Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

There are the types of horses that are just trying it on & need a good smack to be put in their place, such as the ones described by sophiebailey and madhoss.

Then there are the ones that are truly dominant & need a different approach, which is what Ben sounds like. You need to get his trust & respect, you need to be the herd leader, and beating him into submission is not, IMO, the way to do it.

You say it has worked before so why not again? Because its a temporary fix, and the more you do this, each time he goes back, the worse he will be and you will end up with a dangerous horse who can't be handled at all.

I think Jeeve & Spike have got it right, you need to re-establish your herd leader status with lots of moving him round on a small circle, stopping him, changing direction (using your body language), backing him up, using the stick as a threat but not actually hitting him with it, from what you've described, I think hitting him will make him rebel far worse. Its difficult to describe exactly what I mean, it's almost an IH approach but without the softly-softly part of it. When you're moving him round, you need to be physically firm until he starts listening to your body language, it's important to get that right too.

Good luck :)
 
JennBags said:
QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

Good luck :)
Click to expand...

She didn't

She asked for vibes from us, the only advice she asked for was how to get herself to actually do it. At no point in the OP did she doubt it was right.
 
I agree with Jennbags - there's firm and authoritative handling and then there's beating and the latter rarely works. I have lost my rag with my older horse on occasion when he barges out of his stable and that has stopped him doing it again (that time) but he will still do it the next day and the next!

I have a bolshy 3 and a half yo gelding - not backed yet - and yes he's had an elbow in his face when he's gone for a nip but then he's always been a bit of a biter and he generally gets an elbow 'block' and we just carry on. I praise him for good behaviour and I am firm with him when he tries to leg it when being lead - I 'won' a particular battle like this the other day as he tried to tank off - he got a sharp tug on the rope (a bit of a growl) and I was not going to let go (I spun him round). I knew if I let him go then that'd be it and he'd have learnt a new 'trick'. After me winning this he lead pretty nicely the rest of the way.

He has never (so far) reared up but he has thrown himself about in all sorts of contortions andin the main I just try remain calm, ignore it to some degree other than a sharp tug on his headcollar/rope and I'll back him up out of my space. I have had some very helpful advice from a trainer near me though who is a bit NHish but very firm and fair. She doesn't take any crap from horses but she says the behaviour is all down to what WE have taught them. A horse isn't stubborn, evil, scheming, she says essentially they're not awfully bright! lol.

She has worked with many difficult horses and the techniques are pretty much the same - clear commands and repetitive training essentially. Shame she's not nearer to you as she would probably be able to help you.

Good luck with however you go forward.
 
I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.
 
siennamum said:
I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.
Click to expand...




absolutely agreed, if more people did this then maybe there wouldn't be so many posts on " My new horse is being dangerous"
I haven't got the confidence myself therefore would not buy a youngster but fair play to you OP and good luck!
 
Bet of luck OP- my youngster is mainly perfect, but has his moments where he tries to see how far he can push me. It starts tiny, he'll move a foot once told to stand still, but if not corrected straight away, escalates to fidgeting, looking for trouble, stomping about etc. he just looks for that one time I dont correct him to do so. He's had a few slaps and smacks, but I have te advantage of having bred the big brat, and he had most of his tantrums when he was small enough to handle easily- the best day was when he chucked himself on the floor, and I took the opportunity to place my foot on his neck and made him stay down. He hasn't done it since, and it hasn't made him fearful of me when at any time- in fact I often have to pick out his feet with him lying down as he can't be bothered to get up!

He pushes a lot more with dad than me, as dad is almost 70 now and though he has handled him since he was born, is generally softer with him than I am- so dad has numerous broken zips, has had a lovely black eye and trodden toes. I do occasionally step in, but baby is never nasty ever and quiet for dad to handle so have left him to it in the main part.

You know, it's always the really soft owners on my yard that have really bolshy horses, and some are just plain bad mannered- its because nothing is reinforced with them.

Good luck :)
 
And it has worked with him before, so y wont it work now?
Click to expand...

Well, clearly it hasn't worked, since the aim is to stop the behaviour, and the behaviour is still happening. At what point the in cycle of beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks then tells you again they don't like your approach, beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks... will you try a different approach, I wonder?

Most of the worst violence in the world seems to me to happen because someone in a respected position has said "this thing you think is bad and that makes you really uncomfortable is actually fine and is the only way". Just brutalises the person doing it so that they think it's normal and everybody does it that way (they don't) and increases the likelihood of escalating retaliation.

However, it sounds as if you're now happy and reassured that you'll have to keep doing it, so I wonder why you posted? Maybe you really do wonder if there's a better way and you are uncertain about whether you really are the sort of person who thinks a sustained attack on an animal as a planned a premediated punishment is OK.
 
Queenbee I'd def listen tothe off forum advice you've been given.
Far better to have one definite, firm lesson than be constantly having small nagging sessionsfrom here to eternity.

Hope it all works out :)
 
. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket
Click to expand...

I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this :)

You know, it's always the really soft owners on my yard that have really bolshy horses, and some are just plain bad mannered- its because nothing is reinforced with them.
Click to expand...

I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle :)
 
OK not pretending to be a horse expert here but. . .

Boundaries are important for any horse, and that requires there to be consequences for bad behavior. However, it needs to be very clear what action caused the consequence, it should be proportionate and stop immediately the required behavior is shown and that behavior praised.

Also it's best if they don't realize it's coming from you. I have been shown something called the 'elbow of god' to use for nipping. You don't look at the horse and boff them on the nose (not too hard) with your elbow when they go for a nip. They stop surprised and you immediately pat them and praise. The idea is they don't even realise it is you.

So please, please don't beat up on your horse.

Paula
 
The mad TB said:
I used to carry a short whip (like a jumping crop) and if he barged past whilst ignoring the headcollar he would get a tap, funnily enough I never had to ask twice!
Click to expand...

This, I had TB years ago who, when I got her really didn't have a clue how to walk in hand, she would leap about, barge in front and be a general pain in the a***e, I took a schooling whip out a couple of times, and just rested it across her chest, then when she went to put herself infront of me shoulder, she would get a tap (not a hit) She just couldn't work out where it was coming from. I only had to take the stick out twice and our problems were over!
 
I now have a 6 year old ish, he was 4 when I bought him, I'm lucky that he is not a dominant horse and just wants to be liked by everyone, he reared up with me once in hand in the first week, he got a very stern telling off, all I had to do was shout and growl, he looked genuinely shocked, he never did it again. I really can't advise you on your boy, all I can say is good luck but I agree, be very careful before picking a fight with him, that you may not win!
 
jeeve said:
I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
Click to expand...

This! "A pasting" doesn't do any good to either you or the horse. You need to be consistent, respond to negative behaviour with appropriate response - not loose your temper and beat him up. Do less sooner.....keep him busy and don't forget to reward good behaviour!! Youngsters, whether horse or human! are always testing the boundaries....a long (at least 12') leadrope is essential. And learn to control his hindquarters. Although the P word is hated nowadays his first 3 "games" are essential!!!
 
If the trainer who backed him is suggesting a ''good pasting'' then its no wonder the horse is behaving how he is. He's clearly had steps missed out in his education, and those blanks have been filled in with slaps and shouting from this so called trainer.

You need a new trainer. A good pasting it not going to resolve this issue, its only going to make him wary of humans.

You need to learn proper groundwork and how the horses mind works in order to make them want to do what we want and not do what we dont - but not through a thrashing :eek:
 
I am actually gobsmacked that these so called trainers of yours are well respected if this is the advice they give.
You need to do some proper groundwork with a suitable trainer, if you try to beat this horse then I fear you are going to get hurt, possibly badly. You need to get into a different mindset.

Even if you won the first battle there will be many more unless you change tactics!

You came asking for support but I cannot support giving a horse a pasting!
 
jeeve said:
I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
Click to expand...

This ^^ its a time for brains over brawn ... Ditto all the comments about increased training on the ground and nipping behaviour in the bud. Maybe get professional help from someone other than the trainer who backed him?
 
I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.
 
Last edited:
OP - my feelings on this are simple, you know your horse & your trainers know your horse, if you respect their judgement and know that these actions are thoroughly considered & measured and are happy it's the right action for your horse then just get cracking!

I don't agree with beating animals but if every other avenue has been explored and all other attempts have failed then sometimes some tough love is the only answer, I agree with a previous reply though that these reprimands need to be a short sharp shock timed perfectly - if you are even a second too late you're likely to do more harm than good.

My horse is a big boy - he's almost 17hh and he's very broad too. He once bite me...once. As soon as his teeth made contact with my person I bopped him right on teh end of his nose - to this day I don't know where my speed came from but he has NEVER bitten again. Similarly he went through a phgase of barging out of the stable - he didn't care if I was stood in the way he'd come straight over me. Not good. Anyhoo, one day my (male) instructor was stood in the doorway with the stable door wide open, Bailey didnt make a move towards that door - he didnt dare barge my instructor (who has a very authoritive prescence about him without being aggressive or even raising his voice!) and I knew he was taking the pee with me so the next time he barged me I was ready for him - I smacked him across the chest with the leadrope and ran at him waving my arms and growling (looked like a lunatic!) - he was so shocked he backed straight up into the back corner of his stable and he has never barged since. If he ever looks like he's even thinking about it I just say 'ah' and he'll stop in his tracks.

I'll hasten to add my boy is a bit of a lover not a fighter so it is fairly easy for me to be the dominant 'herd' member - I appreciate this isn't the case with some horses.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but please remember if you lose your temper you've lost the argument. :)
 
ask yourself what kind of leader you respect most before you decide which course of action to take QB, a leader who beats you into submission and leads through fear of reprisal or one who works with you and instills trust ?
 
The more I think about this the more I feel for the poor horse. You have two women giving you advice, you say you have been emotionally distant to him by choice when first buying him, but also have been nice to him. You have tried this and that, he is recently backed.....does he have any consistency in his life and routine? Is he confused by conflicting actions and responses. If you build yourself up to go to him in a mood to fight, then that is what your body language will reflect isn't it? He will then respond to that, either through fear or through not wishing to be hurt and then all he will do is "prove you are right about him".

You must be consistent with him and find a way forward without resorting to violence. You cannot ever build any trusting or long-standing relationship by use of violence and physical pain over another. These two women you talk of may be very well-respected in their chosen field, but the fact is anyone who runs out of ideas resorts to violence as in their view, that must be the only way forward if the horse isn't listening to them.

I have two Rottweilers, my eldest, a female, has never been a moment's trouble. The youngest, a boy now 6 and wonderful, turned into a horrible oik aged 13 months. He would leap up at me, growl, push me around etc - having been the perfect dog up until then. He was trying to move up the social ladder basically. Most dog books will say "yelp/turn your back on them to show disapproval" blah blah blah - I can honestly say all those served to do was drive Bailey on in his quest. Many a time I was in despair as I had never had a dog like him...so I turned it around on him, whenever he became gobby I spoke to him very calmly and kept telling him no, but also giving lots of distractions. It took time, but it did work. Not every book knows how to deal with every animal, because they are not robots. Bailey is a very loving and affectionate dog, but it is almost as though he just didn't know how to handle his hormones (I did help it along by having him neutered as well). Getting into a fight would not have worked, I would have lost. I fear this is a similar situation with your boy - he is confused and anger/yelling/beating will make him worse and destroy ANY chance you have of building a relationship with him.

My advice would be to get someone in who has lots of experience of handling youngsters and start from the very beginning with him and his emotions...
 
Ibblebibble said:
ask yourself what kind of leader you respect most before you decide which course of action to take QB, a leader who beats you into submission and leads through fear of reprisal or one who works with you and instills trust ?
Click to expand...

This is a good point though I don't think OP has any intention of actually beating her horse I think it's more a case of physical reinforcement of her requests.

I would also add, however, in the wild the dominant member of the herd will give warnings etc to the jumped up whipper snappers but if these warnings are not heeded they are backed up with an appropriate action ie a swift bite or kick - again it's about timing, not about inflicting pain.

You need to gain your horses respect and just beating him will not do this but asking him a question and giving him guidance regarding the correct answer to that question will :)
 
JennBags said:
I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this :)



I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle :)
Click to expand...

Hi JennBags, it wasn't aimed at your post. Just a general observation that sometimes (as you have said) a couple of sessions which pull the horse up short are of more use than months of faffing, which I suspect happens.
 
I suppose those of us in this position (I am too, but already know pasting won't work on my lad and it's just not in me to do it) have the same choices as any other animal. Fight, flight or avoid.

Flight's not an option or we'll always be bottom of the pecking order, which won't get us the result we want. Fight won't work as the horse is bigger than us. Which leaves us with avoid. I'm not going to avoid the horse or avoid doing what I need to do with him, but I AM going to work in another way for now (on a lunge line and cavesson) so I can send him away when he does something I don't like. I'll come back to working in close contact if/when he's behaving using the new method. I need to re-establish control, and after all my hard work of the past couple of weeks, it's a big disappointment.

If that doesn't work, I think it'll be time to bring in some outside help. Heaven forbid I become a 'my new horse is dangerous' person! I never thought this would happen to me by the way, as I'm calm and confident, bought a horse that, although showed a bit of attitude, did not appear in any way nasty, and very in charge of my two GSDs (one of which was an extremely difficult pup, and is now an angel). This is already the biggest challenge I've faced because of the intent to take charge behind it, and I think because it was a surprise. I also know I could have handled it better and been firmer, so it's all uphill from here.
 
I knew a horse like this.

He went away for breaking in by a local dressage trainer and came back sensitive and ill mannered.

Over then next few years he had occasional explosions under saddle and inhand.

He badly hurt his owner and people said he was possessed and needed a strong man to teach him a lesson.

Owner got the vet out first who found he was riddled with grade 4 ulcers that had been causing him pain for years.

Vet reckoned they first started with the stress of being broken in......
 
With my Tank.....

When I moved to my current yard and was in my last year at Uni, he started being really bad leading to the field. He was 3.

He was barging, rearing, jumping on me and pulling.

We started off with head collar and lead rope, carried loosely in my hand.
Then the rope 'BHS style', carried in both hands.
Then I wore gloves.
Then added a whip.
Then a bridle.
Then a lunge line.
Then I wore a hat too.

He was getting worse and I was getting scared. I had taught this horse everything from a feral 2 year old to a lovely and well mannered youngster. It was all unravelling :(.

One day he reared up and knocked my hat off.

I accidently dropped the rope from one of my hands. I just stood there, utterly defeated, breathed deep and my shoulders sagged.

He stood there and looked at me with this strange look on his face.

And I realised what was happening.

I was so stressed from moving to a new yard, fitting in, finishing Uni, being broke, worrying about the future......

It was me :eek:

I was the problem.

I was the only person who'd ever spent time with him and he'd learnt to trust me.

But all of a sudden I was acting 'weird' to him. My body language must have been off, I must have smelled differently, acted differently.

And I was making him crazy :(

From then on we went back to the head collar and lead rope. I made sure I was relaxed and kept my breathing steady.

And there has never been a problem since :)
 
My horse came to me as the spawn of the devil - literally evil!! He was 6 years old and had walked all over 6 people before hand - broken 3 peoples legs, pinned someone against a wall and kicked his owner in the head. Not really sure why i bought him - he wasnt even cheap - but i could see his potential!! First two weeks he was awesome - then the devil returned, bucked, reared, spun, would get me off and kicked me in the head twice before bolting off.....so i got mad!!

He had to be led in a chifney otherwise he'd bolt off, he had to be tied up in a certain place so he couldnt pin you, crush you etc and to ride he was hell!!! But for some reason, i liked him!! Had to be megs strict with him. If i asked him to stand, if he slightly shifted his weight, i'd say 'stand' in a firm voice, if he moved, he had a tap on the shoulder. This in itself made a massive difference - suprisingly. I think he knew i wouldnt take any sh** off him. Riding him, i had to stick to ways he was best to start with as one strop was a death wish, but we persisted, massive praise at the smallest things and he'd get a firm 'no' if he did the smallest thing wrong! Only once did i flip at him - i actually bit him on the nose cuz he chucked his head up so high i couldnt get his bridle on and he kicked his front leg out at me - felt instantly bad and not sure what came over me but i was livid at him, but after that, he never chucked his head up again. He is now an amazing horse, doesnt everything i ask of him, is a real sweety and now most peoples favourite horse on the yard. I may have be mean to him at times but if i hadnt been, he would of been at slaughter. I've been really lucky that i havent been hurt by him, ive been knocked out 4 times by him but luckily unhurt otherwise.

Be careful, always have someone around and know where you are, what time you'll be back and be firm!

Its nice to give my lad fuss and love but even now, if he even slightly shifts his weight once he's been asked to stand he still gets told off as the smallest of things could lead him to return to devil-hood!! x
 
I completely agree with the use of a bit or chifney with lunge line hat and gloves in these situations.
The short sharpe shock of a smack timed perfectly really does help establish what is in acceptable behaviour as does the use of mr elbow and body language.
What I wouldn't do is go into this situation angry yourself and ready for a fight, you're less likely to get the desired outcome if you let yourself be ruled by emotion, it would be much better if you stayed calm.
 
amymay said:
I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.
Click to expand...

Ditto.
 
Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand? You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes. Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top