Video of monitor removing fox from hounds

[weebarney]

I was told the same thing! You learn something new every day.
Anyway, I think this is rather moving away from the original topic.

True, just annoyed by the bold statement of not being able to release wild foxes/ animals that have been handled by a person.

 

[bubbilygum]

That fox was released back in a safer place I am told,as for being tame,well it looked very stressed to me whilst being carried.Personally I refuse to believe that sabs would sink so low as to use a fox in this way,but by golly I do know of many Kent bagged foxes ending up being hunted up country.

The fox appears to be urinating when first picked up... Clearly terrified (due to hounds or human? I would say hounds but who is to know?)

 

[Star_Chaser]

Sorry but having watched this all I can say is how stupid and irresponsible can that woman be. She not only put herself at risk by intervening but she also risked the fox having a swift dispatch if that was to be its fate. If someone is monitoring it should be exactly that - observation only.

I haven't been out with the hunt since I was a child but I work hunting dogs bred to kill fox and sadly since the hunting ban I have noticed an awful change in our environment. Foxes no longer have a breeding season where they are left in peace and protected by the local landowners with the hunt dispatching only for those who put the community at risk. The weakest are no longer picked off by the hounds leaving the strong to maintain a healthy population instead foxes are shot willy nilly no matter what their age or condition (feeding mothers for example) often being left to survive with horrific injuries that do not kill them straight away leaving people like myself having to clean up what is left behind, a poor and suffering creature that deserved a swift kill in a season when they are not traditionally raising young.

The downside of all these 'rescues' are that there is not enough food to provide for a natural population. I've seen foxes in winter in shocking condition purely because they are not strong enough to do more than scavenge for food.

Do you know there are more foxes killed on our roads and yet no one stops to clear them off, few stop to see if they have killed or just injured them and their remains are just left by the side of the road or middle to be squished by passing cars totally ignored by people that would otherwise raise issue with their deaths. Next time your driving take a good look at whats left on the side of the roads killed by our cars. Foxes, Badgers, birds of prey, rabbits, cats if your really lucky you might see a hedgehog but even they are rare these days with dwindling numbers.

Fox hunting serves a purpose and ok its not pretty when you see a kill but it is swift and there is a reverence given to the whole process not offered by a waiting shotgun or rifle in the hands of someone with a poor shot or a passing car on a road.

Sorry but given the choice knowing the other options I would use hounds every time.

 

[swintondesire]

Isnt it still illegal for foxs to be hunted still? . By all means hunting is great for the buzz but it is no longer done for good meaning to help look after the farmers stock. its is done for the fact of the chase. And there is a million and one wild animals that come into human contact and are released into the wild all over the world. The video looks abit fishy but things like that can happen and if the fox was in shock it would not fight to be away. I dont know how anyone could sit back and listen to the toucher of a poor animal for there enjoyment. just sick if you ask me.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, but the death is quick.

It is only a quick death if you fail to include the many minutes of flight that the fox goes through in trying to outrun the hounds first. It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.

 

[combat_claire]

I agree with Horseloaner. Very well written post.

 

[Wot_u_c]

.......

....... It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.

How little you understand the thinking process of an animal. That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them, then they would, as would most humans, acquiesce and abandon flight.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Jools1234 - I think the link i posted is for the "mobile" version of the video (posted on ipad, i think this is why) - the name of the video is 'FOX RESCUED FROM THE SNAPPING JAWS OF HOUNDS' if you want to search for it.

Fiagai - I hadn't considered previously that the monitors has planted the fox but this could very well be true, it does seem somewhat convenient that the fox just appears from nowhere and also appears to be just wandering around in the open in daylight... I'm no fox expert but it does seem odd.

the link above at the top as mobile and desktop

yes if you click on DESKTOP beside mobile at the top you will view it.




Mobile | Desktop
FOX RESCUED FROM THE SNAPPING JAWS OF HOUNDS
video
4:17 270 likes, 12 dislikes
17,124 views
Zinfandelorganic
11/23/12


Of course the fox could returned to the wild. Even if handled they do release sites all the time at tiggywinckles they have release pens which make birds and animals have very little contact before returning to wild again.

I say brave woman , might be a little risky but well done.

 

[EAST KENT]

How little you understand the thinking process of an animal. That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them, then they would, as would most humans, acquiesce and abandon flight.

Initially ,no,I know that it just does`nt register there is any real danger,but at the end,yes,definitely,animals defecate in fear,and that I have seen in the last minutes.The vast majority get clean away ,the few that are killed are hunted up close the once,so no preconceived idea of it`s fate can exist.
Animals only operate on experience..i.e. if a dog ducks to a raised hand then it has been beaten...whatever the owner says.

 

[happyhunter123]

It is only a quick death if you fail to include the many minutes of flight that the fox goes through in trying to outrun the hounds first. It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. The fox is NOT aware of itself being hunted for the majority of the time. The fox runs because that is the natural response for a wild animal when faced with noise and disturbance. The sound of the horn and the hounds means little to the fox other than a noise that needs to be moved away from. The fox would do precisely the same if it met you out walking. We must remember that hounds hunt by scent, so the fox doesn't need to be close to the hounds to be hunted. And anyway, it is not a continuous run. The fox will stop many times along the way. I have seen a hunted hare stop and lick herself, and take a nibble of grass for a minute or so, before bounding along again when she heard the hounds.
You tend to find that the foxes you catch are not the ones that run in a straight line and cover the most distance-these more often than not get away. It is the foxes that take shorter, but more wiggling and winding routes that get caught by hounds, and foxes are often caught when they stop in a piece of covert and think that they are safe, or if they make a mistake and run back towards the hounds.

It cannot, as far as we are aware perceive death.

I hope that clears things up for you!

 

[Sarah Sum1]

I don't think what the fox feels, percieves or thinks about can be debated. It's not possible to know.

I used to get so angry at the thought of foxhunting. It wasn't until I joined this forum, that I learnt nothing is black and white.

I don't agree with fox hunting with hounds, but refrain from having too much of an opinion because I really don't know all the facts.

 

[Star_Chaser]

Of course the fox could returned to the wild. Even if handled they do release sites all the time at tiggywinckles they have release pens which make birds and animals have very little contact before returning to wild again.

I say brave woman , might be a little risky but well done.

I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another. We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed. Its the same for many of our wild species both natural and introduced like the red and grey squirrel as an example.

Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land that has multiple uses usually without the permission of the landowner. In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads. They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.

I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land management requires making decisions that we do not wish to take but have to to maintain a balance.

 

[cptrayes]

How little you understand the thinking process of an animal. That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them, then they would, as would most humans, acquiesce and abandon flight.

Why on earth would they abandon flight? Most humans do NOT aquiesce or we would not have had two world wars and humans that I know do not abandon flight in the face of overwhelming danger either.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. The fox is NOT aware of itself being hunted for the majority of the time. The fox runs because that is the natural response for a wild animal when faced with noise and disturbance. The sound of the horn and the hounds means little to the fox other than a noise that needs to be moved away from.

When I hunted fox, the fox ran because it had a pack of hounds in sight behind it. It had its ears pinned flat to its head and it was running for its life. And when the hounds caught it they tore it to shreds.

Plenty of foxes are perfectly well aware of being hunted, and all those that are killed are aware of being hunted, if only at the end stage of the hunt.

It cannot, as far as we are aware perceive death.

That may be your belief. It is not mine. I believe all pray animals are aware of the concept of dying at the hands of a predator. They are not aware of the state of being dead, but that does not mean that they do not fear the process of becoming dead.

I hope that clears things up for you!

I hope you can stop being patronising now

 

[Sarah Sum1]

I too, do not believe that there are many living beings that would just 'acquiesce' and accept death in a situation where you are being chased. There is either fight or flight in most cases and the will for any being to cling onto life is more powerful than the urge to stop, accept and give up would be.

Not sure where you got your info on most humans doing so. Humans are remarkable in their will to survive, as are most living beings.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another..

Just because humans have * taken over* the land and laid * so called claim to it* and are destroying the land with buildings refineries etc does not mean we own it mother nature created the land sea and air for animals/ mammals etc to run free as they choose too. She can destroy it too

Wild is wild means not domesticated.


Are you saying birds cannot be set free into the air because we claim it with planes helicopters etc?? NO!.

.

We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed..

that is because humans have destroyed them all or they died out in the past by mother nature.

Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land

As I said which humans have chosen to use for their means

In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads.

Well that goes for every animal in the land where humans live close to nature , deaths happen.


Bears
wolves
tiger
lions
coyote

all have killed humans dogs etc because humans have encroached close to where they live

They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.

Well that is mother natures way survival of the fittest

I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land

We human's might think its *our * land but every living creature alive to day places some part in the eco system . We humans destroy the balance in so many ways.



Bringing creature to uk which our not native Like the squirrel as u per say.

Killing of endangered species like rhino

Yes we try to preserve some species which would other wise die out.


At6 the end of the day if it had not been for humans with their hounds flushing out this fox it would have carried out its life as nature intended

 

[weebarney]

I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another. We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed. Its the same for many of our wild species both natural and introduced like the red and grey squirrel as an example.

Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land that has multiple uses usually without the permission of the landowner. In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads. They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.

I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land management requires making decisions that we do not wish to take but have to to maintain a balance.

definaition of a wild animal -Wildlife includes all non-domesticated plants, animals and other organisms. Just because humans poke their nose in does not make somewhere or something not wild.

 

[weebarney]

oh my god the people who are on here who believe animals are so stupid they arent aware of death are seriously deluded. If people or animals were not aware of the threat of death or serious injury then we would all have died out very quickly.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Sorry the whole video just does not make sence to me - and i sit on the fence where hunting is.

The fox looks drugged or tame to me.... it looks like it has just been shoved down on the ground and is totally bemused at where it is.

I think the hounds were exceptionally well behaved - try and get a rat off our pair or jack russells and you would have had more fuss.

Nothing adds up - it just does not

 

[happyhunter123]

When I hunted fox, the fox ran because it had a pack of hounds in sight behind it. It had its ears pinned flat to its head and it was running for its life. And when the hounds caught it they tore it to shreds.

Well if it was terrified when being hunted, surely it wouldn't produce a scent? When a fox gets a fright, for example if a foot follower steps out in front of it and it is headed it stops producing scent, a useful survival adaption. I think its due to the rush of adrenaline. A 'terrified' fox would therefore not produce a scent.

As for having the pack in sight behind it, surely as an ex foxhunter you would know that that is not always the case. The fox can be a good distance ahead of the pack, except when it is found or if it about to be caught. It doesn't need to be very close because hounds hunt by scent, not sight!

That may be your belief. It is not mine. I believe all pray animals are aware of the concept of dying at the hands of a predator. They are not aware of the state of being dead, but that does not mean that they do not fear the process of becoming dead.

It's not really my 'belief'-scientists think that no animals except for cetaceans and some primates can preconceive death. But yes, they are all adapted to run from danger, and they do it on a daily basis.

 

[happyhunter123]

definaition of a wild animal -Wildlife includes all non-domesticated plants, animals and other organisms. Just because humans poke their nose in does not make somewhere or something not wild.

You could, of course, argue that we haven't poked our noses in and that we, as animals are part of nature already! Anyway...

That is true, but so much of land on earth is human created or human managed. Pretty much everywhere in the UK is human created and human managed. As much as you might like to believe that the countryside around you is 'wild' it isn't. Was it wild, everywhere would be oak-ash woodland. Much land still is woodland, but those woodlands are still maintained and managed by us.
Just because habitats are managed by humans doesn't mean that they aren't healthy, bio-diverse areas. For example, if humans take a few large trees out of a forest, a wide variety of small plants, supporting a wider range of animal species. The forest is therefore a better habitat. It's the same with heather moorland, which exists in most places thanks to man. Now, you could take the 'hands off' approach to all of these areas, but you would lose much biodiversity. It's the same with sand dunes. Those managing sand dunes graze them with ponies to prevent the growth of shrub. In true 'nature', the shrub would grow and the rare and delicate species that require open dune to survive would dramatically decrease in number.

A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work-everywhere is human modified and controlled. What I'm ultimately trying to put across is that controlling species isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Manage fox numbers and you protect ground nesting birds etc. In a truly 'unmodified' environment, foxes probably wouldn't be quite as common or as successful as they have been. Foxhunting has had a role to play in this, in the 1800s, we released foxes across the countryside for hunting, and we have always maintained coverts for them to live in so that they can be found easily. That probably isn't a bad thing, it's certainly good for the species, provided that we then control those numbers to ensure that the population is sustainable and is not causing damage to livestock. In fox hunting, you don't want numbers too high anyway because hounds will change foxes too easily. It is beneficial both for us, the farmers and other wildlife to regulate that population.

Foxes have a very important part to play in our ecosystems, but in the environment that we live in management of numbers by any method (not just hunting) can be beneficial to the fox as a species overall (maybe not individuals) and to other species. The fox isn't and never will be in danger of extinction, and so therefore in my view, it is acceptable to manage its population. was it a rare creature, no, of course it wouldn't be right to kill it for our own, or any other species' gain.

Of course, then there are the human impacts from fox predation to think about but that is another matter.
This isn't just a defense of hunting, more a defense of control and management of populations (by any means) as a whole. Those who believe we should just leave foxes alone are anti-shooting or trapping them as well.
Sorry if I've gone completely off topic!!

 

[cptrayes]

Well if it was terrified when being hunted, surely it wouldn't produce a scent?

Does it stop and have a shower before it runs away from the hounds?

When a fox gets a fright, for example if a foot follower steps out in front of it and it is headed it stops producing scent,

And your proof of that? And even if it is correct, I think you'll find that bloodhounds hunt the clean boot, and probably one on a human who also had a shower that morning, but certainly one which is not the least afraid of being killed. All mammals leave scent whether they intend to or not.

A 'terrified' fox would therefore not produce a scent.

I expect even the died in the wool fox hunters are pissing themselves laughing at this explanation

As for having the pack in sight behind it, surely as an ex foxhunter you would know that that is not always the case.

Did I say it was always the case? Of course it is not always the case. But it is often the case and it is 100% of times the case whenever hounds kill a fox. You said the fox was not aware of being hunted. It frequently is.

It's not really my 'belief'-scientists think that no animals except for cetaceans and some primates can preconceive death. But yes, they are all adapted to run from danger, and they do it on a daily basis.

It is your belief, you have said so. It is also the belief of some scientists.

They are not adapted to run "from danger". They would not run from a dangerous cliff edge, a poisonous toad, etc etc. I believe that their behaviour is that they are programmed to fear things which it will help their survival to run from and the fear is what makes them run from those and not other dangers.

Note also that I did not say that any animals can preconceive death. It is my personal belief that no animals can preconceive the idea of being dead, pricipally because no animals other than man appear to make any preparations for being dead, like leaving their relatives their food stores.

It is however my belief that there is lots of evidence that animals fear the process of being killed, and that evidence is in the extreme actions that they will take to avoid it when cues are presented to them that there is a danger that it may happen. My belief is that does not require an understanding of death to fear being eaten by a predator.

 

[cptrayes]

A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work

Of course it would work.

It just wouldn't look like we humans want the countryside to look like.

And humans aren't actually required for the planet to survive, it would all go on perfectly happily without us, in fact probably a good deal MORE happily for all the other creatures on the planet barring a few pampered pandas and the like.

 

[happyhunter123]

Does it stop and have a shower before it runs away from the hounds?

And your proof of that? And even if it is correct, I think you'll find that bloodhounds hunt the clean boot, and probably one on a human who also had a shower that morning, but certainly one which is not the least afraid of being killed. All animals leave scent whether they intend to or not.

.

You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?

 

[happyhunter123]

Of course it would work.

It just wouldn't look like we humans want the countryside to look like.

And humans aren't actually required for the planet to survive, it would all go on perfectly happily without us, in fact probably a good deal MORE happily for all the other creatures on the planet barring a few pampered pandas and the like.

So are you saying that you would disagree with all species management (plants included) by humans, or can you see any benefit in it (leaving aside hunting, a very very tiny part in the overall topic)? Would you rather an 'unmanaged' countryside? It is most certainly an interesting debate.

 

[cptrayes]

You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?

Can you explain to me how the fox takes a shower? Would you want it lying on your bed at home? I have an aquaintance with "clean" pet foxes that live in the house. They stink to high heaven. A human could scent them, never mind a dog.

 

[happyhunter123]

Can you explain to me how the fox takes a shower? Would you want it lying on your bed at home? I have an aquaintance with pet foxes that live in the house. They stink to high heaven. A human could scent them, never mind a dog.

Well then why does it happen? How does it stop producing scent? I'm no expert on scent, but I know it happens!
The topic of scent is a mysterious one. Scent can come and go, as you'll know if you've had a bad scenting day out hunting.

 

[cptrayes]

So are you saying that you would disagree with all species management (plants included) by humans, or can you see any benefit in it (leaving aside hunting, a very very tiny part in the overall topic)? Would you rather an 'unmanaged' countryside? It is most certainly an interesting debate.

No, I am making no judgment on how the countryside is managed. I am merely tell you that you were entirely incorrect when you said

A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work

I personally like the countryside around me just as it is. And there has been no organised fox hunting here in over 20 years.

 

[cptrayes]

Well then why does it happen? How does it stop producing scent? I'm no expert on scent, but I know it happens!

You don't know it happens. You only know that the hounds lost the fox scent. Do your hounds never lose scent of the fox at any other time? Of course they do. It's probably completely coincidental.

The topic of scent is a mysterious one. Scent can come and go, as you'll know if you've had a bad scenting day out hunting.

Entirely the point that I am making.

 

[happyhunter123]

No, I am making no judgment on how the countryside is managed.
I personally like the countryside around me just as it is. And there has been no organised fox hunting here in over 20 years.

But I'm talking about the general management of the countryside. The countryside around you is most definitely managed-people fell certain trees, control rabbits etc, just like everywhere. A 'hands-off' approach won't have been taken. I did say that I wasn't talking exclusively about hunting!

You don't know it happens. You only know that the hounds lost the fox scent. Do your hounds never lose scent of the fox at any other time? Of course they do. It's probably completely coincidental.

Yes, I and most experienced in hunting know that it happens. It is not coincidental!

Anyway, enough arguing-you aren't going to a. agree or b. believe me, so it's barely worthwhile
We have moved too far away from the previous topic which was about one particular incident.

 

[EAST KENT]

You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?

Speaking as someone who inadvertantly did just that ,I can assure you the pack heel lined a wee bit ,forward cast,and carried on in full cry.Maybe our Kent foxes are unique