Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

So I'll just add a bit more...
A newly started youngster will no doubt have had some work put into establishing what is considered to be a "good" contact and maybe even a soft mouth. I know a chiffney might be what some need to make them safe, but what effect is it going to have on that new young mouth? Surely that might give even the conventional/common sense... whatever... among us some pause for thought?
 
he best person around horses that I have ever met is a horse driver.Over the years he has handled and broken them all.Old, young, small,tall, quiet and not so quiet.I have never heard him raise his voice let alone a hand to a horse.The all leave him with lovely manners as well.
 
There is nothing wrong with taking a full faculty learner from birth to backing, allowing it to 'be a horse' with similar youngsters, who also know nothing, and teach it nothing.

Except it doesn't work.
 
Tinypony said:
So I'll just add a bit more...
A newly started youngster will no doubt have had some work put into establishing what is considered to be a "good" contact and maybe even a soft mouth. I know a chiffney might be what some need to make them safe, but what effect is it going to have on that new young mouth? Surely that might give even the conventional/common sense... whatever... among us some pause for thought?
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It's an interesting thought actually, and one I hadn't considered.

However, I don't recall any of the youngstock I've been around having a chiffney in come to think of it..... If needed it would be a bridle or a controller.
 
amymay said:
It's an interesting thought actually, and one I hadn't considered.

However, I don't recall any of the youngstock I've been around having a chiffney in come to think of it..... If needed it would be a bridle or a controller.
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I treat all of my horses' mouths like some sort of precious and delicate thing Amymay. They are so sensitive that they can nip the top off a thistle avoiding the nasty spines, I try to hold that in my mind when I ride. A young horse's mouth is so soft and supple that they feel the lightest twitch of our fingers down the rein. My older horse came to me with a hard mouth and I rode him bitless for a year to let his lips soften and recover before putting a bit back in. I want the most sensitive of communication with their mouths and so that's one reason why I never use any bit of metal in the mouth as a blunt instrument for control.

My Arab mare retired at 6, having been backed and ridden but never bitted. Even now at the age of 14 her mouth is small and supple like a youngsters, not stretched and rough at the corners.
 
I have avoided this thread because it was obvious where it was going and although I deplore what she is saying here I do like the OP.

However, thank goodness for the reasonable, sensible voices that have appeared on the last couple of pages.. the voices belonging to people that actually understand horses and know that violence merely begets violence and is never an answer.
 
Maybe invest in a Dually Headcollar? Interesting to see this post as happened to watch a re run of one of Monty Roberts sessions last night & he worked on a mare who had incredibly bad manners on the ground - similar to your horse!
24mins later she was a different horse. Maybe see if you can find the video online somewhere - the horse used was called Lizzy
 
Whatever the tool, the handler needs to know how to use it correctly. Then consistency is the key. No wierd and wonderful anthropomorphic stuff about pretending not to like the horse for a week. Just like the horse because he's yours and treat him fairly and consistently. And never, ever, let him move in on you and crowd you. (If you want a hug approach him with respect to do it). No drama, just calmly make sure that he never crowds you, not even when you're both relaxed, and he'll be very different in short time. A good handler would take about 10 minutes to stop his undesirable behaviour, without force, anger or a chiffney in the mouth. Problem is, that's only the start of things going back to where they were - because the owners seldom maintain the consistent and fair approach that a good handler sets up. Our horses are reflections of us and the way we treat them.
 
TinyPony - your replies are spot on. I totally agree with you. Its how you are with the horse, if you're calm and relaxed then I strongly believe this will wear off on the horse. If your stressed, shouty, agressive then why shouldnt the horse be.
 
MagicMelon said:
TinyPony - your replies are spot on. I totally agree with you. Its how you are with the horse, if you're calm and relaxed then I strongly believe this will wear off on the horse. If your stressed, shouty, agressive then why shouldnt the horse be.
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But I don't believe QB is shouty & aggressive usually - I could be wrong but it's not the impression I get from other posts...
 
guido16 said:
I have had a few big beasties that have had a hiding from me. Well timed and quick. Not a prolonged attack, just a bloody hiding. The same way a dominant mare would do to an out of control herd member. They have then, by me, been sent into a corner on their own to realise the herd leader has kicked them out the herd. Gives them time to realise its not a safe place to be and a change of attitude is required.
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What you do clearly works for you, but arguably not for the reasons you state. Do horses really see people as other horses (dominant or otherwise)? It's one thing to use it as an analogy, but I personally don't want to be considered literally as a fellow herd member! Does a horse that you have driven away really think he's been separated from his herd? I doubt it. Making comparisons with herd interactions has a certain attraction, but the success of your punishment can be explained simply by the fact that you did something aversive (something he didn't like) to him in direct and immediate response to his misbehaviour.

So I will now sit back and get ready for the pasting from you all....popcorn anyone?
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Nah, just a cut-n-pasting. ;)
 
I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... ;)

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ;)) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her :rolleyes:

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc ;) :D
 
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Tinypony said:
"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?
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Horses, who live in the present moment, have no concept of holding a grudge - which is what the quote above implies. It suggests a deliberate withholding of any positive reinforcement over an extended period of time, no matter what behaviour/attitude is offered by the horse. I would be surprised if this produced any beneficial changes in behaviour at all. Much better, surely, to react to what the horse is doing moment-by-moment, and at least give him opportunities to be rewarded for doing good and punished (though less and less, if done correctly) for doing bad? :confused:
 
Black Beastie said:
What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial respect.
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Well, I'm not sure i've ever been quite so lost for words........

A person with this mentality has no place around horses, or any animal for that matter:(
 
Black Beastie said:
Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other field by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... ;)
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Funnily enough my yearling was doing just that this morning with a rope Id dropped on the floor :D:D Sadly it wasnt going that well for her as she was just hitting herself in the head with the clip.
 
Black Beastie said:
What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial respect. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding
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Unbelievable.
 
Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.

Have I ever drawn blood from a horse, Nope, have I ever cause unnecessary suffering, Nope so go ahead and judge all you like, my horses are happy and healthy and have never suffered abuse, just well times smack when over the line :)
 
fburton said:
Horses, who live in the present moment, have no concept of holding a grudge - which is what the quote above implies. It suggests a deliberate withholding of any positive reinforcement over an extended period of time, no matter what behaviour/attitude is offered by the horse. I would be surprised if this produced any beneficial changes in behaviour at all. Much better, surely, to react to what the horse is doing moment-by-moment, and at least give him opportunities to be rewarded for doing good and punished (though less and less, if done correctly) for doing bad? :confused:
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For the purposes of debate I can see the sense in it.

You aren't punishing the horse over a week, you are excluding it from your space and from the affection and warm interaction it normally gets. I did something similar with my current youngster for a couple of sessions in response to him trying to bully me into submission. In response the horse tries to win you over again, is generally a bit unsure and seeking to please and you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it.
It goes hand in hand with driving the horse away, which I also did when he was aggressive in the field (he was challenging we he came to me!!) I used whatever means were to hand to drive him away from me and the other horses who I was fussing and in a couple of occasions giving hay to unless he approached me with some respect and didn't try to drive me away.
 
Black Beastie said:
I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... ;)

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ;)) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her :rolleyes:

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc ;) :D
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Spot on. A horse must respect humans. Some just need a growl some a smack others a whole lot more. But there are very few Horsemen who can actually do right by the horse.
 
Bad behaviour has to be stopped before it gets dangerous.

In general I tend to agree with Black Beastie although I am certainly not advocating beating a horse. I've seen my mares get very dominant with their foals when they step out of line. Horses do not have the same reasoning powers as humans so it is wrong to ascribe human thinking to them. What works with one horse may not work with another so I hope the OP finds the right solution for her horse.

Capriole, my foal also did the same thing - picked up a lead rope, cantered off round the field with the clip smacking him between the eyes.
 
amymay said:
Well, I'm not sure i've ever been quite so lost for words........

A person with this mentality has no place around horses, or any animal for that matter:(
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Well I have been around horses for 25+ years, come from a horsey family who has been in different disciplines for years and have had all types of animals and have to say they have all lived happy and long lives ;)

So I dont really think your in the position to judge but go ahead if you really wanna :D
 
Queenbee said:
He needs a pasting.
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I don't think there is any excuse or reason why you feel you need to give your horse a "pasting"!! or any type of violence!!! Don't do it. You will in the long run, come off worse!!! If you're at a busy yard, maybe he needs a quieter life, where's you have more of a 1 on 1 with him without too many distractions. Ensure you have a proper routine with him day in, day out and have patience, I know that may seem difficult right now, but I speak from experience, it does work!!
 
Black Beastie said:
Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.

Have I ever drawn blood from a horse, Nope, have I ever cause unnecessary suffering, Nope so go ahead and judge all you like, my horses are happy and healthy and have never suffered abuse, just well times smack when over the line :)
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So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?
 
Wagtail said:
So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?
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Nope not back pedalling at all Just asking a question from you folks who say you dont condone violence to horses but what is a smack with a hand or a whip then??

You obviously only read the bits of my post that you thought you could twist and thats fine if you want to go ahead and do that, no isues from me I am happy in myself and my horse management so no skin off my nose really. I didnt condone beating a horse but giving one a well timed lesson is completely different to what your trying to imply Im condoning ;)

Anyways I have said my piece QB I hope you get your boy back inhand and start to have fun again. Off to work :D
 
Amymay, year after year, similar threads to this one come on with folk having problems with bolshy, aggressive youngsters.

Then the wiseacres, start on about whether it's better to batter the horse with a whip, crop or blue pipe, whether to use a bridle, chiffney or pressure head collar.

Same crap year after year.

Occasionally, someone like Tinypony comes along with some horse sense, but very few listen.

Same people, same methods, same mistakes, same results.
 
Black Beastie said:
Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.
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You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip
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The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course. Used a stick from the ground - never. Used a stick on board - yes.

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal. The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
 
But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal. The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.[/QUOTE]

But if you were in a situation where the horse could seriously injure you, which you have managed to avoid but it was inevitably going to happen in the future surely you would be preparing yourself. :)
 
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