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Being someone, who in 11 years with my mare never carried or used a crop or any force, hitting a horse with a lunge whip to back him out of my space or reprimand him for challenging or aggressive behaviour is a pasting, it is not repeated whacks consisting of a proper pasting if you get what I mean. I expect it will be a one, two, three, or just a one, if he suddenly goes 'oh no' what have i done, that is not to say that if five mins later he gets naughty again I won't do exactly the same... I will, but he is a fast learner. When his balls dropped we had similar issues in the form of handling/leading, rearing and kicking, in this instance we used a chiffney and a vet... it was a matter of days before he was a lamb again. The origin of this attitude is different though. 2 to 3 whacks is a pasting in comparison to my normal methods, which is why my trainer probably used this term... telling me I need to toughen up, and not be his friend, let him know he is in my bad books and behave like I dont like him very much at the moment, its just as much about him 'feeling inside' that he has done wrong when he behaves like a xxxx
 
what exactly did you want from your thread QB:confused:, you say you don't want advice but you must have known from the title alone you were going to get a reaction and people who don't agree with 'a good pasting' were going to offer alternatives.
As Renvers said a 'good pasting' translates to a beating in pretty much anyone's book, and while that may not be what you intend to do you obviously worded your title and post to give that impression, people reacted accordingly and now you act all offended:rolleyes:
 
Oberon said:
I'm not really into hitting but opening a can of whoop-ass to me is when I start raising my voice.

The word, "Oi" has magical powers......

My horses (and dog and son and hubby) are much more affected by that :D

I also flap my arms around when I get really mad :eek:.

I've shouted at the dog before now and managed to clear a beach of people :p.

One big guy came up to me afterwards and said he was about ready to "SIT DOWN" when I shouted it :D.
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I hav this effect :D Sorted a bar brawl at the hotel I used to work at by walking into the middle of the room and doing my best terrier you are in sooo much trouble voice ''SIT DOWN'' then guilty voice which has the terrier upside down in seconds ''what on earth are you doing boys....'' the police raid squad watched from the doorway and offered to hire me on the spot :D
 
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