Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(

Do horses really 'beat the crap out of each other', really??

Sure they might be forced to fight their corner in poached, overstocked pasture under man-made conditions but in my experience horses are quite biddable and would much rather take the line of least resistance. Their cues are beautifully subtle.

I agree that people who beat animals are generally scared of them. Animals don't have time to find out what you're scared of, they just react.
 
Maesfen said:
......that was total exaggeration on her part; she knew she'd get 'copy' out of it as it was such an inflammatory title.

One would imagine that the quiet, calm and consistent handlers you mentioned would have been that right from when they first made contact with that horse and they wouldn't have allowed it to deviate from those boundaries they had set - in their calm consistent way - so whether youngster or not, the OP situation would never have arisen at all which takes us back to the beginning that it is the OP who has let her horse down, not the other way around.
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It may well have been exaggeration on OP's part, but for young horse owners dealing with problems, what message does that give ?

Lucky for me, it was because of the example of calm and consistent mentors, that when I bought a particularly challenging 12 year old horse a while back, I was able to manage her very dangerous and explosive behaviour.
Two vets, two farriers and the YO all recommended euthanasia believing her to be beyond help.
However, she came good, she's a most genuine horse who is delightfully straightforward and fun. One vet and farrier did remark at the time, that if anyone could help her, it was having someone who was calm and patient.

If she had been given a good pasting, either her or the handler would have been badly hurt and that, for her, would have been the greatest injustice ever.
 
Can't quote on my phone but totally agree with horserider. Fear makes people aggressive in a lot of cases.
I don't for a moment think QB is aggressive, I think the choice of thread title and the use of the word pasting were unwise as they give the wrong impression.
There is ( IMO ) a vast difference between a slap on the shoulder to a pasting, which is loosing your temper and laying into your horse repeatedly.
Sensible advice from amymay, give him a job to do, give him something to think about as well
 
Wagtail said:
That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.
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One key difference between ways of "reprimanding physically" is whether the horse perceives the punisher coming from you personally or directly from his actions. If a horse swings his head to bite you and hits his mouth on your elbow which "just happens" to be in the way, he will associate his going to bite you with the unpleasant sensation rather than viewing it as a return of aggression.

I think it is better to avoid personal animosity and arrange, if possible, for the horse to self-punish. It stops the behaviour without generating any additional conflict. If you don't want to add hostility to the situation, you have to not get angry yourself, stay matter-of-fact, and when the correction is over carry on as if nothing had happened. Even when it's not possible to avoid the horse seeing the punisher coming from you - realistically most of the time - it can still be delivered in a neutral way that reduces the chance of escalation.
 
I agree. That is why using an elbow that happens to meet their nose or using a backwards slap is not perceived in the same way as a raised hand.
 
Sarah1 said:
Me too.

Kallibear actually said 'you see this regularly' but I can honestly said I've never seen this in 25+ years around horses :rolleyes:
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Sadly there is usually one at most shows. Horse refused the jump and rider fell off, so smackes it round in a circles a couple of times to 'teach it a lesson'. You can usually find at least on person with a wound up horse yanking on it's face over and over again with the head collar yelling 'will you *&$% stand up!'.

Where and when you see it very much depends on the level you're at : much less common at advanced levels because, as others have already said, it's usually due to fear and anger, which is much less common at higher levels (you'd hope!). Try going along to a local small SJ show (populated by teenages) and you'll see it quickly enough. Also large, cheaper DIY yards with a lot of novices. Or, like round here, where there are a couple of VERY poor riding schools (where the staff are rough and aggressive as standard with the poor, very tolerant horses).

I have once had it done directly in front of me (by a young friend of a friend) and put a stop to it. Sadly rather than try and learn the young girl was just sulky afterwards :(
 
I know a girl at one yard I was at who my friend witnessed return from a hack where her horse had in her words been a complete d*ck, and she proceeded to thrash him with her whip for a couple of minutes before YO ran out an put a stop to it.
 
Wagtail said:
I agree. That is why using an elbow that happens to meet their nose or using a backwards slap is not perceived in the same way as a raised hand.
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Very effective for sly nipping and such. However there are times when you want the horse to be fully aware that you're said 'Get out my space, you horrible little brat'! Although if you've got it right it should be a very rare occasion!
 
amymay said:
No, they don't. Unless put in a situation where they go in to attack mode.
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Actually, there are some horses that DO. I have one here. He can only be kept in individual turnout because he will run down and try to kill any horse that so much as looks at him the wrong way. However, these horses are abnormal and socially inept. Just like their human equivalents. Incidentally, this horse had been bought as a four year old and kept on his own in a field out of sight of other equines for a year by his novice owners. That says it all really.
 
Wagtail said:
I know a girl at one yard I was at who my friend witnessed return from a hack where her horse had in her words been a complete d*ck, and she proceeded to thrash him with her whip for a couple of minutes before YO ran out an put a stop to it.
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:(
I was once in a lesson with an instructor who took an (admittedly very lazy) cob by the noseband and beat him round in a circle for a minute (with the rider still on board) so he 'learnt to go when told' :eek: With instructors like that, no wonder there's so many poor horseman around.
 
Wagtail said:
Actually, there are some horses that DO. I have one here. He can only be kept in individual turnout because he will run down and try to kill any horse that so much as looks at him the wrong way. However, these horses are abnormal and socially inept.
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Yes, sorry - I was just generalising. And there's always the odd exception.
 
Kallibear said:
Sadly there is usually one at most shows. Horse refused the jump and rider fell off, so smackes it round in a circles a couple of times to 'teach it a lesson'. You can usually find at least on person with a wound up horse yanking on it's face over and over again with the head collar yelling 'will you *&$% stand up!'.
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A perfectly legitimate response to naughtiness, don't you know! (Seriously, it makes me cringe to see that too.)
 
fburton said:
So you're withholding something the horse likes... That sounds suspiciously like punishment in my book (of the negative sort). But even if the horse doesn't perceive it that way, you are deliberately throwing the reward option out of your toolbox (and keeping it out for a whole week!). That's different from what you went on to write - "you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it" - which I have no problem with.
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Hmm I dont think I would continue this for a whole week though, just to be confusing. More that until I get the response I want I will withdraw the level of interaction that the horse wants, and that may take some time. I would reward the hint of a correct response, to encourage the right behaviour of course. I have found this can take time, you have small victories but over a period with a particularly suspicious and dominant horse I think I do hold my ground till they make the first move, and that can be by excluding them. I may not be explaining myself very well of course - both on here and to the blooming horse.
 
siennamum said:
Hmm I dont think I would continue this for a whole week though, just to be confusing. More that until I get the response I want I will withdraw the level of interaction that the horse wants, and that may take some time. I would reward the hint of a correct response, to encourage the right behaviour of course. I have found this can take time, you have small victories but over a period with a particularly suspicious and dominant horse I think I do hold my ground till they make the first move, and that can be by excluding them. I may not be explaining myself very well of course - both on here and to the blooming horse.
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Okay, that make sense to me now - thanks for clarifying! :)
 
Tinypony said:
"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?
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I just don't understand the trainer's logic behind this?

Firstly the horse is aggressive and potentially dangerous, but at the same time is a "wuss and craves being liked"? :confused:

Secondly, the idea seems to be to take a horse that has limited social interaction with other horses, (and is therefore perhaps more reliant on its owner for such interaction) and to ignore it for a week to somehow make it what...... less needy??? Is it not possible the opposite would happen and the horse would merely crave the interaction even more? :confused:

Sorry if I'm being thick here but it doesn't seem to make sense to me? And that makes me doubt the sense of taking any of their 'advice'.
 
Ahhh she had a go at rosehip over some comments made on a thread about that poor wee girl april.

Did get a bit heated I have to say, never saw the original thread so can't comment on the apparently graphic content.
 
amymay said:
No, they don't. Unless put in a situation where they go in to attack mode.
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Quite right and if these 'mad' 'bad' 'dangerous' horses are fortunate enough to have a change of ownership it is generally followed by a complete change of personality too -uncanny that;)

When I see an old ploughman, 4ft 9 in his stocking feet, controlling a team of three using his bare hands, no whip, just barely audible clucks and whistles then I think perhaps we've lost something when it comes to horsemanship.
 
I think QB used an unfortunate turn of phrase! I know the yard and the YO very well as does another very well respected HHO'er. The YO actually does know her stuff and regularly produces young horses to a very high standard without 'beating' them. I have alot of respect for her, we have a couple of producers down here who 'beating into shape' is taken very literally and i wouldn't send my worst horse there.
I would certainly trust 'Auntie G's' methods and everytime i have been to the yard all the horses are happy and the atmosphere, horses and liveries is great, one of the best yards to be on.
 
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