Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

Wagtail said:
So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?
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This is what I am having trouble with - some people seem to have a different definition of "a hiding" or "a pasting".

To me, a hiding or a pasting involves repeated hitting of the horse; which in my mind is pointless and cruel.

I do however think that a well-timed one-off slap, either with a hand or a stick, can be a useful tool. This is NOT the same as giving a horse a hiding, or a pasting.

Tinypony, another one here who has absolute respect for your posts above - you have got it right :)
 
amymay said:
You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:



The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course. Used a stick from the ground - never. Used a stick on board - yes.

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal. The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
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No Im afraid you need to look at the mood in which you have decided to take it ;) Now THAT is an argument that could go on for ages lol :D

Everyone from different areas says things a different way, maybe some of us are just more open to not putting words in folks mouths becasue they couldnt possibley have a different meaning of a word from what I do, I mean come on I am always right, right??? :D :D
 
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amymay said:
But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal. The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
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I don't think for 1 second QB is planning on 'beating' her youngster.

I think some people are only picking up on the language used rather than the actual intent behind those words. Everyone has phrased something wrong at some point in their life, jeez.

Black Beastie - I understand the point you are trying to make and FWIW I agree (though have to say I haven't hit with a whip from the ground, unless you include a tickle with a lunge whip?!). My horse has never had a 'beating' from me but he's a big hunk of horse flesh and he's had a slap on the neck or shoulder for sure and he's a lovely well-adjusted, well mannered boy so it obviously hasn't done any lasting damage! ;)
 
amymay said:
You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:



The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course. Used a stick from the ground - never. Used a stick on board - yes.

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal. The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
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I agree with this. As the owner of a 17hh horse who has in the past been abused with a whip and punched in the face I can categorically say a human can inflict tremendous damage.
It has taken 2 years for my horse to trust me and he has bitten me very aggressively and threatened with his front and hind legs and I have never retaliated other than a shoulder slap which got me bitten badly.
Today he is the most loving sweet horse and unrecognisable. Had I 'hit' him I know we would still be battling it out today. Trust and respect is earnt from clear messages and consistent handling. We are human not horses so our place is to read the language not try to emulate it with a whip.
 
Black Beastie said:
No Im afraid you need to look at the mood in which you have decided to take it
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No, I merely read what you'd written and was shocked.

Ah, you've edited - so can't respond to the other points, more than to say that if people can't articulate what they are trying to say - then I can't be blamed for misinterpreting. However, I do hold my hand up to speed reading on occasion, and being mistaken in what I've read - for which I always apologise.

I also didn't make the assumption that you beat your animals - far from it. I was just surprised that you seriously questioned the amount of damage that could be done by a whip in the hands of someone with the intent to inflict some serious damage.
 
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Sarah1 said:
I don't think for 1 second QB is planning on 'beating' her youngster.

I think some people are only picking up on the language used rather than the actual intent behind those words. Everyone has phrased something wrong at some point in their life, jeez.

Black Beastie - I understand the point you are trying to make and FWIW I agree (though have to say I haven't hit with a whip from the ground, unless you include a tickle with a lunge whip?!). My horse has never had a 'beating' from me but he's a big hunk of horse flesh and he's had a slap on the neck or shoulder for sure and he's a lovely well-adjusted, well mannered boy so it obviously hasn't done any lasting damage! ;)
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Sarah1 may I just say if you follow the thread Amymay is responding to BlackBeasties post not QB. As was I .
 
YasandCrystal said:
Sarah1 may I just say if you follow the thread Amymay is responding to BlackBeasties post not QB. As was I .
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Apologies then, I though Amymay was refering to the words used in the original post as well as Black Beasties reply.

The second sentence of my reply didn't specifically refer to AmyMay - it was a general observation :)
 
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amymay said:
No, I merely read what you'd written and was shocked.
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So you automatically go on the attack, strange reaction from someone who walks away from a fight........... ;) :D

Again you havent read that statement or the bit after it which is clearly in jest i mean i even added smileys for goodness sake and who cant tell what a smiley is saying. :D

We are all different and we all have different ways of doing stuff. I take what I see on the net with a pinch of salt as I KNOW everyone is different and there are no gospels in dealing with horses. I dont go looking for the bad in peoples posts as Id be amighty grumpy chick if I did, And I think a few folks should remember that then forum land might be a better place to be :D
 
Sarah1 said:
Apologies then, I though Amymay was refering to the words used in the original post as well as Black Beasties reply.

The second sentence of my reply didn't specifically refer to AmyMay - it was a general observation :)
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sorry I quoted the whole reply, but meant to refer to the first sentence ;)
 
JennBags said:
This is what I am having trouble with - some people seem to have a different definition of "a hiding" or "a pasting".

To me, a hiding or a pasting involves repeated hitting of the horse; which in my mind is pointless and cruel.

I do however think that a well-timed one-off slap, either with a hand or a stick, can be a useful tool. This is NOT the same as giving a horse a hiding, or a pasting.

Tinypony, another one here who has absolute respect for your posts above - you have got it right :)
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That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.
 
Not getting into the argument...

Good luck- firm no nonsence but fair would be my approach lead him with a lunge line then you can give him space to keep yourself safe but you've still got him - i swear by my dooley. Loads of ground work respecting your space but willing to follow.

Let us know how you get on?
 
kirstykate said:
But if you were in a situation where the horse could seriously injure you, which you have managed to avoid but it was inevitably going to happen in the future surely you would be preparing yourself. :)
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There is never ANY justification for beating an animal. Ever. A couple of hard smacks at most to drive it away from you, if your in danger, a (single!) slap/elbow etc to get it out of your space if they're are being particularlyy bulshy but never beating.

'Beating' (pasting/leathering/thrashing etc) is repetatively hitting, usually in anger. Absolutely no place in working with horses.

But you do see it regularly: people holding their horse tightly by the leadrope whilst they 'punish' it by hit it over and over again, often round in circels. It never acheives anything than a very frightened horse :(
 
Black Beastie said:
No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types intorduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.
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Yes, and one also sees a lot of bullying going on, especially when we keep changing the composition of the herd (which is not a very natural scenario). Just because horses act violently towards each other in some situations doesn't automatically mean that we are obliged to behave in the same way or use bullying tactics. If we can achieve the desired result with more measured actions, surely it is good horsemanship to do so. The best achieve results using minimal force and unpleasantness - doing whatever it takes to change behaviours and attitudes, but no more than that. Going after a horse in the manner of the field bully is massive overkill.

So what should we be doing instead?

Good horsemanship looks unspectacular and quiet for the most part. Reprimands are swift and over in the blink of an eye; emotions remain on the level. Fights are not 'picked', they are actively avoided wherever possible. This is pretty much essential when dealing with some horses that possess a latent aggressiveness that can escalate beyond anything one person can safely deal with. However, I can understand why some people might believe that fights are there to be won when they have never had to deal with extreme aggression.

There's a lot of talk about "pecking orders" and the need for the human to be at the top. But do we really want the hassle of emulating a dominant horse just to make a spurious (because we aren't horses) point about our position in some notional herd structure? Sure, it's possible to "dominate" most horses extremely easily. We can make them behave submissively easily enough and call this "respect". Easy, at least, until we encounter the rarer individual that is p*ssed off by our antics and is prepared to turn things into a real battle. So then we just have to "do what it takes" to out-dominate this kind of horse, right? Well, no - not right - because the whole mess could have been avoided if we'd simply concentrated on reinforcing the behaviours we want, punishing the behaviours we don't want with minimal fuss, and stop kidding ourselves that we are honorary horses.

The fact that the simple approach does work, spectacularly well when the handler's skill and timing are well honed, must tell us something!
 
amymay said:
You wrote it not me, I reacted not attacked........




Depends on what your definition of fight is, doesn't it?
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Oh god your really just wanting a full blown diva scratching cat fight AM lol!! :D

Honestly we arent going to agree so why not just simmer down, have a cuppa and step away from the keyboard since you have decided to take everything I type as a personal affront. My work place bekons so have fun starting a fight with yourself and enjoy your day :D
 
Black Beastie said:
Oh god your really just wanting a full blown diva scratching cat fight AM lol!! :D

Honestly we arent going to agree so why not just simmer down, have a cuppa and step away from the keyboard since you have decided to take everything I type as a personal affront. My work place bekons so have fun starting a fight with yourself and enjoy your day :D
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Well, you're amusing - if nothing else....:rolleyes:
 
kirstykate said:
So what would you do with a young horse in this situtaion?
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Give it company for starters.

Give it a job to do.

Give it firm, consistent handling.

Get professional help (that didn't involve beating or carrot sticks if I was genuinly struggling).

Send it for meat if all became too much:D
 
I remember years ago when my new mare was being a nightmare to hack out on her own, spinning, rearing, running backwards. My advice from several people on the yard, including yard owner, was to give her a pasting. :rolleyes:

My solution was to get off her, and walk her past her nappy places, then get back on (with some difficulty as she trotted around me!). The result? Times when I had to get off became fewer and fewer. Within a week she was hacking out alone with no napping at all. She just needed to know that I took her fears seriously. I gained her respect and trust.
 
siennamum said:
You aren't punishing the horse over a week, you are excluding it from your space and from the affection and warm interaction it normally gets.
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So you're withholding something the horse likes... That sounds suspiciously like punishment in my book (of the negative sort). But even if the horse doesn't perceive it that way, you are deliberately throwing the reward option out of your toolbox (and keeping it out for a whole week!). That's different from what you went on to write - "you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it" - which I have no problem with.
 
amymay said:
Give it company for starters.

Give it a job to do.

Give it firm, consistent handling.

Get professional help (that didn't involve beating or carrot sticks if I was genuinly struggling).

Send it for meat if all became too much:D
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:eek::eek:

Love it:D:D and oh so true!!

I hate to say it but some horses do just need it, weather it be from a human or other horses. We used to have 2 mares which would put anything in its place and it was really quite brutal to watch which would normally do the trick but there has been the odd occasion when it has taken more and the sad thing is that the horses are normally in this state because of bad handling by us humans:(
 
Sarah1 said:
Where? :confused:
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If I ever saw it, the person administering the treatment would get an earful. However, I have heard second hand reports from others who have witnessed this. I have also heard people bragging about giving their horse a hiding, like it's something to be proud of!
 
eggs said:
Bad behaviour has to be stopped before it gets dangerous.
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Yes, sure as eggs is eggs. If one is lucky enough to bring up a horse from a foal, as you are, bad behaviour can be nipped in the bud at the first sign - and should be - before it develops into something that is harder to deal with.
 
During the 45 years since I first put a foot in a stirrup, I've noticed that horse people who are confident in their ability don't tend to slap and shout. They're the one's that have inspired me because of what they achieve.

Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because it almost justify's the actions of posters for whom aggressive and ignorant management is normal.

Its not.
 
horserider

During the 45 years since I first put a foot in a stirrup, I've noticed that horse people who are confident in their ability don't tend to slap and shout. They're the one's that have inspired me because of what they achieve.

Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because it almost justify's the actions of posters for whom aggressive and ignorant management is normal.

Its not.

Nice post, and true.
 
Pale Rider said:
horserider

Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because ......
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......that was total exaggeration on her part; she knew she'd get 'copy' out of it as it was such an inflammatory title.

One would imagine that the quiet, calm and consistent handlers you mentioned would have been that right from when they first made contact with that horse and they wouldn't have allowed it to deviate from those boundaries they had set - in their calm consistent way - so whether youngster or not, the OP situation would never have arisen at all which takes us back to the beginning that it is the OP who has let her horse down, not the other way around.
 
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